IAF lost 152 pilots, 534 aircraft, in crashes in past 30 years

[Hellfire2006]

I gave you the proof of there not being 90k soldiers in East Pakistan. And the 50:1 advantage was a hyperbole used by your own general to highlight the numerical strength of both Pakistan and India

He could be talking about local numerical superiority in certain towns or battles. But the overall ratio was 3:1 which includes 9 indian army divisions and 3 Pakistan army divisions ( I'm excluding one ad hoc division of the pak army)

As for facing an easy enemy in waziristan...lol. They had manpads, not many but they had them.

Trust me if they had manpads your jets would have had a really hard time. But it's surprising that you're comparing terrorists in KPK to Pak army in Kargil. There's a day and night difference between the two

.

So that threat was there. On top of that, combat is combat. Whether its CAS or or aerial, combat is combat. We still have to see the jet getting airborne, flying to its target, engaging the target, and returning to base to land.

We do the same thing at the pokhran range. The fact that india isn't using it's air force against these jiadhist groups shows how successfully we have handled insurgencies compared to Pak.

All of which runs the possibility of a crash. More so when in combat, due to the scale of the operation, and need of the air force to conduct CAS to destroy enemy positions before an assault or to conduct CAS to stop an assault. Unlike peacetime....

How many sorties did PAF launch in the KPK insurgency ?

Indian Air Force jets do 5,000 sorties in 72 hours on western front - Times of India

After the “surge” in air combat operations on the western front with Pakistan, which saw a staggering 5,000 sorties by fighters alone in just three days, the Indian Air Force has now switched its forces to the northern borders with China from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

www.google.com

Mig21 and mig27...

Bruh Pakistan literally operates Mirage III/V as well as the F7PG (albeit that is newer).

The difference is Pakistani aircrafts were built by french and Chinese which had much better quality than $hitty HAL mig21s and HAL mig27s. HAL has come a long way since then

.

You literally crashed 11 su30mki. And we are not even gonna talk about the jaguar, mig29 or the m2k.

About the SU 30 . India operates a 4X larger fleet of SU 30s than Pakistan operates F16s. Since 1997 a total of 11 have crashed for a total of 12 squadrons and it is the fighter which carries out maximum number of CAPs in the IAF. On the other hand Pakistanis have lost 10 F16s since 1980s for a fleet of 4 squadrons. And it's not even PAFs primary CAP aircraft that means it has to do lesser sorties than a SU30. If we factor the length of service too ( 1981-82 vs 1997-98) then the attrition rate becomes equal bro. And all the problems in SU 30s have been sorted out. It was related to some issue in HAL assembled AL 31F engines, but now HAL has managed to get QC in place and SU 30s haven't crashed since 2019 despite still being the frontline fighter of the IAF

 

[Tornado23]

He could be talking about local numerical superiority in certain towns or battles. But the overall ratio was 3:1 which includes 9 indian army divisions and 3 Pakistan army divisions ( I'm excluding one ad hoc division of the pak army)

I am listing the ORBAT below of Pakistan Army in East Pakistan:

1. 36 Infantry Division with 1 x Bde.
2. 14 Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes and IBG (mostly Rangers)
3. 39 Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes (2 of them were understrength)
4. 16 Infantry Division with 4 x Bdes ( 3 of them understrength)
5. 9th Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes ( 1 understrength Bde)

Now with a full compliment of strength, an infantry division is around 15000 troops, so for 90,000 troops, there have to be 6 x infantry divisions, while Pakistan had 5 x infantry Divisions which were under strength and except 14 Infantry Division, none had full complement of armor, artillery and even infantry. Further more, these brigades had police contingents to fill in numbers but still couldnt manage to bring full Divisions to strength.

It is stated by Indian media that Pakistan lost 5000-9000 troops in 1971 war, which meant that 93000 POWs + maybe 5000 KIA troops would be present in East Pakistan, totaling roughly 100,000 Pakistani troops against 200,000 Indian troops and 100,000 MBs.

1. So firstly, would 100,000 troops just put up their arms in front of 300,00 troops with in 2 weeks or would 40,000 troops do that ? 100,000 troops in front of 300,000 can resist for upto more than 2 months since 3:1 advantage takes time to diminish but 13:1 advantage tilts quickly in favour.

2. With 100,000 troops, an offensive can be planned against Indian forces from East Pakistan, and followed by a string of counter-attacks to decimate advancing Indian Army.

3. Revisit primary school and learn basic maths:
6 x 15000 = 90000
5 x 15000= 75000
But Pakistan Army had just one full strength Infantry Division (14th Infantry Division) so the figure of 75000 is not even possible.

Even if its said that Infantry Division should have 12000 troop strength at least, Pakistan Army still fell short of troops in 4 of its Infantry Divisions. Lets visit primary again:

Pakistan Army Infantry Division: 5 x 12000 = 60000 ( another inflated figure)

There is no way the figure of 90,000 can ever hold true. On top of that, 5000 troops were killed in East Pakistan ? and still 93000 surrendering surely shows 100,000 troop strength which means at least 6-7 fully sanctioned Infantry Divisions and such was never the case.

4. Pakistan Navy and PAF were a very small contingent compared to Army, their strengths were deplorable considered the tasks and assets assigned to them.

View attachment 905293

No wonder I deal with idiots everyday. Why do I even bother to reply.

Now, you can stick that stamp on your forehead. 'atta boy

Trust me if they had manpads your jets would have had a really hard time. But it's surprising that you're comparing terrorists in KPK to Pak army in Kargil. There's a day and night difference between the two

They did have them. There is a picture on PDF which shows either BLA or BLF terrorists holding an Igla MANPAD ( sus)
The threat was there. It was neutralised before it could be used against our Jets. On top of that, PAF jets were conducting CAS via laser guided munitions. It was most likely that the jets were too high for their MANPADS to reach. Same situation in kargil.

Also you are right, kargil and NWZ were two different scenarios. You lost 2 jets and a helicopter to AD fire, where as we lost nothing.

We do the same thing at the pokhran range. The fact that india isn't using it's air force against these jiadhist groups shows how successfully we have handled insurgencies compared to Pak.

I don't see the Kashmir insurrection being anywhere near the Insurgency that Pakistan fought against. Literally 50,000+ terrorists, that were trained, fighting in a terrain which was a massive disadvantage to Pakistan to fight in, and had access to ATGMs (albeit never used as an ATGM, only as IED), and a shit tonne of IED. Have you seen the terrain that the ops were carried out in? Its similar to Afghanistan. The same Afghanistan that the Soviets were brutalised in.

How many sorties did PAF launch in the KPK insurgency ?

Indian Air Force jets do 5,000 sorties in 72 hours on western front - Times of India

After the “surge” in air combat operations on the western front with Pakistan, which saw a staggering 5,000 sorties by fighters alone in just three days, the Indian Air Force has now switched its forces to the northern borders with China from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

www.google.com

Not sure, but for reference the PAF launched 10,000+ sorties during the Afghan war from 86 - till the end of the war, in which the PAF saw actual air to Air combat, downing some 20-30 soviet/afghan aircraft of which 1 f16 was lost due to friendly fire.

The difference is Pakistani aircrafts were built by french and Chinese which had much better quality than $hitty HAL mig21s and HAL mig27s. HAL has come a long way since then




About the SU 30 . India operates a 4X larger fleet of SU 30s than Pakistan operates F16s. Since 1997 a total of 11 have crashed for a total of 12 squadrons and it is the fighter which carries out maximum number of CAPs in the IAF. On the other hand Pakistanis have lost 10 F16s since 1980s for a fleet of 4 squadrons. And it's not even PAFs primary CAP aircraft that means it has to do lesser sorties than a SU30. If we factor the length of service too ( 1981-82 vs 1997-98) then the attrition rate becomes equal bro. And all the problems in SU 30s have been sorted out. It was related to some issue in HAL assembled AL 31F engines, but now HAL has managed to get QC in place and SU 30s haven't crashed since 2019 despite still being the frontline fighter of the IAF

That's a you problem

 

[Hellfire2006]

They did have them. There is a picture on PDF which shows either BLA or BLF terrorists holding an Igla MANPAD ( sus)
The threat was there. It was neutralised before it could be used against our Jets.

So basically the threat didn't exist for PAF, thanks for reiterating and strengthening my argument

On top of that, PAF jets were conducting CAS via laser guided munitions. It was most likely that the jets were too high for their MANPADS to reach. Same situation in kargil.

Only M2Ks carried LGBs in kargil. Mig27 and Mig21s carried out close air support and Rocket attacks on enemy positions, to do this they had to fall to very low altitudes making them vulnerable to well placed AD fire.

Also you are right, kargil and NWZ were two different scenarios. You lost 2 jets and a helicopter to AD fire, where as we lost nothing.

My point exactly, you faced an unorganized, illiterate ,ill equipped, poorly led, destitute, underfunded, underfed and unprofessional enemy in KPK whereas We faced a professional, well trained, experienced, well led and well organised , Entrenched force ,i.e, the Pakistan army in kargil. There's a day and night difference between the capabilities of Insurgents in KPK and Pakistan army in kargil. So of course you won't lose jets, your enemy was simply not capable of dealing any serious damage. By the way india lost 1 jet and 1 helo to AD fire. The second jet was a mig21 lost to Engine failure.

I don't see the Kashmir insurrection being anywhere near the Insurgency that Pakistan fought against.

that were trained, fighting in a terrain which was a massive disadvantage to Pakistan to fight in, and had access to ATGMs (albeit never used as an ATGM, only as IED), and a shit tonne of IED. Have you seen the terrain that the ops were carried out in? Its similar to Afghanistan. The same Afghanistan that the Soviets were brutalised in.

If you were in kashmir in the mid 90s to - early 2000s you would have seen what a dangerous place kashmir was. 7,000 insurgents roamed the interior of the valley and the Pakistani army was constantly creating useless trouble on the LoC. And yeah, add this to the Bodo insurgency in the northeast, Naga insurgency, mizo insurgency, tamil tigers, Meitei insurgency, khalistani insurgency and naxals. Indian army was stretched across the entire country to battle insurgents. Pakistan army had to manage a much smaller area and a less hostile population to what india faced. We were literally fighting from north to south to east. What Pakistanis faced in KPK and Balochistan is a lot less than what india faced in kashmir, nagaland, assam, manipur, mizoram, naxal areas, Punjab, sri lanka, during the late 80s- mid 2000s. We were literally fighting on 6-7 fronts in all corners of the country and sri lanka simultaneously. Pak army actions are restricted To waziristan, Border areas of KPK and interior balochistan. I don't see that being anywhere close to the scale of indian army deployment in the 80s and 90s.


And your 50,000 number is exaggerated. TTP at it's peak had 20,000-25,000 guerillas and BLA had 2,000-3,000 guerillas.

Not sure, but for reference the PAF launched 10,000+ sorties during the Afghan war from 86 - till the end of the war, in which the PAF saw actual air to Air combat, downing some 20-30 soviet/afghan aircraft of which 1 f16 was lost due to friendly fire.

10,000 sorties ain't impressive for a 10 year war. It's very very low even by 70s/80s standards. just for a scale, IAF did 5,000 sorties in 72 hours in an exercise in 2018.

That's a you problem

Clarify ?

 

[SQ8]

So basically the threat didn't exist for PAF, thanks for reiterating and strengthening my argument

Only M2Ks carried LGBs in kargil. Mig27 and Mig21s carried out close air support and Rocket attacks on enemy positions, to do this they had to fall to very low altitudes making them vulnerable to well placed AD fire.

My point exactly, you faced an unorganized, illiterate ,ill equipped, poorly led, destitute, underfunded, underfed and unprofessional enemy in KPK whereas We faced a professional, well trained, experienced, well led and well organised , Entrenched force ,i.e, the Pakistan army in kargil. There's a day and night difference between the capabilities of Insurgents in KPK and Pakistan army in kargil. So of course you won't lose jets, your enemy was simply not capable of dealing any serious damage. By the way india lost 1 jet and 1 helo to AD fire. The second jet was a mig21 lost to Engine failure.

If you were in kashmir in the mid 90s to - early 2000s you would have seen what a dangerous place kashmir was. 7,000 insurgents roamed the interior of the valley and the Pakistani army was constantly creating useless trouble on the LoC. And yeah, add this to the Bodo insurgency in the northeast, Naga insurgency, mizo insurgency, tamil tigers, Meitei insurgency, khalistani insurgency and naxals. Indian army was stretched across the entire country to battle insurgents. Pakistan army had to manage a much smaller area and a less hostile population to what india faced. We were literally fighting from north to south to east. What Pakistanis faced in KPK and Balochistan is a lot less than what india faced in kashmir, nagaland, assam, manipur, mizoram, naxal areas, Punjab, sri lanka, during the late 80s- mid 2000s. We were literally fighting on 6-7 fronts in all corners of the country and sri lanka simultaneously. Pak army actions are restricted To waziristan, Border areas of KPK and interior balochistan. I don't see that being anywhere close to the scale of indian army deployment in the 80s and 90s.


And your 50,000 number is exaggerated. TTP at it's peak had 20,000-25,000 guerillas and BLA had 2,000-3,000 guerillas.

10,000 sorties ain't impressive for a 10 year war. It's very very low even by 70s/80s standards. just for a scale, IAF did 5,000 sorties in 72 hours in an exercise in 2018.

Clarify ?

Those 10000 sorties are pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Simply because most if not all were ADA in nature and sporadic based upon soviet/aaf airspace violations. So over 10 years that is fairly respectable number for what the use case was.

The PAF has demonstrated some 3000 sorties in a short time frame(for its size vis a vis the IAF) during recent high marks and averaged 260 hours per pilot as well. That isn’t the problem since the pilot to aircraft ratio is 2:1(and now falling) where it used to be 3:1 vs the IAFs struggles(due to brain drain with commercial aviation). The need for dual pilots in the most numerous fighter in the IAF doesn’t help either.

As Far as Kargil is concerned - ACdre Tufail’s write up covers a lot to the actual ground situation and IAF’s response.

The Mig-23s and 21s were quickly withdrawn once the two were lost and the emergency equipping of the M2k with the LGb kits was done poste haste - an impressive feat no less - and once that went high altitude the PA’s idea of having a stinger at every peak was useless.

Your assertions to the comparison between Kashmir and TTP conflict are not based on ground realities at all. PA faced an equally “hostile” population in FATA with many insurgents inter married within villagers and they protected them. Moreover, you are being willfully dishonest by comparing 7000 insurgents to 30000+ TTP (please don’t quote wiki since my 6 month old daughter can be given an account to edit anything on it) of which many also blended into the local population.

I myself having survived bullets in Peshawar, 5 bomb blasts and a TTP sympathizer mob will state your comparison is apples to oranges.

 

[Windjammer]

For the gullible out there claiming that IAF flew some 10000 sorties during 1971 war need a slap on the head to get their single brain cell ticking for the IAF which enjoyed a 10:1 numerical strength in the Eastern sector and 3:1 parity in the West can only boast of their sorties in the Eastern sector as the single PAF squadron facing Ten IAF Squadrons was ground within 48 hours of the war due to runway damage, the war in the West was a whole different affair.

"As per official records, the IAF flew 1,978 fighter sorties in the East and about 4,000 in the West, against PAF's 30 and 2,840 respectively."
13 Dec 2021

 

[Tornado23]

So basically the threat didn't exist for PAF, thanks for reiterating and strengthening my argument

Okay keep burying your head in the sand.

Only M2Ks carried LGBs in kargil. Mig27 and Mig21s carried out close air support and Rocket attacks on enemy positions, to do this they had to fall to very low altitudes making them vulnerable to well placed AD fire.

I know.

My point exactly, you faced an unorganized, illiterate ,ill equipped, poorly led, destitute, underfunded, underfed and unprofessional enemy in KPK whereas We faced a professional, well trained, experienced, well led and well organised , Entrenched force ,i.e, the Pakistan army in kargil. There's a day and night difference between the capabilities of Insurgents in KPK and Pakistan army in kargil. So of course you won't lose jets, your enemy was simply not capable of dealing any serious damage. By the way india lost 1 jet and 1 helo to AD fire. The second jet was a mig21 lost to Engine failure.

To be fair you weren't fighting the Pak army. You were fighting the NLI which wasn't a part of the army then. It was after Kargil, the NLI was merged into the army.

Also the ttp being untrained terrorists? What a fool. They had training, leadership and were not poorly funded. They knew what they were doing and how to do it.


Also lol. 1 mig27 shot down via ANZA, 1 Mig21 shot down via ANZA and 1 Mil mi17 shot down via ANZA. You saying the mig21 suffered engine troubles is a lie. India used that same excuse for Abhinandan when he was shot down, before later admitting he was shot down.

If you were in kashmir in the mid 90s to - early 2000s you would have seen what a dangerous place kashmir was. 7,000 insurgents roamed the interior of the valley and the Pakistani army was constantly creating useless trouble on the LoC. And yeah, add this to the Bodo insurgency in the northeast, Naga insurgency, mizo insurgency, tamil tigers, Meitei insurgency, khalistani insurgency and naxals. Indian army was stretched across the entire country to battle insurgents. Pakistan army had to manage a much smaller area and a less hostile population to what india faced. We were literally fighting from north to south to east. What Pakistanis faced in KPK and Balochistan is a lot less than what india faced in kashmir, nagaland, assam, manipur, mizoram, naxal areas, Punjab, sri lanka, during the late 80s- mid 2000s. We were literally fighting on 6-7 fronts in all corners of the country and sri lanka simultaneously. Pak army actions are restricted To waziristan, Border areas of KPK and interior balochistan. I don't see that being anywhere close to the scale of indian army deployment in the 80s and 90s.

Refer to @SQ8 point.

Also, you telling me Pakistan wasn't facing a multi front war during the time? With Afghanistan showing enmity towards Pakistan, the TTP at war with Pakistan, Balochistan terrorists at war with Pakistan, the Iranians showing some enmity towards Pakistan at the time, and with India being its usual self, that being a low IQ monkey with a machine gun, you seriously telling me India was the only facing a multi front war? Please... cope in the corner. Not here.

And your 50,000 number is exaggerated. TTP at it's peak had 20,000-25,000 guerillas and BLA had 2,000-3,000 guerrillas

Bruh. Watson institute put out report, stating 31,000+ militants killed, and another 11,415 wounded/captured. That was recorded from 2005 - 2016. You good?

10,000 sorties ain't impressive for a 10 year war. It's very very low even by 70s/80s standards. just for a scale, IAF did 5,000 sorties in 72 hours in an exercise in 2018.

Congratulations, you haven't taken into account the size of Air force at that time nor taken into account the amount of fighter jets Pakistan had at its disposal to send to the Afghan border.

Clarify?

I don't think I need to

 

[-=virus=-]

I myself having survived bullets in Peshawar, 5 bomb blasts and a TTP sympathizer mob...

wait, wut ??

I thought you're a techie based in TX or something ?

fuq wr you doing dodging bullets and bombs from the Pakistani Taliban ?

 

[SQ8]

wait, wut ??

I thought you're a techie based in TX or something ?

fuq wr you doing dodging bullets and bombs from the Pakistani Taliban ?

2006-2011 - I was still in Pk.
It was surprisingly all calm until 2007 and then it got wild. I was at
Peshawar Cantt Blast (lady’s head came flying out with her burqa attached like a cape and landed a few houses down from mine)
Peshawar ISI office blast
rocket attack that landed outside our yard - (a relative of ours nonchalantly commented that it was good it was unguided and I was like.. NO!? It was better if it was because they sure weren’t aiming for us)
Islamabad University blast
Rushed to Marriot when it blew

Ended up at the Danish embassy to help
H-8 blast

Frankly lost count of bullets and bombs - most Pakistanis have PTSD from all of this

 

[-=virus=-]

2006-2011 - I was still in Pk.
It was surprisingly all calm until 2007 and then it got wild. I was at
Peshawar Cantt Blast (lady’s head came flying out with her burqa attached like a cape and landed a few houses down from mine)
Peshawar ISI office blast
rocket attack that landed outside our yard - (a relative of ours nonchalantly commented that it was good it was unguided and I was like.. NO!? It was better if it was because they sure weren’t aiming for us)
Islamabad University blast
Rushed to Marriot when it blew

Ended up at the Danish embassy to help
H-8 blast

Frankly lost count of bullets and bombs - most Pakistanis have PTSD from all of this

damn.. that's rough, sorry to hear.

 

[Hellfire2006]

Those 10000 sorties are pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Simply because most if not all were ADA in nature and sporadic based upon soviet/aaf airspace violations. So over 10 years that is fairly respectable number for what the use case was.

I was referring to the intensity of PAF involvement in the soviet afghan conflict. 10,000 sorties in 10 years does not point out to a very intense involvement

The PAF has demonstrated some 3000 sorties in a short time frame(for its size vis a vis the IAF) during recent high marks and averaged 260 hours per pilot as well.

Is there any source for this. I've provided my source for IAF carrying out 5,000 sorties in just 72 hrs

That isn’t the problem since the pilot to aircraft ratio is 2:1(and now falling) where it used to be 3:1 vs the IAFs struggles(due to brain drain with commercial aviation). The need for dual pilots in the most numerous fighter in the IAF doesn’t help either.

Yeah I've known PAF has a higher aircraft to pilot ratio. I don't know why the people at IAF HQ are so ignorant about this issue. Just when people were expecting that Air Force will increase vacancies for Cadets in NDA they reduced it. And then they talk about having a low pilot to aircraft ratio. It's because of IAF's own lack of planning or vision

As Far as Kargil is concerned - ACdre Tufail’s write up covers a lot to the actual ground situation and IAF’s response.

The Mig-23s and 21s were quickly withdrawn once the two were lost and the emergency equipping of the M2k with the LGb kits was done poste haste - an impressive feat no less - and once that went high altitude the PA’s idea of having a stinger at every peak was useless.

Sir , you're not paying attention to the fact that IAF had just dropped 9 laser Guided Bombs in Kargil ( 8 from mirages and one from Jaguar) whereas IAF fighters carried out 1,200 sorties in kargil in support of the army. This means that the deployment of Guided bombs was extremely limited in kargil, the overwhelming majority of IAF missions were carried out using dumb bumbs, rockets and gun runs. The deployment of LGBs in kargil is exgaerated by Pakistani sources.

Your assertions to the comparison between Kashmir and TTP conflict are not based on ground realities at all. PA faced an equally “hostile” population in FATA with many insurgents inter married within villagers and they protected them. Moreover, you are being willfully dishonest by comparing 7000 insurgents to 30000+ TTP (please don’t quote wiki since my 6 month old daughter can be given an account to edit anything on it) of which many also blended into the local population.

I myself having survived bullets in Peshawar, 5 bomb blasts and a TTP sympathizer mob will state your comparison is apples to oranges.

Sir you have cherry picked facts from my post. I'm not comparing TTP to Kashmiri militants. I've just given out the deployment of Pakistan army during the peak of it's CI ops and the indian army from 1989-2006 where it fought 6-7 insurgencies on multiple fronts across all the corners of the country. Add up the Kashmiris , Naxals, Nagas, mizos, Bodos, manipuris, Khalistanis, and LTTE. Pakistan army had to just fight in FATA, border areas of KPK and interior balochistan. Indian army had to fight in Jungles of Assam, nagaland, Mizoram, Manipur , Sri Lanka , plains of Punjab and mountains of Kashmir. I don't think Pakistan army was ever stretched out to this extent ever.
And sir If you ask me whether kashmiris, nagas, mizos, tamils were more hostile to indian presence than FATA tribals were to Pakistani presence. Then I'll definitely choose the former.

 

[VkdIndian]

account the amount of fighter jets Pakistan had at its disposal to send to the Afghan border.

When it’s convenient, the absolute numbers become useless. PAF becomes smaller, that can’t fly as much as IAF.

When one talks of accidents, absolute numbers gain sudden prominence. And larger IAF crashes become prominent.

You wouldn’t accept it but it means - PAF is smaller hence has lesser quantum of flying and lesser number of accidents too.

To be fair you weren't fighting the Pak army. You were fighting the NLI which wasn't a part of the army then. It was after Kargil, the NLI was merged into the army.

Difference between NLI and Army is equipment and tasks assigned to them. You equip a force like NLI with army equipment and task them as such, they are army for all practical purposes.

At that time Pakistan didn’t even accept NLI, and sang the old song of Mujahideen incursions into India. Was it fair?

So, use of the word “fair” sounds a little hypocritical.

 

[VkdIndian]

The PAF has demonstrated some 3000 sorties in a short time frame(for its size vis a vis the IAF) during recent high marks and averaged 260 hours per pilot as well.

3000 hrs for the exercise and 260 hrs per pilot during that period?
Or, is the per pilot average in that year? Which sound a little more feasible.

 

[Hellfire2006]

Okay keep burying your head in the sand.

When you've got no argument to present that's what you do

I know.



To be fair you weren't fighting the Pak army. You were fighting the NLI which wasn't a part of the army then. It was after Kargil, the NLI was merged into the army.

NLI was a mountain warfare force made up of local kashmiris , gilgits and pashtuns who were adapted to High altitude warfare. NLI was officered by Pakistan army officers and was under the operational command of FCNA which was a part of Pakistan army. It was better than any Pakistani army regiment in high altitude warfare and came to kargil with AD from pakistan army corps of air defence. Saying that FCNA wasn't operationally a part of the Pakistan army is like saying that RR and Assam rifles is not a part of indian army since both the forces are a part of MHA but come under direct operational control of the indian army.
And regular Pakistani army units were also deployed in kargil. Captain karnal Sher Khan was from sind regiment.

Also the ttp being untrained terrorists? What a fool. They had training, leadership and were not poorly funded. They knew what they were doing and how to do it.

Lol , a militant organisation which relies on hit and run tactics anf suicide bombing to achieve it's objectives is well trained ? You're describing TTP as if it was some professional army. TTP was, is and will be a rag tag militia made up of misguided people with no aim in life and poor leadership. TTP leaders were radical mullas with no military training or education, no match for Pakistan army officers who spent 2 years in military training at PMA

Also lol. 1 mig27 shot down via ANZA, 1 Mig21 shot down via ANZA and 1 Mil mi17 shot down via ANZA. You saying the mig21 suffered engine troubles is a lie.

Lol, where's your proof ? Nachiketa's Mig27 engine developed trouble due to ingestion of exhaust from one it's weapons. Then Mig21 of Sqn leader ahuja went to search for him, while searching he was shot down. Kindly note that I've mistakenly quoted mig21 instead of Mig27 in my previous post.

The claim of shooting down the mig27 is as true as Pakistan claiming to shoot down a su 30

India used that same excuse for Abhinandan when he was shot down, before later admitting he was shot down.

Refer to @SQ8 point.

Also, you telling me Pakistan wasn't facing a multi front war during the time? With Afghanistan showing enmity towards Pakistan, the TTP at war with Pakistan, Balochistan terrorists at war with Pakistan, the Iranians showing some enmity towards Pakistan at the time, and with India being its usual self, that being a low IQ monkey with a machine gun, you seriously telling me India was the only facing a multi front war? Please... cope in the corner. Not here.

Did iranians ever invade or attack pakistan, did they ever heat up the border with Pakistan like LoC ? If no then your point is senseless. All the points you've mentioned have bren covered by me in my previous post about pak fighting In FATA, KPK border and interior balochistan. That's still not close to india fighting in Northeast, Punjab, Kashmir, naxal corridor and sri lanka all at once. Pakistan generally kept 7-8 divisions for CI ops during the peak . India kept nearly half of it's army for CI ops during the peak of insurgency

Bruh. Watson institute put out report, stating 31,000+ militants killed, and another 11,415 wounded/captured. That was recorded from 2005 - 2016. You good?

That reflects the total number killed, not the no. Of insurgents at peak strength. I'll agree with SQ8's figure of 30,000 insurgents at the peak.

Congratulations, you haven't taken into account the size of Air force at that time nor taken into account the amount of fighter jets Pakistan had at its disposal to send to the Afghan border.

I don't think I need to

9 squadrons took part according to your air force's website. That's close to Half of your entire fighter strength of 20 squadrons

3000 hrs for the exercise and 260 hrs per pilot during that period?
Or, is the per pilot average in that year? Which sound a little more feasible.

It's actually possible to pull off so many sorties during carefully planned exercises. Indian air force did 5,000 sorties in 72 hours during an exercise in 2018

When it’s convenient the absolute numbers become useless. PAF becomes smaller.

When one talks of accidents, absolute numbers gain prominence again. And larger IAF crashes become prominent.

You wouldn’t accept it but it means - PAF is smaller hence has lesser quantum of flying and lesser number of accidents too.


Difference between NLI and Army is equipment and tasks assigned to them. You equip a force like NLI with army equipment and task them as such, they are army for all practical purposes.

At that time Pakistan didn’t even accept NLI, and sang the old song of Mujahideen incursions into India. Was it fair?

So, use of the word “fair” sounds a little hypocritical.

NLI was under operational control of the pak army during kargil war and was officered by pak army officers. It's equipment profile was specialised to mountain warfare which made it an effective mountain warfare force, NLI battalions were better in mountain warfare than other pak army units. They are not only practically army, they are factually army too.if we go by the logic in the argument given by @Primus then we can say that RR is not a part of indian army

 

[Thepathtoheaven]

That's a great news.I pray to Allah that they keep losing their resources and one day get thrashed by the combined forces of Pakistan and China.That day would be the liberation day for us,the Indian muslims.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

2006-2011 - I was still in Pk.
It was surprisingly all calm until 2007 and then it got wild. I was at
Peshawar Cantt Blast (lady’s head came flying out with her burqa attached like a cape and landed a few houses down from mine)
Peshawar ISI office blast
rocket attack that landed outside our yard - (a relative of ours nonchalantly commented that it was good it was unguided and I was like.. NO!? It was better if it was because they sure weren’t aiming for us)
Islamabad University blast
Rushed to Marriot when it blew

Ended up at the Danish embassy to help
H-8 blast

Frankly lost count of bullets and bombs - most Pakistanis have PTSD from all of this

I was lucky twice in nowshehra..
ASC center blast, hardly a few hundred meters from my house, windows shattered etc.

2nd time, near Arty school gate, the 2 sentries caught the would be bomber and thankfully didnt let him go kaboom. I used to go to the arty schools net cafe & mess after gym.. which was opposite the gt road.