Featured IAF's Fanciful Ambitions Now Risk Exceeding India's Declining Defence Budget

[Adonis]

And tell us how this is going to happen with the Indian economy shrinking 25%? I guess India gov will just further increase the budget deficit.

Economies of Most of the countries is shrinking...India is not alone...but then look at the possible recovery prospects.....

India: Economy

The current and projected economic growth in India, compared with other developing countries in South Asia.

www.adb.org

The World in 2050

The report sets out long-term GDP projections for 32 of the largest economies in the world over the period to 2050.

www.pwc.com

 

[Figaro]

Economies of Most of the countries is shrinking...India is not alone...but then look at the possible recovery prospects.....

India: Economy

The current and projected economic growth in India, compared with other developing countries in South Asia.

www.adb.org

The World in 2050

The report sets out long-term GDP projections for 32 of the largest economies in the world over the period to 2050.

www.pwc.com

The problem is India's decline is one of the world's worst ... and this is to mention an already weak economy prior to the coronavirus.

 

[Adonis]

The problem is India's decline is one of the world's worst ... and this is to mention an already weak economy prior to the coronavirus.

Decline of Canada is close to 39% of GDP and your home state US is 33%...theirs' is worse than India. Notwithstanding IMF's figures indicate India's GDP in positive (growth - 1.9%) compared to most others who have declining/negative growth rates.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD/IND

 

[letsrock]

It 100% is. Inputs and outputs have monetary value, a balance sheet attributes auditable value to assets, which are paid for (in INR or USD) by the customers (IA,IAF, Sri Lanka, etc.)


I don't care if it's one cadre that's more at fault than the other, the whole system of not working to make a profit with assured year-on-year tax investments and jobs that are permanent is designed to fail at all levels, whether it's lazy and inept officers or shop-floor workers.
As far as ubiquitous nature of admin skills being absent is concerned, that's a very bad reading of the two sectors. Here's a simple test - Do a comprehensive internet search of the most profitable Indian companies, and then correlate their profit margins with their market position (based on market cap) globally.
What you'd find is a tight correlation between profit margins and global market performance, and that all of these companies would be Indian private firms that hire from IITs and IIMs.


Have you ever stepped foot inside a PSU? If you do, the first dominant thing that you'd notice is calendars and posters of OBC and SC/ST group affiliations plastered across cubicles.
I think you are too prejudiced to be objective. What do you mean by corporate baniyas? Is there an entry barrier that stops you from working for Infosys, Tata or Reliance?

You are simply regurgitating capitalism lectures meant for another society (western) to a primitive society like India.

You already fixed your blame - govt ownership - based not on actual observation but western capitalism theories which work there not in india. In most countries arms are still made by government entities such as in Russia, China, Turkey, Singapore etc and they succeeded. So your "destined to fail" is already a bunk theory.

Other than software vendors who are basically extenstions of american workforce and therefore forced to abide by american management principles all other indian corporates are more or less failures. Many of them succeed only through govt handouts (like reliance/airtel) or bank scams.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

just chill. If you knew my designation you would not be saying that ,

WOW!! Thanks. Now I will start following your posts.

- PRTP GWD

 

[paritosh]

You are simply regurgitating capitalism lectures meant for another society (western) to a primitive society like India.

I have no idea what that meant. Dont get fixated on labels, look at the merit of the arguments.

You already fixed your blame - govt ownership - based not on actual observation but western capitalism theories which work there not in india. In most countries arms are still made by government entities such as in Russia, China, Turkey, Singapore etc and they succeeded. So your "destined to fail" is already a bunk theory.

Name companies, let's talk case-by-case.

Most humans are employed in the primary sector does that mean that you aspire to become a farmer? (not that there is anything wrong with that). You are looking at the wrong section of the bell curve to find an aspirational template.
Why not focus on most successful companies that are in the business instead?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/10/top-10-defense-contractors-in-the-world.html

As you can see in the link above, there's only one state-owned corporation (an important distinction as OFB is not even a corporation) in the top 10 defense manufacturers in the world and at number 10.

The math is basic here, Privately managed companies > PSUs and Global PSUs > Indian PSUs

Among PSUs, Indian PSU industrial indicators are ridiculously low when compared to those in other left-leaning economies.
Read this --> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-psu-models/articleshow/36215704.cms?from=mdr

And this --> https://www.financialexpress.com/op...ore-style-model-of-efficient-control/1854834/

Other than software vendors who are basically extenstions of american workforce and therefore forced to abide by american management principles all other indian corporates are more or less failures. Many of them succeed only through govt handouts (like reliance/airtel) or bank scams.

Indian software firms export services, when you work in a market, you adhere to the guidelines and regulations. A supply chain partner, by that logic, can be considered an extension of an industrial customer's operations.

You are moving the goal post again. If Govt. handouts is an issue, then you obviously can't support PSUs that don't even feature in the list of top global Indian companies, while draining the govt. coffers.
Let's go case by case, name companies that feature in the list of most profitable entities that you have an issue with and let's do a thorough analysis.

 

[letsrock]

I have no idea what that meant. Dont get fixated on labels, look at the merit of the arguments.


Name companies, let's talk case-by-case.

Most humans are employed in the primary sector does that mean that you aspire to become a farmer? (not that there is anything wrong with that). You are looking at the wrong section of the bell curve to find an aspirational template.
Why not focus on most successful companies that are in the business instead?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/10/top-10-defense-contractors-in-the-world.html

As you can see in the link above, there's only one state-owned corporation (an important distinction as OFB is not even a corporation) in the top 10 defense manufacturers in the world and at number 10.

The math is basic here, Privately managed companies > PSUs and Global PSUs > Indian PSUs

Among PSUs, Indian PSU industrial indicators are ridiculously low when compared to those in other left-leaning economies.
Read this --> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-psu-models/articleshow/36215704.cms?from=mdr

And this --> https://www.financialexpress.com/op...ore-style-model-of-efficient-control/1854834/


Indian software firms export services, when you work in a market, you adhere to the guidelines and regulations. A supply chain partner, by that logic, can be considered an extension of an industrial customer's operations.

You are moving the goal post again. If Govt. handouts is an issue, then you obviously can't support PSUs that don't even feature in the list of top global Indian companies, while draining the govt. coffers.
Let's go case by case, name companies that feature in the list of most profitable entities that you have an issue with and let's do a thorough analysis.

Again you are simply extrapolating structures in western countries to india and giving prescriptions to india. It wont work - western countries are nations and their structures are based on existence of rational individuals. In india both are hard to get, rational due to large number of illiterates and superstitions, and individual because most indians live as extensions of their caste not as individuals.

Most indians love to talk to death about "models" and some gotcha scenarios despite failing again and again. For eg. slow industrial growth is blamed on labor laws and environmental laws in private sector - really ? What environment laws in a country which is arguably the filthiest in the world.

I can see you are earnest and everything but you obviously have no clue about india.

 

[paritosh]

Again you are simply extrapolating structures in western countries to india and giving prescriptions to india. It wont work - western countries are nations and their structures are based on existence of rational individuals. In india both are hard to get, rational due to large number of illiterates and superstitions, and individual because most indians live as extensions of their caste not as individuals.

Paritally agree with what you wrote. Education, in the fullness of time, is the only true enabler here. The idea is to focus on imbibing an entrepreneurial spirit in the population as well as a pursuit for perfection.
China and Japan and the Asian tigers are the best examples of keeping your culture while leveraging western business concepts. It's not a cultural displacement phenomena.

Most indians love to talk to death about "models" and some gotcha scenarios despite failing again and again. For eg. slow industrial growth is blamed on labor laws and environmental laws in private sector - really ? What environment laws in a country which is arguably the filthiest in the world.

What do you mean by "models"?Business models? Operating models? Revenue models?
If you believe in strategic planning, you can't avoid models and it's definitely not an Indian thing. Indians, on the contrary are notorious for not engineering their decisions very well.
I don't know which Indian person attributes the blame for the failing industrial output to environment laws.
The reasons are mostly around very poor literacy levels and throughput (Net value added per worker).
To put it simply, our workers take longer time to produce very little, with a lot more defects.
Privately managed businesses can weed the worst out from the generally bad base of their workforce.

I can see you are earnest and everything but you obviously have no clue about india.

Having spent a considerable amount of time providing outside consultation to PSUs as well as Indian businesses, I would like to disagree. I can share a few industry whitepapers that I have authored if you want.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

The problem is India's decline is one of the world's worst ... and this is to mention an already weak economy prior to the coronavirus.

 

[SrNair]

Really you know something i dont?

Dont care.
Our neighbours are in hallucination.The way we deals with China is giving them an emotional outburst because they sensed the reality that they are nothing in front of us .
So this obsession and teaches Indian about Indian budget

 

[SrNair]

Now you are referring to the current lot who get their daily news feed from whats app and republic. Going by that ,we are stronger then the US.
God help you if you disagree with their point of view, lacking facts, which was not a part of their daily diarrhea on their local lotus group , they attack the person and question him and call him anti national.
I would not be surprised is this govt looses more land to the Chinese and the bhakths blame the opposition. Not one has the courage to stand up and say the emperor is naked!!

Just asking to you a simple question.
Before this guy coming to power .
The border with China was quiet .
Why?
Because they had loved the previous govt very much .

 

[Mjunaid955]

I think India rather depending on different projects and fighter jets. Should build a half a squadron of Russian fighter jets and a half from the US, and if they choose US F- 16 variant will be a very good choice it can serve as a benchmark for future American fighter jets. India already has very warm relations with Israel so they won't object to f-35 as Israel did against UAE. 27th Feb exposed IAF, but they can with future investment create a formidable force.

How 27 Feb 2019 exposed the Indian Air Force? - Indus Watch

On 27th Feb 2019 Pakistan Air Force claimed to have shot down two Indian Air Force Fighter aircrafts Mig-21, and SU 30 MKI.

induswatch.com

 

[letsrock]

Paritally agree with what you wrote. Education, in the fullness of time, is the only true enabler here. The idea is to focus on imbibing an entrepreneurial spirit in the population as well as a pursuit for perfection.
China and Japan and the Asian tigers are the best examples of keeping your culture while leveraging western business concepts. It's not a cultural displacement phenomena.



What do you mean by "models"?Business models? Operating models? Revenue models?
If you believe in strategic planning, you can't avoid models and it's definitely not an Indian thing. Indians, on the contrary are notorious for not engineering their decisions very well.
I don't know which Indian person attributes the blame for the failing industrial output to environment laws.
The reasons are mostly around very poor literacy levels and throughput (Net value added per worker).
To put it simply, our workers take longer time to produce very little, with a lot more defects.
Privately managed businesses can weed the worst out from the generally bad base of their workforce.


Having spent a considerable amount of time providing outside consultation to PSUs as well as Indian businesses, I would like to disagree. I can share a few industry whitepapers that I have authored if you want.

It is not education - india is essentialy a crooked state - it is structured that way. Is it lack of education that makes india oppress kashmiris ? is it lack of education that even after 60 years only brahmins get to be priests ? its a rotten society wedded to the idea of oppression and racism.

And china and japan did not keep the worst part of their cultures. Japan emperor Meiji ended shogun caste with a fiat and had them shot if they disagreed. Mao hung warlords by the nearest lamposts not like india making zamindars as MPs.

Anyway india is too diverse to be a nation. why do you guys get so twisted about accepting that ?

 

[paritosh]

It is not education - india is essentialy a crooked state - it is structured that way. Is it lack of education that makes india oppress kashmiris ? is it lack of education that even after 60 years only brahmins get to be priests ? its a rotten society wedded to the idea of oppression and racism.

And china and japan did not keep the worst part of their cultures. Japan emperor Meiji ended shogun caste with a fiat and had them shot if they disagreed. Mao hung warlords by the nearest lamposts not like india making zamindars as MPs.

Look mate, the Danes were freakin barbarians in the distant past - look at Denmark now. German tribes across the Danube were the definition of uncivilised people for the Romans. Japan is another example.

Now all these "cultures" were called various names and were thought to be irredemable at the time, but they paint a very different picture now don't they? Japanese culture went through a paradigm shift before and after the war. They butchered their way across their conquests in Asia not long ago, and now they are considered a model state.
Education (and not just getting past K-12 and beyond) drives culture, if you can't see the signs of social changes been driven through education in India then I can't help you.
These changes are slow in India because of the Nehru and Co.'s gamble in choosing dmeocracy in a clearly stupid/illiterate nation. They had the vision that rapid penetration of education will raise the bar across the board and lead to people democratically making better decisions. You know that it didn't pay off.
Modi unfortunately represents the true India, which is still illiterate largely, and hasn't been able to shake-off casteism and other social fault-lines.
This doesn't mean that it's all doom and gloom.

Anyway india is too diverse to be a nation. why do you guys get so twisted about accepting that ?

If that's meant for me to respond to then I don't recall having a conversation about this topic?

As far as I am concerned, I look at India as a glorious experiment of how humans with all their diversity can still find a way to be united by a common vision. Modi govt. is obviously not making a net positive contribution to that right now. If that experiment fails, then maybe having more autonomy given to smaller more homogenous pockets may help improve the quality of life for people, but we are nowhere there yet, and we don't have good precedents to follow as well. Pakistan was created on that idea and I don't think it's a good role model in governance and prosperity enhancement, not now at least.

 

[letsrock]

Look mate, the Danes were freakin barbarians in the distant past - look at Denmark now. German tribes across the Danube were the definition of uncivilised people for the Romans. Japan is another example.

Now all these "cultures" were called various names and were thought to be irredemable at the time, but they paint a very different picture now don't they? Japanese culture went through a paradigm shift before and after the war. They butchered their way across their conquests in Asia not long ago, and now they are considered a model state.
Education (and not just getting past K-12 and beyond) drives culture, if you can't see the signs of social changes been driven through education in India then I can't help you.
These changes are slow in India because of the Nehru and Co.'s gamble in choosing dmeocracy in a clearly stupid/illiterate nation. They had the vision that rapid penetration of education will raise the bar across the board and lead to people democratically making better decisions. You know that it didn't pay off.
Modi unfortunately represents the true India, which is still illiterate largely, and hasn't been able to shake-off casteism and other social fault-lines.
This doesn't mean that it's all doom and gloom.


If that's meant for me to respond to then I don't recall having a conversation about this topic?

As far as I am concerned, I look at India as a glorious experiment of how humans with all their diversity can still find a way to be united by a common vision. Modi govt. is obviously not making a net positive contribution to that right now. If that experiment fails, then maybe having more autonomy given to smaller more homogenous pockets may help improve the quality of life for people, but we are nowhere there yet, and we don't have good precedents to follow as well. Pakistan was created on that idea and I don't think it's a good role model in governance and prosperity enhancement, not now at least.

Denmark, germany, france, england, hungary, greece, italian, japan etc are all linguistic states built upon the commonality of people. Whereas India is a bureacratic state apparatus left by British with no real commonality. "Indian" is essential a slur word for browns (apart from more well known people like Arabs) like N word for blacks. There are east indies (indonesians), west indies, indians in americas etc. It does not donate a nationality or anything. Just brown people with no real identifiable culture.

Just because you have some state apparatus (often racist like caste based military regiments) does not mean you start torturing yourself in to building a nation around it . It doesnt work. Essentially indian nation is bunch of castes/families trying to control the british apparatus and enjoying the benefits. To control/win elections they throw some spin on ram mandir/muslim demonization etc.

THe enormous confusion evident within you (like from DP of che while supporting modi) is because you never take a good clear view of india with a proper moral framework. You developed all these little escape routes - oh we will be like Denmark, we can be like china, this is just like japan then - instead of taking a good look at what actually is. Only grief will be your end result my friend.