IAF to upgrade SU-30 fighter aircraft

[anathema]

Irbis was an option for MKI upgrade from long ago thats why I mentioned it. But why do you think that the Al-31FP of the MKI cannot be upgraded? Or MKI cannot be modified to accommodate 117S?

As far as I know Bars is a PESA radar, so how one can just simply 'upgrade' a PESA into an AESA??!!!! It has be a new radar.

AL-31FP cannot be upgraded because there are no upgrade programmes going on for AL 31 FP ! If Russians are to upgrade AL 31FP then it needs to provide the same performance characteristics compared to 117S --since this is what is being used to power IBRIS.

Why MKI cannot be modified to upgrade to 117S ?

Sure they can -- they might even consider it. But in my humble opinion it is unlikely --
We all know how much testing an aircraft undergoes when air intake is changed ? Now if we are to fit a new engine (117S) on MKI --
this would mean structural modification - strengthening of airframe (since 117S is heavy) ,
air intake modification,
I can only guess that there is change in length of the 117S engines possibly changing dimensions of Su 30 MKI .......

Then there is engine maintenance issue --

124 su 30 MKI's produced with AL 31F engines -- We already have too many types of aircraft and on types of engines for essentially the same aircraft ....Engineers will try to become pilots in IAF ... ...


So the answer to your question -- Yes it is possible but the cost , time effort and complexities involved makes it not so attractive.

With regards AESA --- Sancho had said once that AESA option is being developed --this is totally different from ibris -- I was suggesting that option...

Mikhail pogosyan ruled out Ibris due to engine issue in a recent interview --the interview was posted in this very forum..i will try to search the link and paste it here..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...likely-test-fired-next-week-3.html#post978254

oooopss-- sorry...i didnt know you had replied --thought the thread was dead...i am very poor in tracking replies to my posts....

 

[Kinetic]

AL-31FP cannot be upgraded because there are no upgrade programmes going on for AL 31 FP ! If Russians are to upgrade AL 31FP then it needs to provide the same performance characteristics compared to 117S --since this is what is being used to power IBRIS.

Why MKI cannot be modified to upgrade to 117S ?

Sure they can -- they might even consider it. But in my humble opinion it is unlikely --
We all know how much testing an aircraft undergoes when air intake is changed ? Now if we are to fit a new engine (117S) on MKI --
this would mean structural modification - strengthening of airframe (since 117S is heavy) ,
air intake modification,
I can only guess that there is change in length of the 117S engines possibly changing dimensions of Su 30 MKI .......

Then there is engine maintenance issue --

124 su 30 MKI's produced with AL 31F engines -- We already have too many types of aircraft and on types of engines for essentially the same aircraft ....Engineers will try to become pilots in IAF ... ...


So the answer to your question -- Yes it is possible but the cost , time effort and complexities involved makes it not so attractive.

Dude I am not going into details but 117S should be there as a part of MKI upgrade and NPO Saturn already offered it. There is no other choice or option.

With regards AESA --- Sancho had said once that AESA option is being developed --this is totally different from ibris -- I was suggesting that option...

Mikhail pogosyan ruled out Ibris due to engine issue in a recent interview --the interview was posted in this very forum..i will try to search the link and paste it here..

A PESA radar like Bars cannot be 'upgraded' into an AESA radar because PESA and AESA are completely different. AESA needs haundreds of mini T/R modules while PESA has a central large T/R modules along with a feedback network.

So it must be Irbis-E plus 117S for MKI.

 

[sancho]

A PESA radar like Bars cannot be 'upgraded' into an AESA radar because PESA and AESA are completely different. AESA needs haundreds of mini T/R modules while PESA has a central large T/R modules along with a feedback network.

So it must be Irbis-E plus 117S for MKI.

Bars' upgrade potential

...Moreover, it should be noted that upon comple¬tion of the BARS Phase 1 upgrading program, a changeover to the AESA will be made. Then, both AESA- and PESA-equipped aircraft can be operated concurrently.

Defunct Humanity: 'Bars' upgrade potential

 

[Kinetic]

Defunct Humanity: 'Bars' upgrade potential

sancho can you pls say something how a pesa can be upgraded into an aesa? though the name Bars may be same but the radar itself has to be completely new. T/R modules (basic building block), cooler, exciter, receiver, radar computer, beam former all are different!

 

[sancho]

sancho can you pls say something how a pesa can be upgraded into an aesa? though the name Bars may be same but the radar itself has to be completely new. T/R modules (basic building block), cooler, exciter, receiver, radar computer, beam former all are different!

But still it will be based on the same PESA radar and not only the Russians are doing that, the French also upgraded the present RBE 2 PESA into a new AESA radar varient for the Rafale:

The RBE2-AA radar system is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar system derived from the Rafale's RBE2 radar. It replaces the mechanically steered array antenna by electronically steering exerted by up to several thousand of transmit/receive modules which enable maximum performance and versatility as well as enhanced reliability. The improved RBE2-AA radar system is will be available beginning in 2012 for the Rafale fighter-aircraft owned by the French Air Force, Navy and export customers.

RBE2-AA


Here something about Zhuk AE:

The so-called ‘first stage’ Zhuk-AE (also designated FGA-29 with 1,064 T/R modules) that was shown in Bengaluru in February 2007 was a modernised version of the mechanically-scanned Zhuk-ME radar fitted with an AESA antenna. It retained the existing computing system with data processor, signal processor and software, as well as the clock generator. The Zhuk-AE/FGA-29 radar can be series-produced by retrofitting the present Zhuk-ME radar. Phazotron will probably offer such an option for Zhuk-ME users such as Yemen and Eritrea...
...The ‘second stage’ radar, designated Zhuk-AE/FGA-35, will be fitted to the production MiG-35 M-MRCA. It will receive a new computing system and new multifunction wideband generator. The FGA-35 will feature a 700mm-diameter antenna with 1,100 T/R modules. Phazotron JSC is now seeking the best method of heat dissipation--a critical issue for the success of future developments...
...Tikhomirov NIIP, on the other hand, is busy developing its X-band AESA radar for fitment on to both the Su-35BM and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will be co-developed by Russia’s United Aircraft Corp and India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Thus far, three prototype AESAs have been built and are now undergoing laboratory tests, with the first functional unit due to enter the flight-test phase in 2010, and the series-produced radars entering service by 2015. The AESA’s front-end antenna array will also be offered for integration with the existing NO-11M ‘Bars’ PESA radars by 2014.

:: TEMPUR OFFICIAL WEBSITE - AESA Radar Options Displayed

As you can see, the modifications from MM, or PESA radars to AESA versions seems to be similar, so I don't see why that should not be possible fot Bars too. I can't say anything regarding the power issue, but the S117 is on offer as an upgrade for MKI too (stated on the official Saturn site), the question is will a complete re-engine will be done now, or just an upgrade of the AL 31. All latest news about the upgrade doesn't mentioned new engines so far, so we have to wait for more details till we can clear that, however AESA radar is already pretty clear.

 

[anathema]

Dude I am not going into details but 117S should be there as a part of MKI upgrade and NPO Saturn already offered it. There is no other choice or option.

Mikhail pogosyan is on record stating that to upgrade su 30 with Irbis is a pain due to the engine issue (he however said it very diplomatically)....the sad part is -- the source was pasted in this very forum --- but due to jackasses who keep on opening thread without searching if the topic already exists -- the thread is deleted..anyways i will search for it once agian.

 

[saurabh]

But still it will be based on the same PESA radar and not only the Russians are doing that, the French also upgraded the present RBE 2 PESA into a new AESA radar varient for the Rafale:



RBE2-AA


Here something about Zhuk AE:


As you can see, the modifications from MM, or PESA radars to AESA versions seems to be similar, so I don't see why that should not be possible fot Bars too. I can't say anything regarding the power issue, but the S117 is on offer as an upgrade for MKI too (stated on the official Saturn site), the question is will a complete re-engine will be done now, or just an upgrade of the AL 31. All latest news about the upgrade doesn't mentioned new engines so far, so we have to wait for more details till we can clear that, however AESA radar is already pretty clear.

It retained the existing computing system with data processor, signal processor and software, as well as the clock generator.

All the systems, be it source, the detector, the cooling system etc have to be changed. Except for above mentioned systems, is there any other commonality between AESA and PESA? When we say upgrade, we generally mean replacing a few parts from a system. But here, most of the system is changed. In fact, only a few parts are retained. Would this be still called an upgrade?

 

[sancho]

All the systems, be it source, the detector, the cooling system etc have to be changed. Except for above mentioned systems, is there any other commonality between AESA and PESA? When we say upgrade, we generally mean replacing a few parts from a system. But here, most of the system is changed. In fact, only a few parts are retained. Would this be still called an upgrade?

Seems like that, because it is not a completelly new developed radar and is based on the older version.

 

[Dash]

Seems like that, because it is not a completelly new developed radar and is based on the older version.

Sancho -

when the upgraded versions are coming to us?, I hope its not very late. I want the Sukhoi's to field an AESA before the MRCA winner does it.

 

[Sri]

Janes -
"The 'Product 117S' is an in-depth upgrade of the AL-31F, featuring a 14.5 tonne [31,967 lb -Ed.] thrust, which is 2 tonnes above the baseline"

"The 117 is the thoroughly modernised AL-31F with a new fan of diameter increased from 905 to 932 mm ([36.69 in, -Ed.] and with maximum afterburning thrust increased from 122.58 kN to 137.3 kN [30,866 lb, Ed.] (or 142.2 kN [31,968 lb, Ed.] at special rating)."

" The designer's main objective is to increase service life from 1,500 to 4,000 hours, and to increase TBO from 500 hours to 1,000. After meeting these parameters, expected in 2008-09, the engine will be manufactured in series as the 117S (S for series) or AL-41F1. NPO Saturn's proposal has the advantage that "present AL-31F or FP engines can be upgraded to 117S standard by replacing 25-30 per cent of engine elements".

This looks really interesting

 

[Avatar]

Why new 42 sukhoi 30mki cost 78million each ????

Maybe because they are modified extensively to carry the airborne version of Brahmos.

 

[sancho]

Sancho -

when the upgraded versions are coming to us?, I hope its not very late. I want the Sukhoi's to field an AESA before the MRCA winner does it.

Good question, Brahmos capability is reported to be ready by 2012, while Astra, Nirbhay and the indigenous LGB are still in development, I guess they will be integrated too.
AESA upgrade for Bars like some reports hinted are possible, but it's not clear when it could be ready, not to mention what other avionic parts will be changed.
Engine is still a big ? but I guess integrating composites and RAM materials into the airframe will be the easiest part, with experience from Su 35 for example.
Overall I don't expect them to be inducted before MMRCA, imo all hints like 2014/15 is they key time frame for IAF. Upgraded MKIs, new LCA MK2s and N-LCAs, new MMRCAs, MRTA..., will be hard to wait so long.

 

[Kinetic]

But still it will be based on the same PESA radar and not only the Russians are doing that, the French also upgraded the present RBE 2 PESA into a new AESA radar varient for the Rafale:



RBE2-AA


Here something about Zhuk AE:



:: TEMPUR OFFICIAL WEBSITE - AESA Radar Options Displayed

You can keep existing systems like mentioned in the link but the main building block of AESA that is T/R modules, cooling mechanism and many other systems are totally different. Actually PESA itself is different from AESA. AESA can be called as hundreds of small PESA radars in it.

As you can see, the modifications from MM, or PESA radars to AESA versions seems to be similar, so I don't see why that should not be possible fot Bars too. I can't say anything regarding the power issue, but the S117 is on offer as an upgrade for MKI too (stated on the official Saturn site), the question is will a complete re-engine will be done now, or just an upgrade of the AL 31. All latest news about the upgrade doesn't mentioned new engines so far, so we have to wait for more details till we can clear that, however AESA radar is already pretty clear.

Bars can be transformed into AESA but cannot be upgraded if they wanna keep the same name. The working mechanism of AESA and PESA also different.

1) You need single large source of power in PESA while large amount of small sources in AESA.

2) Average power needed is much higher in PESA than AESA.

3) You need single N HPA T/R modules (high power amplifier) in PESA and you need hundreds of N-HPA in AESA.

4) PESA needs mechanical/waveguide switches while AESA allows you to have solid state switches.

5) Appropriate cooling mechanism for AESA.

If you change all these the radar become a new one! So as you said we better wait in this regard.

 

[Kinetic]

Mikhail pogosyan is on record stating that to upgrade su 30 with Irbis is a pain due to the engine issue (he however said it very diplomatically)....the sad part is -- the source was pasted in this very forum --- but due to jackasses who keep on opening thread without searching if the topic already exists -- the thread is deleted..anyways i will search for it once agian.

But the same engine of SU-35 ie 117S can be fitted into MKI according to the manufacturer's claim. As Sri's Janes article says its also possible to upgrade AL-31FP to 117S with 25-30 % modifications. So we better wait in this matter.

 

[sancho]

Russia, India To Finalize Fighter Upgrade

Jul 8, 2010

By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru

A high-level team from Rosoboronexport of Russia will visit India this month to finalize the technical aspects of the upgrade program for the Su-30 MKI fighter.

Avionics and radar are two major systems likely to be improved. A technical team from the Defense Research and Development Organization, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) will represent the Indian side.

A source tells AVIATION WEEK that upgrade discussions have been underway for the last two years. Russian bureaucratic procedures are said to be the main cause for the delay, while the Indian side is said to be putting pressure on the Russians to wind up the talks quickly.

“Nearly 100 Su-30 MKIs will come for [upgrade] during overhaul,” the official says. “Every 10 years various systems need to be upgraded to current standards. However, the latter aircraft that are still to join the IAF will not be included in this module. They will probably come for a second stage upgrade later.”

The IAF version of the BrahMos supersonic missile is expected to join the Su-30 MKI soon.

Meanwhile, another Russian team is set to visit India this month to finalize the purchase of 42 additional Su-30 MKIs for the IAF. These are beyond those already contracted by HAL from Russia under license production. The Sukhois are built under license at HAL’s five divisions — Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa — and are later assembled, integrated, test flown and delivered from the HAL Nasik Division. Fifty Sukhois initially came from Russia between 2002 and 2005.

“These additional platforms are expected to be delivered after the completion of 140 + 40 aircraft by 2015 under the compressed delivery schedule program,” the official said. “Five divisions of HAL will be participating in this raw material phase manufacturing of additional Sukhois.”

HAL’s deliveries began in 2004-2005, and so far 74 Sukhois have been rolled out from the Nasik Division. HAL expects to deliver 28 aircraft this year. The fighter is currently priced at Rs 240 crore ($51.4 million) and it will climb to about Rs 330 crore when the additional orders come in. The total value of those orders might go beyond Rs 15,000 crore considering the spare, engines, and ground handling equipment.

So all 100 will be upgraded and still the main upgrades seems to be radar and avionics.