I, Maha Sapta Sindhu

[FreekiN]

Just the land belongs to you. Not the cultural traits. And like it or not, only the deluded in your country like to believe these theories. Everybody else in the world doesn't believe it. So feel free to delude yourself.

Elaborate on "who" in the rest of the world isn't believing 'it'.

 

[Ganga]

But.. then again..for all possible purposes..Why has India not honored a Muslim ruler in its history..(leave the misguided Mughals aside)..
The rulers of Mysore deserve their attention..
All of those do who stood up to the British..
My bone of contention with all of those who imply India embraces all History..is why is the MahaBharta the only source for inspiration?
True..it is a historical piece solely attributed to the hINDUS(the people..).. Yet.. it a part of history..and the history of the Sub-continent is far richer than that..
The Sikh religion originated at a latter stage in India's history..yet it gets more attention than the Muslims..
My point here is not religious ..but that India(congress/BJP) too is not completely free of blame in alienating an identity for Muslims within its society...
The Muslim that Drinks, Fornicates,Parties or is a criminal is widely shown..
Not one that embraces both his religion..and culture.
There is the INS Khurkri and Kirpan..
but nothing that a Muslim can relate to..
Something that he can say was his contribution to India.
On the contrary..
Most Pakistani systems are named on Islamic history.. possibly a sense of forced identity.. yet at least it gives one to a section..
But is Jahangir only a Pakistani legacy??
Should there not be an INS jahangir?..
By ignoring the Muslim History of India.. Indian leadership is partly to blame for enforcing the two nation identity here.

There are things that Indian Muslims can relate to.For intance Air India named several of her 747s after Mughal kings.There were also jets named after cities build by Muslim kings like Fatehpur Sikri etc..Even in the opening ceremony of the CWG there was a small part dedicated to Islam.No one expected that.You asked why there is no INS Jahangir.Let me ask you why is there no PNS Ashoka .After all his empire included present day Pakistan and he was also the governer of Taxila for some time.

 

[Bang Galore]

But.. then again..for all possible purposes..Why has India not honored a Muslim ruler in its history..(leave the misguided Mughals aside)..
The rulers of Mysore deserve their attention..
All of those do who stood up to the British..
My bone of contention with all of those who imply India embraces all History..is why is the MahaBharta the only source for inspiration?
True..it is a historical piece solely attributed to the hINDUS(the people..).. Yet.. it a part of history..and the history of the Sub-continent is far richer than that..
The Sikh religion originated at a latter stage in India's history..yet it gets more attention than the Muslims..
My point here is not religious ..but that India(congress/BJP) too is not completely free of blame in alienating an identity for Muslims within its society...
The Muslim that Drinks, Fornicates,Parties or is a criminal is widely shown..
Not one that embraces both his religion..and culture.
There is the INS Khurkri and Kirpan..
but nothing that a Muslim can relate to..
Something that he can say was his contribution to India.
On the contrary..
Most Pakistani systems are named on Islamic history.. possibly a sense of forced identity.. yet at least it gives one to a section..
But is Jahangir only a Pakistani legacy??
Should there not be an INS jahangir?..
By ignoring the Muslim History of India.. Indian leadership is partly to blame for enforcing the two nation identity here.

Don't quite understand what you mean. Akbar is only one of two kings whose name is appended with the phrase "The Great", the other being Asoka neither of them Hindus. Tipu sultan is widely regarded as a national hero excepting in some areas of South Canara & Kerala. Sher Shah Suri is regarded as one of the greatest administrators even though he ruled for a comparatively short period. Indians admire Muslim contribution to culture & music.

Btw, why an INS Jahangir? The guy spent a lot of his time under the influence of alcohol & opium & militarily suffered the ignominy of being held hostage by his own general. Hardly an apt name for a warship.

 

[gubbi]

But.. then again..for all possible purposes..Why has India not honored a Muslim ruler in its history..(leave the misguided Mughals aside)..
The rulers of Mysore deserve their attention..
All of those do who stood up to the British..

You'd be surprised how we honor our heros. Hyder Ali and his son Tipu are celebrated as Tigers of Mysore because they were among the first rulers to stand up against the East India Company's expansionist policies! Tipu was the first to use Rockets in warfare, a celebrated fact in the Indian military!
Whoever said Mughals are misguided? Among all te rulers in India's history, only two emperors earned the title "the Great" - Ashoka the Great and then Akbar the Great! Akbar was a Mughal, wasnt he? THe rule of Mughals is as celebrated as the rule of Rajputs or Marathas or the Cholas or any other Sultanates in east and central India.

My bone of contention with all of those who imply India embraces all History..is why is the MahaBharta the only source for inspiration?
True..it is a historical piece solely attributed to the hINDUS(the people..).. Yet.. it a part of history..and the history of the Sub-continent is far richer than that..

The Mahabharata is an epic poem, one of the longest poems ever written. Its actually a simple story of how good prevails over evil. To drive home the point, its filled with many interesting subplots, anecdotes, stories etc! Show me a story which can beat the complexity, the interesting nature of Mahabharata? I suggest you should watch the entire series to understand why it captures the imagination of a billion people! It has nothing to do with religion.
Heck, Hindusim wasnt even known as a religion when Mahabharata was written! The Bhagvad Gita, is basically a sermon given on the battlefield by one of the protagonists in Mahabharata to another - a warrior who questioned the morals. This at a time when 'religions' as we know them didnt exist! I am sure everyone of the present day religions will have something which has already been mentioned in the Bhagvad Gita.

Not one that embraces both his religion..and culture.
There is the INS Khurkri and Kirpan..
but nothing that a Muslim can relate to..
Something that he can say was his contribution to India.
On the contrary..
Most Pakistani systems are named on Islamic history.. possibly a sense of forced identity.. yet at least it gives one to a section..
But is Jahangir only a Pakistani legacy??
Should there not be an INS jahangir?..
By ignoring the Muslim History of India.. Indian leadership is partly to blame for enforcing the two nation identity here.

You couldnt be more mistaken. India is not ignoring Muslim history, but you are ignoring your rich past. Justifying Pakistan's creation can be debated and the whole ideology can be easily torn apart, but its not a scope of this thread, and neither am I interested. That brings in the question of a mature identity, which you so clearly quoted.

Indian military names of its assets, contrary to popular misbelief, are mostly based on elements of the Universe, keeping in tradition with the rich cultural history of the land. Prithvi (earth), Akash (sk), Sagarika (ocean) etc. What you believe to be "Hindu" or "Sikh" names are attributed to cultures/traditions which originated in India. FYI, Islam didn't originate in India. So tell me the logic of naming systems or assets with Arabic sounding names?

 

[takeiteasy]

I live in Australia, almost every reseach on history in south/central asian is being done on Pakistan not on bharat, Pakistan has a 9000 year old recorded history. West historians dont look at pakistan as part of sub continent, the americans have put together pakistan in greator middle east , pakistani histroians try to put pakistan in central asia so there is no sub-continent/ south asian thing

India has it's Own Common Culture shared by most of the states. be it north India,South India,West India,East India. It does not need IVC Claim to Vouch for Indian Civilization. Our Colourful Culture itself Stands to Vouch For Us.
For part, I agree that Pakistan Nation is Different, has some similarities with North West India but much more in common with Middle East including Religion.

Indian Culture is Not alone what Doordarshan or Star Plus Shows. It is a collection of Similar Cultures Which in Core Respects Humans. For those Who can see only things through Religion's Lens, India is indeed Hindu Culture or Similar Cultures. Indian Christians or Muslims They in General Are Not Italians or Saudi Arabians; They Share India's Culture, Culinary,Dressing everything.

 

[KS]

But.. then again..for all possible purposes..Why has India not honored a Muslim ruler in its history..

Because there were very few fit for honouring.

Seriously you cant expect Indians to honour Ghazni or Tughlaq or Balban for what they have done.

The rulers of Mysore deserve their attention..
All of those do who stood up to the British..

You seem to be mentioning Tipu and he is still considered as a hero by
the people of South

My bone of contention with all of those who imply India embraces all History..is why is the MahaBharta the only source for inspiration?
True..it is a historical piece solely attributed to the hINDUS(the people..).. Yet.. it a part of history..and the history of the Sub-continent is far richer than that..

What do you mean by ONLY source of inspiration ?? Though I will concede it is a major source of inspiration.

Again what it means by attributed to "INDUS" people. ? The main site of the Mahabharata war is set in Kurukshetra,Haryana. Lord Krishna ruled over Dwarka in Gujarat and was born in Madura,Uttar Pradesh.

The Army of the Pandavas also consisted of the Pandya kings from the South.

The Sikh religion originated at a latter stage in India's history..yet it gets more attention than the Muslims..

The truth Indians accept Muslim culture as a part of history, but not many are proud of it., which is not the case of Sikhism (one of the foundational causes of Sikhism is against the Mughal tyranny against Hindus)

My point here is not religious ..but that India(congress/BJP) too is not completely free of blame in alienating an identity for Muslims within its society...
The Muslim that Drinks, Fornicates,Parties or is a criminal is widely shown..
Not one that embraces both his religion..and culture.

I personally dont think a Muslim who parties or boozes is a bad Muslim.That is his prerogative and I respect that.

There is the INS Khurkri and Kirpan..
but nothing that a Muslim can relate to..
Something that he can say was his contribution to India.
On the contrary..
Most Pakistani systems are named on Islamic history.. possibly a sense of forced identity.. yet at least it gives one to a section..
But is Jahangir only a Pakistani legacy??
Should there not be an INS jahangir?..
By ignoring the Muslim History of India.. Indian leadership is partly to blame for enforcing the two nation identity here.

IIRC there was once a frigate named INS Akbar. But then even there was no ship named INS Ashoka or INS Chandragupta Maurya.

Most of the ships of the Indian Navy are named after rivers,weapons,mountains etc.

No one is ignoring the Muslim history of India.But as i said we are not exactly proud of it. Just accept it.

And going a step further I dont think any Pakistani Navy vessel was named PNS Dahir or PNS Porus or PNS Kanishka even though these great kings ruled mostly parts of today's Pakistan than India.

It all boils down to the pride in the culture you identify yourself with. Iran was completely overrun by the Arabs and their religion imposed on it. But do you find any Arab name for their weapon ?? I dont think so.

If that is the case of Iran which was completely defeated and its culture,religion destroyed how can you expect the same from India with its culture,religion alive and kicking ?

 

[Rafi]

Porus is regarded with pride, in fact their are epic poems in Punjabi - describing his valour, but Alexander is not vilified either, rather it is described as war between 2 great kings.

In Jhelum (which is a massive recruitment area for Pakistan Army) he is regarded as a local hero, but the people their, get angry when claims are made that he is indian.

People in Pakistan are suspicious when people across the border, make claims about local history.

 

[SQ8]

You'd be surprised how we honor our heros. Hyder Ali and his son Tipu are celebrated as Tigers of Mysore because they were among the first rulers to stand up against the East India Company's expansionist policies! Tipu was the first to use Rockets in warfare, a celebrated fact in the Indian military!
Whoever said Mughals are misguided? Among all te rulers in India's history, only two emperors earned the title "the Great" - Ashoka the Great and then Akbar the Great! Akbar was a Mughal, wasnt he? THe rule of Mughals is as celebrated as the rule of Rajputs or Marathas or the Cholas or any other Sultanates in east and central India.

The Mahabharata is an epic poem, one of the longest poems ever written. Its actually a simple story of how good prevails over evil. To drive home the point, its filled with many interesting subplots, anecdotes, stories etc! Show me a story which can beat the complexity, the interesting nature of Mahabharata? I suggest you should watch the entire series to understand why it captures the imagination of a billion people! It has nothing to do with religion.
Heck, Hindusim wasnt even known as a religion when Mahabharata was written! The Bhagvad Gita, is basically a sermon given on the battlefield by one of the protagonists in Mahabharata to another - a warrior who questioned the morals. This at a time when 'religions' as we know them didnt exist! I am sure everyone of the present day religions will have something which has already been mentioned in the Bhagvad Gita.

You couldnt be more mistaken. India is not ignoring Muslim history, but you are ignoring your rich past. Justifying Pakistan's creation can be debated and the whole ideology can be easily torn apart, but its not a scope of this thread, and neither am I interested. That brings in the question of a mature identity, which you so clearly quoted.

Indian military names of its assets, contrary to popular misbelief, are mostly based on elements of the Universe, keeping in tradition with the rich cultural history of the land. Prithvi (earth), Akash (sk), Sagarika (ocean) etc. What you believe to be "Hindu" or "Sikh" names are attributed to cultures/traditions which originated in India. FYI, Islam didn't originate in India. So tell me the logic of naming systems or assets with Arabic sounding names?

While I still hate the Mughals for being self indulgent and allowing India to succumb to the british.. the Naming of Indian systems even on a cultural basis shows that either those 800 or so years of Islamic influence in India did nothing to the culture?
If then I may ask..what cultural part does the INS rajput play?
It is a section of society as well is it not?
or the Kirpan..the Khukri?
Also.. not as rhetoric..but as a request for views..can one be a Hindu and not pay heed to the Mahabharta?
All ONLY associated with Culture..??
And if they are so honored..why does Indian Media.. and at any rate we get a large volume of it.. choose to focus on either the grandiose of the Mughal..or terrorism?....It is possible I may have missed out..
But in all the programing I have watched on the Zee television network..and on the local Star Network productions.. Muslims have not been portrayed in a central role with a positive effect of their religion.
Again.. I may be ignorant of ground realties but that is solely what Indian media..is portraying in its transmissions out of its borders.
The ignorance of History on Pakistan's part is largely due to the fact that the majority of Pakistan's population follows a religion whose historical effect is what led to the two nation theory in the first place.
Now..as far as the Arabic names are concerned...if you did not notice.. the preferred language of Islam is Arabic.
And while many of our names are Arabic..
Many are persian ..
Reflecting on what the majority of the population inherits..
On a university level.. even in museums.. across Pakistan..
There is less attention paid to the Mughals..or even the early Muslim rulers.. than that paid to pre Islamic history of India.

I am a Hindu-Muslim..
But ... I am a Muslim because of those that came from Arabia and preached and married in the population.
So yes..while My genetics may have something in common with yours... they are inherently different due to the influence of the Arabian peninsula.
But then.. I am a small section of the population..
What claim can a Rajput on this side give to another Rajput..?
Quite simple..His genetics may be common.. but his shaping is entirely different due to the introduction of Islam in his life.
Then is it not prudent..that the factor that sets him aside from others that share his genetic makeup.. is what should be preached the most?

If you were a practicing Christian.. would you not tell of the exploits of the St Paul or Joseph..or the missionary after which a town is named for?? And focus on them?..

But when it comes to forging your identity...The balancing act for an identity in Pakistan starts with the entry of Islam in India...the foundation for the two nation theory..and the existence of Pakistan.
I am NOT saying its correct...I am only trying to explain the logic of it.

And Karthic.. in other words you seem to potray Muslims only having a negative effect on India..and it would have been better off without it??

 

[Rafi]

Questions of identity and history, always has - and always will be linked to politics and self identity.

Identity is made up - different parts.

For example I know a kid, who's British born - but when the Pakistan Cricket Team - play - he will always support that team. But in Soccer he is a fan of England.

For him it is simple.

I am A Muslim, Pakistani, Punjabi, Jatt - and all those are a part of who and what I am, I am also a Shia, and other things are also a part of my overall identity.

 

[KS]

And Karthic.. in other words you seem to potray Muslims only having a negative effect on India..and it would have been better off without it??

I did not say positive or negative influence. It was an alien culture spread partly by force and hence I said what I said.

I accept it as a part of my country's history but not exactly proud of it in a way I am proud of Ashoka or a Chandra Gupta.

And regarding your assertion on INS Khukri or INS Kirpan the simple reasons they were chosen were because they started with 'K' and were the names of weapons.

Its a usual practise in IN to name a ship starting with the same alphabet as the name of the lead ship of her class.Also another interesting fact is corvettes in IN navy invariably have names starting with letter 'K'. Eg :- Khukri class, Kora class, Kamorta class etc

Also I stand by my comment that very few Muslim rulers were praiseworthy and they were few and very far inbetween.

 

[Rafi]

I did not say positive or negative influence. It was an alien culture spread partly by force and hence I said what I said.

I accept it as a part of my country's history but not exactly proud of it in a way I am proud of Ashoka or a Chandra Gupta.

And regarding your assertion on INS Khukri or INS Kirpan the simple reasons they were chosen were because they started with 'K' and were the names of weapons.

Its a usual practise in IN to name a ship starting with the same alphabet as the name of the lead ship of her class.Also another interesting fact is corvettes in IN navy invariably have names starting with letter 'K'. Eg :- Khukri class, Kora class, Kamorta class etc

Also I stand by my comment that very few Muslim rulers were praiseworthy and they were few and very far inbetween.

This is what makes Muslims angry, many clans and tribes in Pakistan like mine, belong to warrior cultures, for example Jatt, Rajput, Gujjar, Pashtun etc etc, there is no way that they could have been converted by force.

The truth is that Sufi Missionaries won over the people and mass conversions started taking place, in my own clan/family history - it was when the elders of the clan converted, all the people followed.

And how can it be alien, when it has been in the land for more than a thousand years.

 

[KS]

In Jhelum (which is a massive recruitment area for Pakistan Army) he is regarded as a local hero, but the people their, get angry when claims are made that he is indian.

I dont get it.

On one hand you guys say this -

But when it comes to forging your identity...The balancing act for an identity in Pakistan starts with the entry of Islam in India...the foundation for the two nation theory..and the existence of Pakistan.
I am NOT saying its correct...I am only trying to explain the logic of it.

But on the other hand try to own the exploits of a 'Hindu' King.

 

[Rafi]

I dont get it.

On one hand you guys say this -

But on the other hand try to own the exploits of a 'Hindu' King.

People in Jhelum do not regard him as a Hindu king - they think of him as a Jhelumi - and are proud of him because he is a local.

 

[KS]

This is what makes Muslims angry, many clans and tribes in Pakistan like mine, belong to warrior cultures, for example Jatt, Rajput, Gujjar, Pashtun etc etc, there is no way that they could have been converted by force.

The truth is that Sufi Missionaries won over the people and mass conversions started taking place, in my own clan/family history - it was when the elders of the clan converted, all the people followed.

What part of "partly took place by force" you did not understand ??

And dont give me this shyt about warrior cultures. When you are outnumbered and hundreds of your kinsmen are being slaughtered in front of your eyes for religion, it is basic human instinct to preserve his life. Now dont tell me you people are all super-human.

And how can it be alien, when it has been in the land for more than a thousand years.

Last time i checked Arabia was not a part of ancient India. So it is an alien culture.

People in Jhelum do not regard him as a Hindu king - they think of him as a Jhelumi - and are proud of him because he is a local.

The fact that he is Jhelumi (whateva that means) doesnt take away the another fact he was a Hindu.

 

[Rafi]

What part of "partly took place by force" you did not understand ??

And dont give me this shyt about warrior cultures. When you are outnumbered and hundreds of your kinsmen are being slaughtered in front of your eyes for religion, it is basic human instinct to preserve his life. Now dont tell me you people are all super-human.




Last time i checked Arabia was not a part of ancient India. So it is an alien culture.



The fact that he is Jhelumi (whateva that means) doesnt take away the another fact he was a Hindu.

Pure bollocks - no wonder you are part of the rss - I repeat there was no forced conversion, you speak like you were there or something.

We have oral history in my clan, of the Sufi - who's tomb we still respect who converted us, This took place over many years, and the invaders at that time - were more interested in building empires than converting people.

Listen he was from Jhelum - so he belongs to his descendants living in that land, and how do you know what his religion was, you speak like you knew the guy personally.

Regarding Arabia - yes Islam came from Arabia - but ideas and ways of doing things have always been passed on to different kinds of people.

By that logic - why be democratic that was also invented in the west, you follow it - because it makes sense.

And Islam has been present in india Pakistan for over a thousand years, it has been here for dozens of generations, and because of that it is indigenous