How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

[magra]

of course we care. every Pakistani says Kashmiris should have the right to decide if it wants to be independent, or be with Pakistan, or be with India.

allow for a plebiscite? India has never given Pakistan a reason for trusting India.

So you do agree that it was Pakistan who did not follow UN resolution 1948 ?

did India invite Pakistan to do a plebiscite after it annexed Junagarh? after all, it was Pakistan's right, as per the instrument of accession.

If you felt you were wronged, why did you accept the outcome instead of reaching out to UN?

this is the same bullshit indians come up with whenever a kashmiri picks up a gun. oh look, a militant from Pakistan. at least you admit India rigged elections in Kashmir. no reason for Kashmiris to fight. lol

are you saying no militants were pushed by Pakistan to cause trouble in Kashmir?
India admits that the elections in late 1980s in Kashmir was not exactly transparent, but you responded to that in the worst way possible. Kashmiris' life has been hell due to Pakistan's policy of using proxy war since then.

does Bangladesh look like disputed territory to you? so why should India care if elections are rigged in Bangladesh or not? what a stupid example you chose.

When did I say BD is a disputed territory. But sure, dont blame India if it uses any excuse to enter your side of Kashmir (since it is still disputed and you are saying that entering disputed land is fine).

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

So you do agree that it was Pakistan who did not follow UN resolution 1948 ?

Pakistan and India didnt follow the resolution. both objected to it. i dont know what alternate reality you are living in. but of course, you are indian. your narrative is Pakistan is always at fault. India is the blue eyed virgin.

If you felt you were wronged, why did you accept the outcome instead of reaching out to UN?

the will of the people is more important than land and pieces of paper like instrument of accession. Junagarh was majority hindu, obviously they will choose India. Pakistan has always wanted peace, as Jinnah said. but the lands must be distributed fairly, as per the will of the indigenous people of the land. only then can there be justice, which results in peace. but India doesnt see it that way. it wants Junagarh, Kashmir, Sikkim, Hyderabad, etc. when legal rights are useful, India cares about it. when its not useful, India doesnt care. when will of the people is useful, India cares. when it isnt, India doesnt care. India's modus operandi.

India admits that the elections in late 1980s in Kashmir was not exactly transparent

how diplomatically you put it. as if rigging elections is not a big deal.

but you responded to that in the worst way possible. Kashmiris' life has been hell due to Pakistan's policy of using proxy war since then.

of course. Pakistan's fault again. who cares about what the Kashmiris want. best way to find out is to put a year long lockdown and communication blackout, ban some political parties, arrest politicians, and kidnap anyone else they wish. that is the way to ascertain the will of the people and get peace.

But sure, dont blame India if it uses any excuse to enter your side of Kashmir (since it is still disputed and you are saying that entering disputed land is fine).

come to Azad Kashmir and Gilgit and see how disputed it is. come and see how much they want to join India. we can see how much Kashmir loves India through its lockdowns.

Kashmir is only disputed because India is acting like the british. interested in lands whose people dont want their conquerors.

 

[Baibars_1260]

It did not approach UN or tried reaching out to resolve dispute by talks, but directly attacked.

Here are the reasons:
1. In 1948, Pakistan did not go to the UN , India did .
The UN is an ineffective body. It only works when the interests of
powerful nations are at stake. UN couldn't stop the massacre of
Bosnians. It would have done nothing to save the cleansing of
Muslims from Kashmir. In fact we were relieved that when India did
take over its part of Kashmir and it booted communal fascist Raja out

Had you truly wanted to do good for Kashmiris, you would have followed UN Resolution 1948 - 1st conditon of which asked Pak to withdraw all its regular / irregular forces from the entirety of J&K.

2. I disagree with the official Pakistan MEA stance harping on UN resolutions . It is a dead horse and we should never refer to it again. It is hypocritical to talk about the UN resolution which we never had any faith in to begin with.

 

[peagle]

Thanks for admitting that Pakistan was the aggressor as it pushed its irregular forces in Kashmir. It did not approach UN or tried reaching out to resolve dispute by talks, but directly attacked.
In case of East Pak, India tried diplomacy for several months and was never an eager participant in the war.
Even after it did enter, our intentions were only to help and not to capture land. We vacated after liberating BD. Unlike you, who captured Kashmir, rather than giving it back to local Kashmiris and letting them rule it themselves.
Had you truly wanted to do good for Kashmiris, you would have followed UN Resolution 1948 - 1st conditon of which asked Pak to withdraw all its regular / irregular forces from the entirety of J&K.

You people live in a world of fantasies, I am one of those refugees that the maharaja together with the RSS with the blind support of the Indian government and army chased out of Jammu, in the process massacred between 200,000 to 300,000 Muslims, giving Jammu the Hindu majority it has today. That's the total number of Pundits who were in Kashmir in the 1990s, at least they are still alive.

My father was so traumatized by his experiences, that I did not know he was born in Jammu until I received his death certificate in the registry office. He studied law at university, he was expressive when he wanted to be, I can't even imagine the horrors he must have witnessed that he never mentioned it to a son who enjoys history. The only thing you people and the Bengalis know what to do is cry, learn from Pakistanis, who have the strength to move on, you cannot move alone in a conflict.

Learn to have a proper discussion, your every paragraph is designed for point-scoring, not a proper discussion.
You people are sick and stuck in your fantasies, and you will never learn. Like baibars said before, we are loving our popcorn. Baibars is far too gentle in his interpretation of history, but you people are a murderous nation.

Genocide in Jammu
Genocide in Hyderabad
and, massacres of minorities all over India since 1947.

@Baibars_1260
This is a prime example, and I am certain you can see what is happening and yet I am a little surprised that you keep entertaining his arrogant ego. You are a brother/yaar as long as you present a version that suits his Indian mindset/propaganda/fantasies. As soon as you deviate from his worldview, it's a full-on attack with self-conceived truths, mixed with inbuilt self-created righteous crap.

You give an inch they take a mile, that's why now I make sure the point has complete fairness, and not admit to simply realities, but present the whole picture, they take simple realities, twist the story to merge it with their own reality to make a new truth, ignorant of any Indian role, which is bullshit.

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

Learn to have a proper discussion, your every paragraph is designed for point-scoring, not a proper discussion.

precisely why i call him a troll. he is more eloquent than the other trolls, he puts in more effort and words to appear sincere. but his points always come from the same angle that "India is always right and Pakistan is always wrong, but i am here for dialogue". who can have a real dialogue with a rock?

 

[Baibars_1260]

You need to be circumspect of their claims as we have seen most claims of your countrymen not standing up to scrutiny of facts. Most of your countrymen have been fed incorrect version of uncomfortable truths and they have readily internalized the official (but incorrect) versions.

If I were to stand in judgement over every claim here than I would be spending my entire time doing nothing else. We don't claim a monopoly on delusions. Your own countrymen here periodically advise us to revert to the prevailing religion 5000 years back and that India will win a nuclear exchange with Pakistan.
Other delusions your countrymen peddle here :

1. Lahore captured and let go in 1965
2. 93,000 Pakistani POWs in 1971
3. 10,000 Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil
4. 300-400 terrorists killed in the Balakot air strike
5. Two PAF F-16s shot down on February 27, 2019, both PAF pilots lynched by Pakistani mobs.
6. India's Mig 21 came down due to "technical reasons "
7. IAF Mil 17 crashed due to technical reasons.

We wanted to localize or avoid conflicts as much as we can.
In 1999, since initially, your govt lied that they have not sent anyone and it may be militants entering on their own will, India did not want to sound the aggressor to the world by crossing the LOC. India had just come out of major sanctions after the nuclear tests of 1998, so we did care of how western powers thought of India's conduct.

1999 Kargil was exactly the same as the precursor to the 1965 conflict ( but with a different and far more limited objective.). India did threaten to strike across the IB and there was a danger of a nuclear escalation.
Here is what Bill Clinton said.( link )

At this point and for the foreseeable future India will have to weigh its options before attempting to "punish" Pakistan.
This reality is unacceptable to most of your countrymen threatening on the forum here.

I am never to hurl accusations. I always enter to defend India against false accusations. My strong defense may feel like an attack.

Defend your country yourself. I am not here to defend it for you.

 

[magra]

Pakistan and India didnt follow the resolution. both objected to it. i dont know what alternate reality you are living in. but of course, you are indian. your narrative is Pakistan is always at fault. India is the blue eyed virgin.

Where is the question of differing narrative? The UN resolution was very clear.
Step 1) Pakistan withdraws completely.
Step 2) After Pak withdrawal is verified, India keeps bare minimum army presence for law & order, withdraws rest.
Step 3) Plebiscite under UN observance.
Pakistan did not agree to Step 1. The question of Indian objection does not arise since Pak failed on Step 1.

You guys need to accept the truth, however unpleasant it is, else you would never be able to make better decisions going forward. You would continue to make more mistakes. You have been hating India citing UN resolution violation when it was Pak which was in violation all along.

Now is your chance to cut a deal, call it quits, convert LOC to IB and focus on uplifting your country. Else you would continue to be a security state dragging significant resources out of economic development. Continued trips to IMF will be needed.

India being a bigger state can better afford the drag on resources than Pakistan. Overtime, the gap is only going to get bigger and bigger. Later, you may have lesser bargaining power and may end up having to accept a worse deal.

I disagree with the official Pakistan MEA stance harping on UN resolutions . It is a dead horse and we should never refer to it again. It is hypocritical to talk about the UN resolution which we never had any faith in to begin with.

Thank you. What is also a dead-horse is expecting India to ever give up what it has now. Nothing short of a complete break up of India is going to achieve that. So converting LOC to IB is the least worst outcome.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Where is the question of differing narrative? The UN resolution was very clear.
Step 1) Pakistan withdraws completely.
Step 2) After Pak withdrawal is verified, India keeps bare minimum army presence for law & order, withdraws rest.
Step 3) Plebiscite under UN observance.
Pakistan did not agree to Step 1. The question of Indian objection does not arise since Pak failed on Step 1.

Who cares for the UN? These are just optics. What matters is the "yield " and CEP. Old India's majoritarian outlook has dismembered your nation, created a permanent religious conflict, and created a nuclear threat to your "civilization ".
It is far more than a mere territorial dispute.

Now is your chance to cut a deal, call it quits, convert LOC to IB and focus on uplifting your country. Else you would continue to be a security state dragging significant resources out of economic development. Continued trips to IMF will be needed.

Too late. We offered a deal at the Agra summit between Musharraf and Vajpayee. We don't care if we make a trillion trips to the IMF and get into a quadrillion dollar debt. We are a war time economy. The Vietcong fought a power with an economy 100 times their size. We will fight for our existence for the next 1000 years.

India being a bigger state can better afford the drag on resources than Pakistan. Overtime, the gap is only going to get bigger and bigger. Later, you may have lesser bargaining power and may end up having to accept a worse deal.

Bigger state ? Our tribesmen fought the mighty British Empire for 200 years... When I have stopped laughing will get back to you...
We will in our lifetime see you burst at the seams.

 

[magra]

You people live in a world of fantasies, I am one of those refugees that the maharaja together with the RSS with the blind support of the Indian government and army chased out of Jammu, in the process massacred between 200,000 to 300,000 Muslims, giving Jammu the Hindu majority it has today. That's the total number of Pundits who were in Kashmir in the 1990s, at least they are still alive.

1947 was a torrid time. Independence was bitter sweet as it came along with the partition bloodshed and sectarian violence. Some princely states also terrorized their minorities (Kashmir & Hyderabad).
Any deaths on any side which happened at that time is regrettable. The Maharaja was obviously a tyrant trying to hold onto his seat at any cost. He feared that the democracy movement lead by Abdullah would overthrow him.
This is the first time I am hearing from anyone that Indian govt was involved in the massacre in Jammu. Pakistani versions I have heard till now is that the massacre in Jammu prompted Pak to send its irregulars in Kashmir, which in turn led to Hari Singh acceding J&K to India and then Indian troops entered to push back Pakistan. Are you saying Indian troops were in Kashmir before Hari Singh signed on the papers? Why would they then not stop Pak irregulars from entering and rather focus on killing Jammu muslims?

The only thing you people and the Bengalis know what to do is cry, learn from Pakistanis, who have the strength to move on, you cannot move alone in a conflict.

Have Pakistanis really moved on? Pak has been crying to get Kashmir since 1947. They have tried every legal and illegal trick in the book but cannot achieve the desired outcome. But they would rather die than move on.

Learn to have a proper discussion, your every paragraph is designed for point-scoring, not a proper discussion.

Is calling spade a spade point scoring? What do you want me to do? Accept false allegations?

@Baibars_1260
This is a prime example, and I am certain you can see what is happening and yet I am a little surprised that you keep entertaining his arrogant ego. You are a brother/yaar as long as you present a version that suits his Indian mindset/propaganda/fantasies. As soon as you deviate from his worldview, it's a full-on attack with self-conceived truths, mixed with inbuilt self-created righteous crap.

You give an inch they take a mile, that's why now I make sure the point has complete fairness, and not admit to simply realities, but present the whole picture, they take simple realities, twist the story to merge it with their own reality to make a new truth, ignorant of any Indian role, which is bullshit.

Sure, bully the guy who dares speak the truth. That is what will take Pakistan to its glory.

 

[TheDebSahab]

Instrument of Surrender was signed to Indian commander.

The record needs to be set straight:

There were no more than 55,000 soldiers in East Pakistan, facing a combined force of nearly 9 times that amount. The figure of 93,000 surrendered is absolutely rubbish. In fact, the kill:death ratio of the army in East Pakistan is actually the best out of any conflict.

Another rubbish figure is 3,000,000 killed and 400,000 raped, which not even Bangladesh could prove. In fact, half of the genocide victims were Biharis and Pro Pakistani Bengalis.

Pakistan did not surrender to India. The Instrument of Surrender is to Bangladesh. If Pakistan surrendered to India then India would be in control of Kashmir, West Pakistan, and East Pakistan.

Pakistan was not defeated on the western front. India wasted time occupying miles of empty desert sand, while Pakistan captured land in the fertile lands of Punjab. In Kashmir, Pakistan liberated Chamb which can be used to attack Akhnoor and Jammu, while India occupied a few barren, cold, hills in Baltistan which are of no use.

9,000 Pak army soldiers died from MARCH to DECEMBER. The amount which died from the point when India intervened is far less.

The PAF suffered less casualties than the IAF.

 

[magra]

precisely why i call him a troll. he is more eloquent than the other trolls, he puts in more effort and words to appear sincere. but his points always come from the same angle that "India is always right and Pakistan is always wrong, but i am here for dialogue". who can have a real dialogue with a rock?

If you have followed me so closely, you have observed that I have never shied from accepting the mistakes India have done or what BJP is doing currently. I expect the same from the other side. Else, we will be in the same merry-go-round forever.

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

The UN resolution was very clear.

India objected to it. so did Pakistan.

The question of Indian objection does not arise since Pak failed on Step 1.

it does arise. India objected on what should be done after it. so if we dont agree on all the procedures, there is no point in anyone following step 1.

You would continue to make more mistakes.

as always, its all Pakistan's fault, India is perfect. great dialogue so far.

You have been hating India citing UN resolution violation when it was Pak which was in violation all along.

as always, India is always right, Pakistan is always wrong, says the indian. typical indian.

Now is your chance to cut a deal, call it quits, convert LOC to IB

no need to ask Kashmiris want they want. its not like its their land. as usual. typical indian.

focus on uplifting your country. Else you would continue to be a security state dragging significant resources out of economic development. Continued trips to IMF will be needed.

none of your concern

India being a bigger state can better afford the drag on resources than Pakistan. Overtime, the gap is only going to get bigger and bigger. Later, you may have lesser bargaining power and may end up having to accept a worse deal.

none of your concern. not to mention you forget the role of China in all this.

great talk as always. i learned so, so, so much. typical indian.

If you have followed me so closely, you have observed that I have never shied from accepting the mistakes India have done or what BJP is doing currently. I expect the same from the other side. Else, we will be in the same merry-go-round forever.

lol. you accept India is perfect when it comes to disputes with its neighbours and then you go around talking like you are a free thinking intellectual. you are just a troll trying to act smart and fooling no one.

 

[magra]

If I were to stand in judgement over every claim here than I would be spending my entire time doing nothing else. We don't claim a monopoly on delusions. Your own countrymen here periodically advise us to revert to the prevailing religion 5000 years back and that India will win a nuclear exchange with Pakistan.

You are right on that. No one can claim monopoly on delusions. But am I wrong to expect a bit more from few enlightened men who can see the coast through the fog?
No one realistic expects Pakistanis to give up Islam. If you guys keep recalling your "Golden rule in India", people in India needle you back in their own ways.
Nuclear exchange only has losers, no winners. I hope everyone is clear on that.

Other delusions your countrymen peddle here :

1. Lahore captured and let go in 1965
2. 93,000 Pakistani POWs in 1971
3. 10,000 Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil
4. 300-400 terrorists killed in the Balakot air strike
5. Two PAF F-16s shot down on February 27, 2019, both PAF pilots lynched by Pakistani mobs.
6. India's Mig 21 came down due to "technical reasons "
7. IAF Mil 17 crashed due to technical reasons.

1. I dont know who claims Lahore was captured, but I accept it is a delusion if someone believes that, and I will call it to their face.
2. Not too far off, if you include the army + west Pak civilians right? You did say that civilians wanted to be counted as POWs. Let me know if the numbers still dont add up.
3. Hard to quantify since you had a good mix of state and non-state actors, many bodies you never claimed. What is the count as per your estimate?
4. If no one died, then good for you, isnt it? I dont know if I should believe Indian version here. I have no evidence to believe either one.
5. Indian version is one PAF pilot was mistaken for IAF pilot and lynched. But again, good for you if none of yours idea.
6. I think the Indian version is that the helicopter fell due to friendly fire. I will need to re-confirm that though.

1999 Kargil was exactly the same as the precursor to the 1965 conflict ( but with a different and far more limited objective.). India did threaten to strike across the IB and there was a danger of a nuclear escalation.
Here is what Bill Clinton said.( link )

You can sneak into Kargil backstabbing Vajpayee, and we cant even threaten stiking across IB? However, in reality, we did not even cross LOC in 1999.

At this point and for the foreseeable future India will have to weigh its options before attempting to "punish" Pakistan.
This reality is unacceptable to most of your countrymen threatening on the forum here.

Defend your country yourself. I am not here to defend it for you.

Thats why I am here, when I saw you knowingly playing along with incorrect narratives.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Thank you. What is also a dead-horse is expecting India to ever give up what it has now. Nothing short of a complete break up of India is going to achieve that. So converting LOC to IB is the least worst outcome.

You still don't get it. It is not a territorial dispute.
Either you are stuck in your Nehru mold or you are deliberately misleading. You are representing a vicious fascist state.
We are well aware of your long term goals. Kashmir is a mere side show. You just said in a different post that we are reconciled to the partition of India. This, when every functionary of your government laments the partition, threatens the conquest of Pakistan, the massacre of Muslims, and the reversion "ghar wapasi " of Muslims. We understand Sanskritized Hindi well enough, to follow your RSS supremo Mohan Bhagwat's speech on Durga Puja well. We know exactly what plans you have for us.

Here is something else:
When Pakistan was formed in 1947 we used rubber stamps to mark the demonetized Indian currency notes with the name "Pakistan". We couldn't even print our currency as the British India presses were in Calcutta. The currency notes were so worthless that until India reluctantly transferred some currency to the newly formed State Bank of Pakistan these had no value in the streets of Rawalpindi. Our troops were given food rations directly by the farmers instead of regular salaries. Much later some gold bullion was transferred by the Nizam of Hyderabad to support our currency. We had just 200 rounds of irreplaceable 0.303 ammunition for every rifle for our soldiers, no armor, no vehicles, no airforce, minimal artillery and radio communications. We couldn't even overfly to our eastern wing having neither the range nor the permission for our aircraft to make the trip.
We manufactured nothing, importing our shirt buttons from Britain.
We fought the first Kashmir war under those circumstances and took a third of Kashmir away.
We survived then and we will rubber stamp our currency again if necessary.... if only to fight you.

 

[magra]

India objected to it. so did Pakistan.

it does arise. India objected on what should be done after it. so if we dont agree on all the procedures, there is no point in anyone following step 1.

Give me a credible source to prove that in 1948 India objected to follow Step 2 after Pak's Step 1

as always, its all Pakistan's fault, India is perfect. great dialogue so far.

Did I not accept India's mistake in the non-transparent 1987 Kashmir elections? Am I not accepting collateral damages where innocent Kashmiris have to suffer as well?

no need to ask Kashmiris want they want. its not like its their land.

Did you let Kashmiris decide in 1948? No.
Did you maintain demographics on your side? No, you allowed non-Kashmiris to settle in Kashmir.
Did you leave Kashmir unchanged? No. you gave away Shaksgam valley to China.
After that, Kashmiri Pandits on this side were driven away.
Kashmiris themselves were happy with India till late 80s before the violence spiralled. May be once the violence dies down in a decade or two, cooler heads can debate on what Kashmiris want.

not to mention you forget the role of China in all this.

What is China's role in Kashmir other than you gifting Shaksgam valley and we losing Aksai Chin?

You still don't get it. It is not a territorial dispute.
Either you are stuck in your Nehru mold or you are deliberately misleading. You are representing a vicious fascist state.
We are well aware of your long term goals. Kashmir is a mere side show. You just said in a different post that we are reconciled to the partition of India. This, when every functionary of your government laments the partition, threatens the conquest of Pakistan, the massacre of Muslims, and the reversion "ghar wapasi " of Muslims. We understand Sanskritized Hindi well enough, to follow your RSS supremo Mohan Bhagwat's speech on Durga Puja well. We know exactly what plans you have for us.

So you come to this realization now? You were happy to make a deal till 2014 when BJP was not in power? Will you agree to the deal one day when BJP is ousted?
Making speeches for domestic consumption and winning elections is different from a military doctrine. Even if India defeats Pakistan (without the nuclear exchange) at a great cost, then what? How are we supposed to hold onto the hostile territory? No one with a mind believes those speeches. It is only to fool the unwashed.