IAF plane in pakistan photo shown to COAS USA

[Jihad]

Of course you have to understand The difference between the real world and fantasy worlds where The MKI can take on the death star.
This is not a game...shooting down a Indian aircraft at the time would have likely provoked a war. but the lock on would have been good enough. a bit like Hull photos the subs in the cold war used to take.

LOL, we all know the MKI can take on the death star..
Great post..

 

[Hellfire]

That was a chase behind like a dog fight (F-16 hcased back SU-30 to border), dont urge before understanding.
Ohghohohohoohohohoohohohh !!!!!!......Are you normal?
May be u have any dream. Dont dreem so much.
Is it any upcoming Indian movie?
Ur quote shows that IAF is so much unprofessional.
Please take this forum serious, we are not here for jokes, prove ur self with references.

A chase behind like a dogfight?

Few Points to note:

1. The alleged violation took place in post-Mumbai scenario, where there were alert PA/PAF AD Arty Assets in place as also PAF was in on round the clock CAPs as per your own media. So in such a case, any Indian AC would have been shot down had the trangression took place to the extent that you had time to chase it. Even 2 minutes means that the AC would have been greater than 10 kms into Pakistani Airspace, which any Pakistani serviceman will confirm to you is impossible based on their deployment patterns of Anti-Air assets!!!

2. A Su-30 will actively deploy own jammers, so to obtain a "lock-on" in longer ranges is impossible in a short span of time. And its impossible that the Su-30 was inside Pakistani territory with its RADAR shut off that it could not detect F-16 creeping behind it and was taken in a visual mode.

The contention holds if, as I earlier stated, that the IAF AC was in own territory but within the 10 km no fly zone as agreed by both countries. Then any CAP of PAF would get a lock on irrespective as IAF AC would not be in opposing territory. So the term "technical violation"

Jokes/dreams and movies these may be your domain, not mine. Kindly do try tpo first appreciate the parameters governing high speed flight and transgressions.

As for Mig-25RB claims ..... it was a regular feature till the Air Craft was retired in 2006, and if you were to google, you would, am sure, come across various sources which will adequately give you the gist of what this aircraft was meant for in IAF.

 

[Hellfire]

You can test our response only so much when the entire PAF is alerted. Mig-25s were no longer in service and mothballed thus the question did not arise of going in any deeper.

precisely what I am trying to drive in, that in a post-Mumbai scenario, it would be suicidal for any IAF AC to cross into Pakistani territory even 4 kms as claimed in previous post, as you know your own AD SOP especially in view of heightened levels of preparedness. As it is, no fly zone within 10 kms of IB would have been violated and then itself your various ground based AD assets would have come into play.

I gave you the example of Mig-25 for that AC was never intercepted and only once detected by your air defences in 1997 when a brief lock was achieved by AD units as it was flying back.

 

[Hellfire]

Hellfire,
Mig25 violated Pakistan Air Space only once before our Nuke Tests..not regularly.

No Saad.

It was a regular feature. The advantage was the operational ceiling and speed, which made it impossible for a lock on or detection because of limitation of the RADARs also.

Even after nuke test it was a regular feature.

The phasing out was due to lack of spares and evolution of better technology. With space based assets being deployed, the need for Mig-25RD was over and as such higher resolution imagery was available with no risk of life/international incident.

 

[Hellfire]

All theoretical. Once what you describe is operational, then we can give it credence. What A-50, may I ask, was around the time of December to provide EW to the MKIs? Secondly, the point is again the same, if you want to test readiness, what difference does it make as to how things are being tracked? If I want to know how quickly IAF would react to an incursion, I would actually fly either close to or across the IB and then see how quickly the hosts converge. I could have the radars maintaining tracks on all of the hosts as they take off from their bases, but that is not the entire idea.

Blain-2

A-50 Beriev "Mainstay" in original configuration, not the Phalcons on IL-76 platforms.

We hold 2(+1?), a necessity till Phalcons were inducted.

Again you have given exactly the same sane suggestion of flying close to border to achieve the aim of plotting AD sites. I agree and was saying exactly the same, and no commander will be foolish to take such a drastic step of violation of airspace if he can achieve the desired objectives by keeping his assets safe.

I agree with your assesment totally. That is exactly my point.

 

[Hellfire]

Two different things here. Mig-21 simply does not have the endurance to be conducting sorties at extended ranges. Its a point defence aircraft and nothing more. Jaguar is no different in terms of its avionics. RWR and self-protection in terms of chaff/flares does not mean that you have effective ELINT capabilities. The only ones in the IAF service which have a decent ECM/ELINT suit are the MKIs (even has a variation of DRFM).

As I have said, you send the aircraft which has the greatest capability to snoop around all the while ensuring that it can extricate itself out of a tough situation. Jaguar and Mig-21 Bison simply don't cut it. The upgraded Jaguars in service with the IAF (Darin II) have nothing but IFF, RWR for self protection and definitely nothing for performing ELINT role. Now I am not debating that IAF could have sent anything, however currently the only reported incursions of the IAF have involved the MKI, M2K (with fulcrums providing back-up).

Actually they are on DARIN III now. That information is old.

As for ELINT capabilities of Jaguar, they have some, and its offshoot of Project Samyukta. The technology evolved is pretty interesting. As such, the information of the same is not on/for public domains, so we will keep that for some later point of time?

 

[Hellfire]

Yes but i'm really amazed with his posts in this thread, I mean..where's the logic?
Perhaps I should've refrained from saying what I said, I was agitated.

Jihad

Have patience, you will appreciate the logic soon enough.

Ideally, if you want to plot your enemy's AD sites/RADARs as also see the combat readiness, the same can be achieved by violating the 10km no fly zone agreed to by both nations. Without the threat of having your own AC shot down or escalating without adequate preparation.

Blain-2 has said the same in his post, a military mind will be able to appreciate the idea. The basic thing is that no military commander will risk his soldier in vain. The objectives can be achieved without ever threatening the life of the pilot in this case.

As such, the violation of 10 km limit was done and IAF agreed to a technical violation. A lock on in that scenario is totally expected and true as the CAP on Pakistani side would automatically track indian ac flying across the border which has no reason to jam their radars as its not on a mission apart from own CAP/ELINT activities.

I understand the workings of services pretty well, and hence speak out of knowledge, not hollywood/bollywood exposure/fantasies. And certainly not out of moronic musings

Thanks

 

[blain2]

Actually they are on DARIN III now. That information is old.

As for ELINT capabilities of Jaguar, they have some, and its offshoot of Project Samyukta. The technology evolved is pretty interesting. As such, the information of the same is not on/for public domains, so we will keep that for some later point of time?

Trust me on this. On an airframe which is 30+ years old, you are not going to pack up 4th gen. ELINT gear because the aircraft is not designed for that. Secondly, I doubt it that Jaguar has anything that new which has to be kept hidden from the public purview in terms of its general capabilities. Certainly nothing more modern than what is on the MKI.

Darin III inclusive provides updated INS Nav attack and night attack capability. Again nothing in the class of ISR capability in the Jaguar.

 

[blain2]

Blain-2

A-50 Beriev "Mainstay" in original configuration, not the Phalcons on IL-76 platforms.

We hold 2(+1?), a necessity till Phalcons were inducted.

Again you have given exactly the same sane suggestion of flying close to border to achieve the aim of plotting AD sites. I agree and was saying exactly the same, and no commander will be foolish to take such a drastic step of violation of airspace if he can achieve the desired objectives by keeping his assets safe.

I agree with your assesment totally. That is exactly my point.

The A-50s in earlier IAF possession were essentially shells. None of the EWarning hardware was operational on these aircraft. Remember all the familiarization that IAF MKI pilots had to undergo in an AEW&CS controlled environment at Red Flag? IAF MKI sqns are virgins when it comes to native AEW controlled operations.

 

[Hellfire]

Trust me on this. On an airframe which is 30+ years old, you are not going to pack up 4th gen. ELINT gear because the aircraft is not designed for that. Secondly, I doubt it that Jaguar has anything that new which has to be kept hidden from the public purview in terms of its general capabilities. Certainly nothing more modern than what is on the MKI.

Darin III inclusive provides updated INS Nav attack and night attack capability. Again nothing in the class of ISR capability in the Jaguar.

Darin III was a correction on Darin II post. Nothing to do with ELINT in that anyways.

Dedicated Jaguars , reconfigured Canberras, Boeing 707s are being operated both by IAF and ARC (Aviation Research Center) purely in ELINT roles. Even Samyukta parameters are not on public domains.

About 30+ year platforms, well 100 were inducted over past couple of years so airframes are pretty air worthy and with better hardware and software.

A-50s were sufficient till Phalcons come being extensively integrated with Aerostat/ELINT ACs, LRTRs, SRTRs and the works. Basically IAF has achieved networking both on Intranet and Internet modes, the second force in Indian Defence Forces after Navy.

As for the "familiarisations" no doubt the experience US has in operating AWACS and AEWS is too extensive, and India has still a long way to go before being able to operate in the said environment, yet the threat posed by PAF can in no way be compared to what was faced in the said exercises by USAF. There is a generational gap between IAF-PAF and USAF with the former two needing a lot of catching up to do.

 

[MZUBAIR]

The topic was

"IAF plane in pakistan photo shown to COAS USA "

and every one knows IAF violated and SU was locked.

Why I waste my time on helfire.
And I advise others too

 

[gubbi]

The topic was

"IAF plane in pakistan photo shown to COAS USA "

and every one knows IAF violated and SU was locked.

Why I waste my time on helfire.
And I advise others too

That's because you cannot logically counter his points/argument. The last resort for individuals such as you is rhetoric!

Hellfire make awesome points and counterpoints and this dude comes up with this. Sorry but had to say this...

 

[MZUBAIR]

That's because you cannot logically counter his points/argument. The last resort for individuals such as you is rhetoric!

Hellfire make awesome points and counterpoints and this dude comes up with this. Sorry but had to say this...

Indian talks for Indian.

I asked him many times to give references wt he says. but he never. so who cares wt he says except Indians to dream

 

[Hellfire]

The topic was

"IAF plane in pakistan photo shown to COAS USA "

and every one knows IAF violated and SU was locked.

Why I waste my time on helfire.
And I advise others too

yet you made this post in contravention of your advice?

anyways, the posts were in line with the spirit of the thread and the logical explanation was taken up and dissected by members who understood my line of posting and adequately rebutted/responded to the same.

appreciation of the concept of conflict management and escalation, an essential to every conflict that is waged, is something which is not easily appreciated by untrained minds, and as such you can be forgiven for totally failing to appreciate how enemy preparedness/defences are probed by professional soldiers, which are in adequate numbers on both Indian and Pakistani sides.

Successful transgressions/violations without casualties have been undertaken by both sides on a regular basis from time to time, be it in air or on ground. The high standards of professionalism exhibited in conduct of such missions (which are anyways always kept out of public domain for obvious reasons) speaks volumes of both sides professional approach.

In addition, the whole exercise, of violation, and the subsequent "lock on" was covert communication, that IAF wanted PAF to know it was ready, and PAF to IAF that it was waiting.

Any Indian AC moving into Pakistani Airspace would have been shot down without any warning if it was within the legal airspace of Pakistan, and India could do naught about it, something like what happened in Atlantique incident.

The services on both sides pretty well understand the risks involved, and treat each other with respect, a respect that only professionals can share and give!

Thanks

 

[Hellfire]

Indian talks for Indian.

I asked him many times to give references wt he says. but he never. so who cares wt he says except Indians to dream

actually quite a few members do get what I was saying and why ... there are lot of things in military operations which are never given out as link ......

its upto you to believe or not!!!!