I, Maha Sapta Sindhu

[KS]

Pure bollocks - no wonder you are part of the rss - I repeat there was no forced conversion, you speak like you were there or something.

Ok continue to insult your intelligence by thinking so. But dont try that on me
Being a part of RSS is not necessary for it. Hundred percent attendence in your high school history class is enough

We have oral history in my clan, of the Sufi - who's tomb we still respect who converted us, This took place over many years, and the invaders at that time - were more interested in building empires than converting people.

Again did I ever say Islam was 100 % spread through sword. There were sufis - Yes. There was also Tughlaqs.

Listen he was from Jhelum - so he belongs to his descendants living in that land, and how do you know what his religion was, you speak like you knew the guy personally.

And what religion was there when Alexander came.? Surely not Islam.

Regarding Arabia - yes Islam came from Arabia - but ideas and ways of doing things have always been passed on to different kinds of people.

By that logic - why be democratic that was also invented in the west, you follow it - because it makes sense.

And Islam has been present in india Pakistan for over a thousand years, it has been here for dozens of generations, and because of that it is indigenous

Just because you settle in China for 50 years or 150 years doesnt make you a native Chinese. You are still an outsider.

Indian who follow Islam are indigenous, But Islam by itself is alien to this land and will remain so.

 

[Rafi]

Ok continue to insult your intelligence by thinking so. But dont try that on me
Being a part of RSS is not necessary for it. Hundred percent attendence in your high school history class is enough

Yes RSS are boy scouts - who never murder innocents


Again did I ever say Islam was 100 % spread through sword. There were sufis - Yes. There was also Tughlaqs.

It was spread 100% through peaceful conversions

And what religion was there when Alexander came.? Surely not Islam.

It was not Hinduism - the land mass of Pakistan was largely Buddhist before Islam, in fact Budd - became the name of all idols


Just because you settle in China for 50 years or 150 years doesnt make you a native Chinese. You are still an outsider.

Indian who follow Islam are indigenous, But Islam by itself is alien to this land and will remain so.

Who are you to judge whether Islam is alien or not, say that to an indian Muslim and see how far it gets you. Islam is indigenous because its followers are.

 

[UnitedPak]

And what religion was there when Alexander came.? Surely not Islam.

Different regions of India to this day have different models of Hinduism. How do you know if someone from Indus Valley 2300 years ago shared cultural and religious traits with you?
Its all assumption on your part and you seem to think the lack of solid sources gives you the right to invent your own account of what Porus would have been today. We can call him "hindu" but the truth is that you have no idea about the actual cultural or religious practices of Indus valley 2300 years ago. It just goes to show that you define Hindu history as everything before Islam without the need to know any real facts.

Just because you settle in China for 50 years or 150 years doesnt make you a native Chinese. You are still an outsider.

Indian who follow Islam are indigenous, But Islam by itself is alien to this land and will remain so.

I dont know about India but after 1000 years of Islam in the Indus valley, the two are inseparable. Islam is part of the Indus identity. Do you consider Sikhism alien too since it was influenced by non native religions?

 

[DesiGuy]

@ karthic


dude, no point in talking to them. just let them believe what they want. history is something else and we all know that.

creating few threads on this forum is not gonna change the history.

 

[jayron]

^^^ They desperately need something to be proud of.. let them do it. But claiming islam as indigenous is an overkill

 

[Rafi]

Islam is indigenous to the Indus Valley, Hinduism is not.

 

[FreekiN]

Islam is indigenous to the Indus Valley, Hinduism is not.

wait, what? So before Islam, what religion was there?

Zoroastrianism, AND?

 

[Nalwa]

Gupta and pala have never extended into pakistan, pakistani historians have rejected any gangan valley originated empire ruling pakistan, Kushans and indus valley were only partly extended in Bharat, their capitals were in mainland pakistan. Indus valley also extended in turkmenistan, iran, afghanistan but the bulk of its area was in pakistan.
Kushan empire also extended in tajiistan, afghanistan, iran, uzbekistan but the bulk of its area was in pakistan.
When the mughals came pakistan was part of central asia not bharat

Capital doesn't matter as much as you think they do. If they matter so much, do you claim the sole proprietary to the Sikh empire as well, since it was majorly in your part of Punjab and was centered in Lahore?

My point there was that a major part of these kingdoms had Pakistan and northern Indian regions. Hence they had a common history.

 

[Joe Shearer]

wait, what? So before Islam, what religion was there?

Zoroastrianism, AND?

A good question, one that is not always audible through the hubbub.

There is little doubt, judging by literary mentions of the tribes list, that the Indus Valley followed variants of Vedic polytheism until the advent of Buddhism. Thereafter, it was probably a mixture of Vedic polytheism and Buddhism that prevailed. There it remained for a considerable period of time, around 1,200 years, until the Chach Nama, which clearly mentions a mixed population of Hindus, with Brahmins and Kshatriyas, and Buddhists. There is no reason to confuse ourselves imaginary wholly fictional scenarios about the withering away, or even the non-existence of Hinduism in these parts; Occam's Razor should suffice as a logical tool.

On a separate issue altogether.

One question which keeps cropping up, again and again, is why there are no famous Hindu temples in the area. As a matter of fact, there are a few, many apparently having been destroyed in the upheavals around the time of independence, but apparently what is required is a plethora, a resemblance to other parts of India. The answer is again fairly simple. First, some points of reference.

1. Vedic 'Hinduism' was not iconic.
2. The IVC people MAY have worshipped icons; there is a seal of a seated horned god rather like Pasupati.
3. Iconography was the gift of the Greeks to India; the first representations of the Buddha were symbolic, of the impression of his feet, and it was the Gandhara idols in the Greek style which paved the way for the future.
4. Strictly Hindu icons and idols are after this point of time, around the turn of the millennium (now that we are in 2010, the first millennium).

Based on this, we find by placing this on a time-line that the bulk of temple and holy-place building in the late ancient period and early mediaeval period was Buddhist; that in India, the great period of Hindu temple building started in mediaeval or late-mediaeval times, after the advent of the Sankaracharya gave a fillip to resurgent Hinduism; this coincided precisely with the overwhelming of the Indus Valley, in stages, from the south up to Multan initially, the north-west down to Multan subsequently; the conquerors in all three waves were committed to destruction of temples and idols; the period of the greatest building of temples in India was a period of destruction of temples in much of current-day Pakistan; even afterwards, in subsequent years, these demolitions continued.

That is one reason why the cultural landscape in the Indus Valley is so mono-cultural.

 

[KS]

Yes RSS are boy scouts - who never murder innocents

Totally irrelevant balderdash which has nothing to do with the topic in hand.

It was spread 100% through peaceful conversions

Yes there are polar bears in Sahara.

It was not Hinduism - the land mass of Pakistan was largely Buddhist before Islam, in fact Budd - became the name of all idols

Wrong again, There was 'Vedic' Hinduism, an ancient precursor of the modern day Hinduism.

Various sources say Porus was either a Jat or a Mohyal Brahmin. (Can anyone confirm this please ?)

Who are you to judge whether Islam is alien or not, say that to an indian Muslim and see how far it gets you. Islam is indigenous because its followers are.

Indian Muslims themselves are indigenous, but the religion of Islam is alien to this land and no matter how many milleniums passby, it will be still a Abrahamic religion born in Arabia.

 

[KS]

Different regions of India to this day have different models of Hinduism. How do you know if someone from Indus Valley 2300 years ago shared cultural and religious traits with you?
Its all assumption on your part and you seem to think the lack of solid sources gives you the right to invent your own account of what Porus would have been today. We can call him "hindu" but the truth is that you have no idea about the actual cultural or religious practices of Indus valley 2300 years ago. It just goes to show that you define Hindu history as everything before Islam without the need to know any real facts.

Exactly --- different models of Hinduism. But Hinduism still.

I know that the Hinduism of today is not the same as that of those days. But it was still a form of Hinduism and not any other religion. They still worshipped Sun (Surya), Rain (Indra) , a cow like deity (Nandi or Lord Pasupati) as gods which continues even till date in Hinduism.

I dont know about India but after 1000 years of Islam in the Indus valley, the two are inseparable. Islam is part of the Indus identity. Do you consider Sikhism alien too since it was influenced by non native religions?

Again you are just reiterating what I said. Today they may be a part of the history, but still the original Islamic culture was alien to this land. And it will remain so.

ps.:I dont consider Sikhism alien because it was born in the Indian Sub-continent and not anywhere else.

 

[SQ8]

Exactly --- different models of Hinduism. But Hinduism still.

I know that the Hinduism of today is not the same as that of those days. But it was still a form of Hinduism and not any other religion. They still worshipped Sun (Surya), Rain (Indra) , a cow like deity (Nandi or Lord Pasupati) as gods which continues even till date in Hinduism.




Again you are just reiterating what I said. Today they may be a part of the history, but still the original Islamic culture was alien to this land. And it will remain so.

ps.:I dont consider Sikhism alien because it was born in the Indian Sub-continent and not anywhere else.

And yet Guru Nanak's inspiration was from both religions??.. is it not?
It is the introduction of Islam that changed the course of history..and Sikhism was part of this history..
Would Sikhism still exist in its current form had Islam not come in.

Also..if you are saying Indians arent proud of Muslim history in the sub continent.. then it seems that every Indian Muslim carries a burden of apology for his ancestors actions..
Since only Muslim rulers in your words were plunderers and conquerors..therefore every Indian Muslim should be apologetic about his existence??
Should he be more "Indian" than the rest??
Christianity is alien too.. so is mother Teresa not to be taken at the same level as other figures?
All those with Alien backgrounds need to sing "Vande Mataram" with more fervor than the rest to prove their allegiance to Bharat?

 

[Bang Galore]

Today they may be a part of the history, but still the original Islamic culture was alien to this land. And it will remain so.

Kathic, what's the point of the above? Why would you want to alienate so many Indians? Unnecessary! Go back long enough & everything is alien. History cannot begin where you & I wish it to begin, just so that it helps a particular argument that one chooses to make. Christians have been in India for nearly 2000 years, Jews for 2600 years, Parsees for over a 1000 years. Are they all alien? That's a provocative, slippery slope argument you are making. There is no upside to such opinions.

 

[KS]

Kathic, what's the point of the above? Why would you want to alienate so many Indians? Unnecessary! Go back long enough & everything is alien. History cannot begin where you & I wish it to begin, just so that it helps a particular argument that one chooses to make. Christians have been in India for nearly 2000 years, Jews for 2600 years, Parsees for over a 1000 years. Are they all alien? That's a provocative, slippery slope argument you are making. There is no upside to such opinions.

Arey yaar I am just calling a spade a spade.

Islam as a culture is alien to the sub-continent while the people who follow that are NOT.

Apart from the diplomatic niceties, anything wrong in that.?

 

[KS]

And yet Guru Nanak's inspiration was from both religions??.. is it not?
It is the introduction of Islam that changed the course of history..and Sikhism was part of this history..
Would Sikhism still exist in its current form had Islam not come in.

Hypothetical question. There is still a fat chance of Guru Nanak Ji being born and being influenced to form Sikhism even if Islam had not come.

And I am sure you know about one of the main reasons for the establishment of Khalsa.

Also..if you are saying Indians arent proud of Muslim history in the sub continent.. then it seems that every Indian Muslim carries a burden of apology for his ancestors actions..
Since only Muslim rulers in your words were plunderers and conquerors..therefore every Indian Muslim should be apologetic about his existence??
Should he be more "Indian" than the rest??
Christianity is alien too.. so is mother Teresa not to be taken at the same level as other figures?
All those with Alien backgrounds need to sing "Vande Mataram" with more fervor than the rest to prove their allegiance to Bharat?

Why are you getting worked up boss ?? Did I say that Indian Muslims are not equal to Indian hindus/Sikhs/Jains/Buddhists. I challenge you to quote one post of mine where I said so. Indeed in my previous post I had boldly put, Indian Muslims are indigenous as much as any other,but the culture(Islamic) they follow is alien.

A crude example of that would be Red-Indians wearing three piece suits and ties. They were native to America, but the culture they follow will be in that case European(Alien).

Coming to the point you raised, NO they dont carry the burden of apology..

Again many of the Muslims were peacefully converted to Islam thorough the influence of Sufis and why should they need to feel apologetic. ??

Regarding Mother Teresa, it is not the religion that placed her on a pedestal, it was the social services rendered by her.

All I am saying is, Islam as a culture was not native to the sub-continent and though I accept the Islamic history as very much a part of Indian History , there is very little for me to be exactly proud of it.