IAF lost 152 pilots, 534 aircraft, in crashes in past 30 years

[VkdIndian]

The comparison is futile when one air force is actively operating under war conditions such as WoT and in the 80s, Afghan Jihad.

WoT isn’t comparable to wars. There is no opposition against air attacks whatsoever. PAF aircraft have complete control over the air where they were dropping bombs against elements. War is, where entire gamut and capability of a platform is tested and stretched to its limits.

Case being made out of PAF accident rates being only dependent on training when things are better and on non availability of spares when things aren’t good, appears opportunistic.

PAF has had 10 F-16 lost since 1983. IAF has had 11 SU30, lost since 1997. The ratio of the numbers of these aircraft in PAF vs IAF, is 1:3.8. In absolute numbers we can see what looks good and what looks bad. But, better comparison can be done if rates are available which has been done by @MirageBlue few posts back.

From the new C-130J crash to the emergency landing of Apache Ah-64.

What were the circumstances aren’t known. Quoting these isolated incidents is similar to quoting loss of F-35s across the world. Each one had its own unique reasons.

Twin engine aircraft do have better survivability. What if there is a fire in one engine and is out of control? Jaguar is used in roles where it was exposed more to elements like birds etc that could have caused more accidents. How much were they flown and what was the rate is of value. Pure numbers are meaningless exercise.

That is why accident numbers are worst way to compare. When comparing rates of accident too, the secondary analysis is of contributing factors to decide, if the employment strategy is worth it or not. Or a change is required.
Wild animal hit, bird hit, weather, experience level, employment philosophy, age of equipment, training level, pilot mistake, technician mistake etc are few factors that can have varying role in causing a mishap.

IAF has been given $ 6.22 billions (514.85 INR Billions) vs PAF $ 1.427 Billions (323.7 PKR Billions) for 2022-23. IAF had 31 Squadrons vs PAF's 22.

These numbers looked in isolation appear to be completely mismatched. How much of these are for procurement of new weapons, spares, maintaining, salaries, pension etc? You have counted only fighter squadrons. What about other types? India has a much bigger fleet of other types.

I do credit PAF for having a better procurement strategy and timelines compared to what is possible in India.

This thread is purely an attempt to sensationalise an issue that would have been a great topic of discussion, if done with right intent.

 

[TopGun786]

WoT isn’t comparable to wars. There is no opposition against air attacks whatsoever. PAF aircraft have complete control over the air where they were dropping bombs against elements. War is, where entire gamut and capability of a platform is tested and stretched to its limits.

Case being made out of PAF accident rates being only dependent on training when things are better and on non availability of spares when things aren’t good looks opportunistic.

PAF has had 10 F-16 lost since 1994. IAF has had 11 lost since 1997. The ratio of the numbers of these aircraft is 1:3.8. In absolute numbers we can see what looks good and what looks bad. But, I am saying what is bad or good. Better comparison can be done if rates are available which has been done by @MirageBlue few posts back.


What were the circumstances aren’t known. Quoting these isolated incidents is similar to quoting loss of F-35s across the world. Each one had its own unique reasons.

Twin engine aircraft do have better survivability. What if there is a fire in one engine and is out of control? Jaguar is used in roles where it was exposed more to elements like birds etc that could have caused more accidents. How much were they flown and what was the rate is of value. Pure numbers are meaningless exercise.

That is why accident numbers are worst way to compare. When comparing rate of accident too, the secondary analysis is of contributing factors to decide, if the employment strategy is worth it or not. Or a change is required.


These numbers looked in isolation appear to be completely mismatched. How much of these are for procurement of new weapons, spares, maintaining, salaries, pension etc? You have counted only fighter squadrons. What about other types? India has a much bigger fleet of other types.

I do credit PAF for having a better procurement strategy and timelines compared to what is possible in India.

This thread is purely an attempt to sensationalise an issue that would have been a great topic of discussion, if done with right intent.

10 F-16 lost since 1994? Dude from where you got this date and numbers?

 

[VkdIndian]

10 F-16 lost since 1994?

Corrected.
Good to see friend Windy laughing.

 

[Windjammer]

Of the Ten F-16s lost by PAF over the course of 40 years of operational service, Two were lost due to bird strikes, one hit a wild boar during take off and one was hit by a stray missile during combat with Afghan/Soviet aircrafts during 80s. It's also worth remembering that PAF F-16s were flying combat missions continually against Afghan/Soviet threat during latter half of 80s during which the F-16s bagged around a dozen kills....more recently these jets have been involved in missions for WOT....there may have been no air threats but flying those extra sorties with bomb loads takes it's toll on the engine and airframe.

 

[VkdIndian]

Hey Windy,

The advice given to you on another thread to restrict yourself to posting pictures only was in good faith.
But you don’t seem to accept good faith.

Two were lost due to bird strikes, one hit a wild boar during take off

Birds, wild animals near runways are found only in Pakistan?

As you enter India, they all vanish.

Whenever, PAF looses an aircraft, it is always because of everything else except human error?
Whenever, IAF looses one, it is always because of poor training and human error?

Do you see your analysis? And it’s quality?

Restrict yourself to posting pictures only please.

 

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IAF has had 11 SU30, lost since 1997.

Last July, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of 12 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia to be licence-produced by HAL at an estimated to cost of ₹10,730 crore. These are meant to replace the Sukhois in the inventory that had crashed over the years. On the progress on this, a defence official said the Russians have quoted a very high (price) and negotiations are under way.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hal-completes-sukhoi-order-last-two-jets-to-roll-out-soon/article61734613.ece

You forgot to count the 27 Feb 2019 loss of a Su 30 MKI.

Well, if you want to do comparison, let's do it of F-16 vs Su 30 MKI which were both of our nations top of the line fighter until J10C and Rafales were inducted.

Please tell me how many of our fihgter aircrafts crashed during PEACE TIME i.e excluding Afghan War. We can also remove cases as Engine catching fire despite MKIs having 2 engines etc. Let's give details of each crash and see which air force fared better.

 

[VkdIndian]

Please tell me how many of our fihgter aircrafts crashed during PEACE TIME i.e excluding Afghan War. We can also remove cases as Engine catching fire despite MKIs having 2 engines etc. Let's give details of each crash and see which air force fared better.

I don’t have access to specific data for each crash. I haven’t seen anyone else also providing that detail. Most of the posts in favour of F-16s have quoted random facts to justify F-16s crashes while demonising SU-30 numbers.

@MirageBlue has done the rate comparison that gives a some idea. And it doesn’t look as rosy as painted by few posters.

Since the overall rate of accidents overall is higher for Pakistan, there is no reason to presume that it would be wildly out for F-16s . Ballpark, it is likely to be within the same range. If F-16s had very low accident rates, then that would reflect poorly on other aircraft since they would have contributed to increase the overall rate.
Contributing factors as brought out by you, would definitely play a role. But both Air Forces have their own factors. Good and bad.

let's do it of F-16 vs Su 30 MKI which were both of our nations top of the line fighter

They were capability wise the best for both till some time back. But reliability wise, Russians aren’t close to western equipment. SU-30 engines gave a lot of trouble till few years back. While P&W on F-16 has one of the finest relatability. This would fall in unique factors affecting both Air Forces and need to be considered while analysing the accident rates.

Operations under WoT have been called combat operations. They aren’t because it is an uncontested airspace with terrorists having no capability to threaten PAF air assets. PAF aircraft operate over them as if they are operating over an air to ground firing range in peace time.

My basic point was about flawed attempt of comparing the absolute numbers that this thread is trying to peddle. I am not a subject expert and don’t have the data to dish out the exact rates which should be the basis of any comparison.

One shouldn’t go into chest beating or a coma based on the pure numbers that this thread is trying.

 

[Windjammer]

Hey Windy,

The advice given to you on another thread to restrict yourself to posting pictures only was in good faith.
But you don’t seem to accept good faith.

Your advise would count if i was on cartoon network, after all you are an expert in posting emojis.

Birds, wild animals near runways are found only in Pakistan?

As you enter India, they all vanish.

Whenever, PAF looses an aircraft, it is always because of everything else except human error?
Whenever, IAF looses one, it is always because of poor training and human error?

Do you see your analysis? And it’s quality?

Restrict yourself to posting pictures only please.

As the saying goes....chor ki dari mein tinka.
Firstly give a shot to comprehension...believe me it will not cost you anything.
If you go on F-16. Net site, you will come out of your misery as these details are listed by them.
And instead of waving your arms in the air and making assertions, do point out where i said such incidents don't occur on the Indian side......talking of sides, perhaps you will spread your wisdom beyond posting cartoons and remind us as how many times IAF and IA assets have strayed into Pakistan citing bad weather.....perhaps India is on another planet that such adverse weather conditions only takes place on that side.

 

[VkdIndian]

If you go on F-16. Net site, you will come out of your misery as these details are listed by them.

Windy, you are hopeless.
Does that website have data on total flying hours? Wouldn’t that be required for calculating the rate?

Can one compare accident to accident. One of yours by bird hit and one of ours. Like this?

Kuch to soch liya karo, type karne ke pehle? Bina matlab apna mazaak udwaate ho tum.

 

[Windjammer]

Windy, you are hopeless.
Does that website have data on total flying hours? Wouldn’t that be required for calculating the rate?

Can one compare accident to accident. One of yours by bird hit and one of ours. Like this?

Kuch to soch liya karo, type karne ke pehle? Bina matlab apna mazaak udwaate ho tum.

As i said ....kabi aqal ko haath mar liya karo....
Where is any comparison, this site only deals on operations, mishaps and accidents involving F-16 world wide.
Earlier i posted the link showing PAF F-16s data on achieving accident free 100,000 flying hours.
So what's troubling you.....if IAF has achieved as such with any of their platforms , then why not share it here instead of running in circles,.

 

[Tornado23]

Windy, you are hopeless.
Does that website have data on total flying hours? Wouldn’t that be required for calculating the rate?

Can one compare accident to accident. One of yours by bird hit and one of ours. Like this?

Kuch to soch liya karo, type karne ke pehle? Bina matlab apna mazaak udwaate ho tum.

To settle this debate.

PAF has been in Air to Air combat in 1986 with its F16 and other fighter jets shooting down upto 20-30 aircraft during the afghan war. Only 1 loss occurred and that was blue on blue.

Since then Pakistan was under sanctions and its F16 fleet was falling apart. Literally.

In kargil, the IAF went into action conducting CAS against the NLI. IAF lost 2 jets in combat (MIG 21 and MIG 27, both to MANPAD).

Since then the IAF was not engaged in any sort of combat, whereas the PAF was engaged in constant combat against terrorists, conducting mass CAS strikes.

Please. Tell me how many IAF jets were lost DURING PEACE TIME (for the iaf) compared to the PAF that was engaged in air to ground COMBAT?

 

[Hellfire2006]

I don't argue about the surrender itself. I argue the figure which is pure propaganda.

On top of that, you enjoyed a 50:1 advantage according to your own general. How does one get 93k soldiers from a 50:1 advantage?


Anyways, keep living in propaganda.

I don't think 9 divisions against 3 full divisions and one ad hoc division gives you a 50:1 advantage. That's simply exagerated. At best it was 3:1

To settle this debate.

PAF has been in Air to Air combat in 1986 with its F16 and other fighter jets shooting down upto 20-30 aircraft during the afghan war. Only 1 loss occurred and that was blue on blue.

Since then Pakistan was under sanctions and its F16 fleet was falling apart. Literally.

In kargil, the IAF went into action conducting CAS against the NLI. IAF lost 2 jets in combat (MIG 21 and MIG 27, both to MANPAD).

Since then the IAF was not engaged in any sort of combat, whereas the PAF was engaged in constant combat against terrorists, conducting mass CAS strikes.

Please. Tell me how many IAF jets were lost DURING PEACE TIME (for the iaf) compared to the PAF that was engaged in air to ground COMBAT?

PAF faced an easy enemy in the waziristan wars. Did your enemy have any sort of ground based AD to challenege you the way PA did in kargil ? IAF flying CAS against a well equipped enemy is very different from PAF flying CAS against an enemy wearing salwaar kameez and holding an AK. The latter can't shoot back at you with manpads. And despite the loss of Mig27 to AD fire we continued to give successful CAS, and the mig21 was not shot down by PA, it fell due to engine troubles. After we brought in our Mirage 2000s with Paveway kits PA were facing real trouble on the ground. And yes IAF lost more aircraft than PAF post 1999 but look at the type which has crashed the most. Mig21 and mig27 accounted for 70% of the crashes. The former has been retired now

Though I gotta give it to the PAF , they have fabulously maintained old mirages with little losses. That's an achievement in itself

 

[Hellfire2006]

@Primus khuda Qasam aapke reaction bade cute hai bhaijaan

 

[Tornado23]

I don't think 9 divisions against 3 full divisions and one ad hoc division gives you a 50:1 advantage. That's simply exagerated. At best it was 3:1


PAF faced an easy enemy in the waziristan wars. Did your enemy have any sort of ground based AD to challenege you the way PA did in kargil ? IAF flying CAS against a well equipped enemy is very different from PAF flying CAS against an enemy wearing salwaar kameez and holding an AK. The latter can't shoot back at you with manpads. And despite the loss of Mig27 to AD fire we continued to give successful CAS, and the mig21 was not shot down by PA, it fell due to engine troubles. After we brought in our Mirage 2000s with Paveway kits PA were facing real trouble on the ground. And yes IAF lost more aircraft than PAF post 1999 but look at the type which has crashed the most. Mig21 and mig27 accounted for 70% of the crashes. The former has been retired now

Though I gotta give it to the PAF , they have fabulously maintained old mirages with little losses. That's an achievement in itself

I gave you the proof of there not being 90k soldiers in East Pakistan. And the 50:1 advantage was a hyperbole used by your own general to highlight the numerical strength of both Pakistan and India.

As for facing an easy enemy in waziristan...lol. They had manpads, not many but they had them. So that threat was there. On top of that, combat is combat. Whether its CAS or or aerial, combat is combat. We still have to see the jet getting airborne, flying to its target, engaging the target, and returning to base to land. All of which runs the possibility of a crash. More so when in combat, due to the scale of the operation, and need of the air force to conduct CAS to destroy enemy positions before an assault or to conduct CAS to stop an assault. Unlike peacetime....


Mig21 and mig27...

Bruh Pakistan literally operates Mirage III/V as well as the F7PG (albeit that is newer).

You literally crashed 11 su30mki. And we are not even gonna talk about the jaguar, mig29 or the m2k.

 

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I don't think 9 divisions against 3 full divisions and one ad hoc division gives you a 50:1 advantage. That's simply exagerated. At best it was 3:1

I have observed whenever Indians speak of their own, they always mess up the numbers.