How to sink an AirCraft Carrier

[SBD-3]

I must admit Gotland is one of the most silent subs around.....

 

[gogbot]

has anyone ever considered the obvious option of Using another carrier group to sink an aircraft carrier.

If you look at the history of Aircraft carriers.

Most aircraft carriers were in fact sunk by other Aircraft carrier.(the aircraft operating from them)

There have been advances in technology since WW2. But that works both ways
Carrier groups are are usually fairly well rounded.
There really is not a Golden bullet to destroy a carrier.

A nuclear weapon does not count as once you open fire using a nuke(nukes counter all conventional weapons). Then you just opened the door that leads to mutual destruction

 

[booo]

how good is the defence of a carrier w.r.t. brahmos? or any other anti ship cruise missile?

 

[ambidex]

a combine force of four frigates,at least 3 subs,some 4-8 missile boats(multi-platform tactical boats) for sea cover cover
and at least a mini squadron(10-15 plane) of fighter planes(FOR AIR COVER) can take out any group of opposing force's frigates,destroyers,missile boats,submarines
and fighter planes guarding any presume enemy AC carrier

and all on suicide mission!! May be it will cost more $$ than a ACC to ACC hunters by involving such massive force dedicated only to kill ACC.

If i am a coastal navy i will never go for ACC group in blue waters for non linear, force on force, sea control, fleet war. Rather i will wait and emphasis to deny their delivery of goods (marines, soldiers, means of war) and services (missile and air strike from sea, c2I) by counter force, anti scouting thus will try to make delivery a staggering burden. Asymmetric counter force sudden and stealthy attacks will be the key to slow the superior navy's control over littoral water and further force them to labour intensive, time consuming and thankless blockade and inspection.

 

[Penguin]

has anyone ever considered the obvious option of Using another carrier group to sink an aircraft carrier.

If you look at the history of Aircraft carriers.

Most aircraft carriers were in fact sunk by other Aircraft carrier.(the aircraft operating from them)

There have been advances in technology since WW2. But that works both ways
Carrier groups are are usually fairly well rounded.
There really is not a Golden bullet to destroy a carrier.

A nuclear weapon does not count as once you open fire using a nuke(nukes counter all conventional weapons). Then you just opened the door that leads to mutual destruction

I'm not entirely sure that most carriers were sunk by other carriers. Submarines feature rather prominently. And of carriers hit by aircraft, quite a few actually sunk only after a 'coup de grace' by sub- or surface launched torpedo or scuttling. With the Japanese, keep in mind also that by war's end, a lot of antishipping is done by non-carrier based aircraft. The fact that allied air supremacy allows for a large number of carriers beying sunk by aircraft does not mean that these are the most suited weapon.

US WW2 carrier losses

Fleet carriers

USS LANGLEY (CV-1) - Sunk February 22, 1942 (Java Sea)
Japanese aircraft attacked her. She was struck by 5 bomb hits. Abandoned and then sunk by U.S. destroyers with guns and torpedoes.

USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) - Sunk May 8, 1942 (Coral Sea)
Japanese aircraft attacked her. She was struck by two torpedoes and two bombs. Abandoned then finished off with five torpedoes a U.S. destroyer.

USS YORKTOWN (CV-5) - Sunk June 8, 1942 (Midway).
Struck by 5 bombs and 2 torpedoes by Japanese planes. Remained afloat but finished off when struck by 3 of 4 torpedoes fired by the Japanese submarine I-168.

USS WASP (CV-7) - Sunk September 15, 1942. (Guadalcanal)
Hit by 2 torpedoes fired from a Japanese submarine I-19. Abandoned then sunk by U.S. destroyer Lansdowne

USS HORNET (CV-8) - Sunk October 26, 1942 (Solomon Islands)
Struck by 2 air launched torpedoes then one of the first Kamikazi's of the war. Final "coup de grace" administered by a Japanese destroyer with four "long-lance" torpedoes.

Light carriers

USS PRINCETON (CVL-23) - Sunk October 23, 1944. (Leyte Gulf)
A lone Japanese pilot placed a bomb squarely between 6 armed torpedo bombers being readied for takeoff on the flight deck. Fires reached the torpedo storage areas. Abandoned.

Escort carriers (Jeep carriers)

USS LISCOMB BAY (CVE-56) - Sunk November 24, 1943. (Gilbert Islands.)
Torpedoed by Japanese submarine I-175 in or near the bomb stowage compartment.The whole after portion of the ship vanished. Immediately the ship was aflame from bow to stern, and one blast followed another.

USS BLOCK ISLAND (CVE-21) - Sunk May 29, 1944 (Canary Islands).
Torpedoed by a German Submarine U-549

USS GAMBIER BAY (CVE-73) - Sunk October 25, 1944. (Leyte Gulf)
Sunk by naval gunfire.The Gambier Bay was sunk by numerous hits from shells.

USS ST LO (CVE-63) - Sunk October 25, 1944.(Leyte Gulf)
Bombed: blew up and sank after a Zero fighter set off her ammunition and aviation gasoline

USS OMMANEY BAY (CVE-79) - Sunk January 4, 1945.
Sunk by a Kamikaze off of Mindoro, Philippines.

USS BISMARK SEA (CVE-95) - Sunk February 21, 1945. (Iwo Jima)
Struck by two Kamikazis. The planes set off uncontrollable fires and exploding ammunition. Abandoned

World Aircraft Carriers List: US Carrier Force Levels
THE LOST AMERICAN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS

UK carrier losses

Courageous 50
Torpedoed and sunk by U-20 17 Sept 1939

Glorious 77
Sunk by gunfire of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau 8 June 1940

Ark Royal 91
Torpedoed by U-81 13 November 1941 off Gibraltar (single torpedo hit)

Audacity D10
Torpedoed and sunk by U-751 off Portugal 21 December 1941

Hermes I95
Caught by Japanese fleet carriers while she had no aircraft aboard; bombed and quickly sunk by Japanese carrier aircraft off Ceylon 9 April 1942.

Eagle 94
Torpedoed and sunk by U-73 during the relief of Malta, 11 August 1942

Avenger D14
Torpedoed and sunk by U-155 off Gibraltar 15 November 1942

Dasher D37
Sunk by explosion during aircraft refueling in the Firth Of Clyde 27 March 1943 (accident)

Japanese carrier losses

Shoho
Sunk by US aircraft in the Coral Sea 7 May 1942

Soryu
Bombed by US aircraft at Midway 4 June 1942; blew up and sank when the gasoline tanks exploded.

Hiryu
Bombed by US aircraft at Midway 4 June 1942; uncontrollable fires; scuttled 5 June 1942.

Ryujo
Sunk by bombs and aerial torpedoes 24 August 1942, off Guadalcanal

Chuyo
Torpedoed and sunk by submarine Sailfish near the Home Islands, 4 Dec 1943.

Nigitsu Maru
Sunk by submarine Hake 12 Jan 1944

Shokaku
Torpedoed and sunk by submarine Cavalla during the Battle of the Philippine Sea, 19 June 1944

Taiho
Hit by one submarine torpedo and blew up due to spreading gasoline vapors, 19 June 1944

Hiyo
Torpedoed and sunk during the Battle of the Philippine Sea, 20 June 1944

Taiyo
Sunk by submarine Rasher off the Philippines, 18 Aug 1944.

Unyo
Sunk by submarine Barb near Hong Kong, 15 Sept 1944

Zuikaku
Sunk by seven bombs and seven aerial torpedoes during Leyte Gulf, 25 October 1944

Chitose
Bombed and sunk during Leyte Gulf, 25 October 1944

Chiyoda
Disabled by aircraft, sunk by cruiser and destroyer gunfire during Leyte Gulf, 25 October 1944

Zuiho
Sunk by multiple bombs and torpedoes during Leyte Gulf, 25 October 1944

Akitsu Maru
Sunk by submarine Queenfish 15 Nov 1944

Shinyo
Sunk by submarine Spadefish in the Yellow Sea, 17 Nov 1944

Shinano
Torpedoed and sunk by Archerfish 29 Nov 1944 while moving to Kure for fitting out

Unryu
Torpedoed and sunk by submarines Redfish off Shanghai 19 December 1944

Kaiyo
Sunk by US aircraft 24 July 1945

Haze Gray & Underway World Aircraft Carrier Lists

 

[gambit]

I'm not entirely sure that most carriers were sunk by other carriers. Submarines feature rather prominently. And of carriers hit by aircraft, quite a few actually sunk only after a 'coup de grace' by sub- or surface launched torpedo or scuttling. With the Japanese, keep in mind also that by war's end, a lot of antishipping is done by non-carrier based aircraft. The fact that allied air supremacy allows for a large number of carriers beying sunk by aircraft does not mean that these are the most suited weapon.

US WW2 carrier losses

Fleet carriers

USS LANGLEY (CV-1) - Sunk February 22, 1942 (Java Sea)
Japanese aircraft attacked her. She was struck by 5 bomb hits. Abandoned and then sunk by U.S. destroyers with guns and torpedoes.

USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) - Sunk May 8, 1942 (Coral Sea)
Japanese aircraft attacked her. She was struck by two torpedoes and two bombs. Abandoned then finished off with five torpedoes a U.S. destroyer.

USS YORKTOWN (CV-5) - Sunk June 8, 1942 (Midway).
Struck by 5 bombs and 2 torpedoes by Japanese planes. Remained afloat but finished off when struck by 3 of 4 torpedoes fired by the Japanese submarine I-168.

USS WASP (CV-7) - Sunk September 15, 1942. (Guadalcanal)
Hit by 2 torpedoes fired from a Japanese submarine I-19. Abandoned then sunk by U.S. destroyer Lansdowne

USS HORNET (CV-8) - Sunk October 26, 1942 (Solomon Islands)
Struck by 2 air launched torpedoes then one of the first Kamikazi's of the war. Final "coup de grace" administered by a Japanese destroyer with four "long-lance" torpedoes.

<snipped>

Haze Gray & Underway World Aircraft Carrier Lists

Keep in mind that these are not true aircraft carriers in the sense that they were designed to aircraft carriers, rather they came from modified battleship or other platforms. Post WW II aircraft carriers are truly designed to be aircraft carriers and the lessons learned from WW II enabled their engineerings to be highly resistant to flooding which is the death knell for ships. To sink a nuclear powered aircraft carrier would require the ship to be standing still and take it, not maneuvering and with its defenses going full tilt.

 

[Penguin]

Keep in mind that these are not true aircraft carriers in the sense that they were designed to aircraft carriers, rather they came from modified battleship or other platforms. Post WW II aircraft carriers are truly designed to be aircraft carriers and the lessons learned from WW II enabled their engineerings to be highly resistant to flooding which is the death knell for ships. To sink a nuclear powered aircraft carrier would require the ship to be standing still and take it, not maneuvering and with its defenses going full tilt.

You will have to be more specific: Yorktown, Wasp and Hornet (CV-5 onwards) are all Essex class fleet carriers, a dedicated CV design, not a conversion. Langley (CV-1) was built as a collier and converted later in life. Lexington (CV2) was laid down as large battlecruiser cancelled under the Washington Treaty prior to launch; redesigned and completed as carrier. The ships was the first US carrier designed to be a fleet, rather than an experimental, unit. Likewise Saratoga CV3. From Ranger onward (CV4) US fleet carriers were designed and built as a carrier. Light fleet carriers were often converted "surplus" light cruiser hulls (Cleveland or Baltimore classes). Escort carriers initially were conversions but later purpose built. All employed merchant hulls (converted or new).

(I can check for the Brits and Japanese, but this would cost me too much time right now)

Anyway, if only post WW II aircraft carriers are truly designed to be aircraft carriers and wwII and prior carriers not, then the whole discussion is moot because there weren't serious attacks on carriers post WWII (by air or sub or otherwise)

 

[nightrider_saulat]

and all on suicide mission!! May be it will cost more $$ than a ACC to ACC hunters by involving such massive force dedicated only to kill ACC.

If i am a coastal navy i will never go for ACC group in blue waters for non linear, force on force, sea control, fleet war. Rather i will wait and emphasis to deny their delivery of goods (marines, soldiers, means of war) and services (missile and air strike from sea, c2I) by counter force, anti scouting thus will try to make delivery a staggering burden. Asymmetric counter force sudden and stealthy attacks will be the key to slow the superior navy's control over littoral water and further force them to labour intensive, time consuming and thankless blockade and inspection.

i am not just talking about sinking down out a single AC but the whole group of destroyers,frigates,corvettes,missile boats and submarines all around it for its defence it
this include all 5-10 surface combatants and 2-4 submarines
of the opposing force around an AC....
but in recent times only 3-6 silent subs like type 214 and gotland subs can do this job along with scout of 10-15 fighter for defending thier upper surface from submarine hunter aircrafts and helicopters
from the AC's

 

[Chanakyaa]

By 2020, I see India being the second largest AC operator in the world and believe me india won't stop after these 4 ACs.

India will only lag behind in the field of Submarines and will not be able to catch up china or USA by 2050.

As a Matter of fact The Third of the IAC , Indegenious Aircraft carrier will NOT be a 40,000 Tonne but Much larger and greater than 60,000 Tonnes as reported in Media.

Perhaps India want a Number of 5-8 Carriers.

Regarding Subs, India is Soon going to Order New Subs and 6 Arihant Class subs are already in pipeline.

But as u say, indeed India will have to go really hard if they want to match China, leave aside US.

 

[Super Falcon]

i think best option will be submarine if sub get enough depth in which aircraft battlr groups destroyers sonar cant see it and when sub reach near to AC it should fire some torpedos to it or atleat 5 subs lauch attack on battle group than the possibillity of succes will be increase because when other subs engage other ships of battle group than battle groups destroyer will be busy to saving themselves thats the time when one sub should launch attack on aircraft carrier

 

[nightrider_saulat]

i think best option will be submarine if sub get enough depth in which aircraft battlr groups destroyers sonar cant see it and when sub reach near to AC it should fire some torpedos to it or atleat 5 subs lauch attack on battle group than the possibillity of succes will be increase because when other subs engage other ships of battle group than battle groups destroyer will be busy to saving themselves thats the time when one sub should launch attack on aircraft carrier

along with figther planes in the sky for the aerial defence against enemy's submarine hunter like P-3 and P-8
and

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is the job of only one sub or two at the most---multiple subs like 4 or 5 cannot do it---they will be too evident.

I am pretty sure the you guys have heard about the hole in the ocean sonar---this sonar can easily detect the silent ones as well.

The a/c carrier can only be taken out by a tactical nuke---I believe that this point was made by my buddy QSAARK on the very first page---.

The carrier may sink or not sink---if it is disabled by an air burst kind of tactical nuclear strike.

Here is how the scenario will work---the first nuc missile would be made an air burst weapons in the viccinity or on top of the carries group---which will result in massive loss of life and infrastructure---all defencive weapons systems will be disabled by this strike---then the second nuc would hit the carrier itself---sending it to kingdom cone.

Anything in the 5 to ten miles radius on the surface will be floating upside down----the sub by herself would have to be atleast ten miles out to launch the nuc, otherwise the concussion would flatten the sub.

Other than that, there is nothing that can take out the ship---only the wrath of God.

The second strike may also be an air burst nuc---that will take out the remaing surface vessels in the carrier battle group and whatever is left of the carrier---but before you do that, you have to decide if the strike is worth it---are you ready for the retaliation.

 

[Chanakyaa]

yes a nuclear torpedo is best option and even if it is intercepted and destroyed the resulting nuclear blast would raise 100 m tidal waves enough to overwhelm the whole carrier group

Exactly.
Leave the carrier... It can take the entire Carrier Fleet in ONE Go !

 

[Red Dwarf]

Why we need to sink the ship. A small attack on the control tower or flight deck will make it just useless.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Why we need to sink the ship. A small attack on the control tower or flight deck will make it just useless.

All the methods that dont involve a Torpedo are quite Impossible. [ Except for the Cruize Missile Attack ]

The control tower can be attacked only by aerial attack and ..
Thats really very very difficult as the Carrier it self has :

#1. SAMs
#2. An Entire fleet of 20+ Fighters ready for Anything in Air
#3. Most probably an AWE&C System Present 24x7 in Air making it extremely difficult to close in the Fleet unNoticed.

Plus, The Destroyers with Cannons are also another Threat.

So the Only real option is Torpedoing the Ship, which actually means u wanna sink it.