How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

[magra]

Whatever the reasons, if someone does a decent thing for you, it needs to be appreciated. Nehru sent a direct letter to Ayub, America and UK pressured Pakistan, effectively saving India, but in return for serious negotiations for settlement of the Kashmir dispute.
It was because the negotiations were not serious, they failed, that built up frustration and pressure on Pakistani leadership, which resulted in the 1965 war.
That's the plain truth.

Well I am not aware if India did agree on any condition in 1962, and if it did, whether the negotations were not of serious nature.
Nehru was too shocked after 1962 and did not live long after. Shastri was too new to assess the situation on as complex an issue as Kashmir. You cannot expect breakthrough results in the first year of his PMship.
Again, as I said, the 'decent' thing that happened in 1962, I do not know if Pak did it as a favor to India or because of its own compulsion.
We also did a decent thing in 1971 and returned all your POWs unharmed (we allowed you to keep small arms so that you can protect yourself against vengeful Mukti Bahini). But you did respond to that decency by back-stabbing Vajpayee in 1999 when he came to Lahore to talk peace.

To linger something is to talk in terms of years, the refugees as a result of the civil war had only been there for a few months, that's not much of a timeframe.

Civil war would have only worsened. Its not as if Bengalis were going to accept W. Pak rule after Operation Searchlight. More refugees were pouring in. We had no choice but to intervene. And it was also in our own national self-interest to weaken the adversary and make the eastern border friendly to India.

That might well be the solution, but to assume it so is to make wild assumptions. A solution is something mutually agreed, not something imposed or acceptance of the status quo, which never delivers peace. A one-sided solution will result in an endless war.

You are right. And we will wait in status-quo till the solution is agreeable to you as well. No need for the status-quo to be violent. India-China are locked in a mostly peaceful status-quo since decades. There have been only ocassional flare-ups with minimal casualties. Why cannot India and Pakistan make the same rule of not caring guns and artillery to the border?
Its not as if we are not giving anything in this solution. We do claim Pak Kashmir (including GB and Shaksgam Valley). We are ready to give up on that claim for the sake of peace. And we ask you to give up on your claim on the valley, Jammu & Ladakh.

Smart thing to do.
Those who went over to fight your ally (who once threatened to nuke us ) , were not "irregulars" but Afghan resistance immortalized in the James Bond movie "The Living Daylights".
We got F-16s to fight the Soviet Air Force and their puppet Afghan Air Force. We also got a breather to develop nuclear weapons.

We shot down Soviet planes, captured their Air Force Commander Alexander Rutskoi.
Along with our US ally and the support of other nations we defeated your ally the mighty Soviet Union . The operations are immortalized in the book by Major General Hamid Gul " The Bears Tears" .
Not bad for a country one sixth India's size. Oh wait I will say it for you :
"Don't forget 1971 ..."
We are discussing what happened after 1971. The clocks didn't stop then.

And we have no issue with you beating Soviets out of Afghanistan.
In fact, India strongly advised Soviet to not enter Afghanistan, but they did not listen to us.

India was mostly non-aligned and only had a need based friendship with Soviet Union. It is similar to what we have with US today. If today, US attacks a 3rd country in Middle east, we are not responsible for it, nor we are aiding them in it. Feel free to respond to that attack and defeat US if you want.

I was only responding to Peagle that having refugees pouring in is a valid reason to intervene.
What I dont understand is that why Afghan refugees are still in Pak when you have successfully defeated Soviets.

 

[peagle]

We also did a decent thing in 1971 and returned all your POWs unharmed (we allowed you to keep small arms so that you can protect yourself against vengeful Mukti Bahini). But you did respond to that decency by back-stabbing Vajpayee in 1999 when he came to Lahore to talk peace.

Retuning the prisoners after doing a robbery is not a decent thing, that's just playing with words. It was not a unilateral return, it was due to peace negotiations involving a third party.

Although I agree Kargil was wrong, and it should not have happened, but it was not a stab in the back, it was simply payback for Siachin.

Its not as if we are not giving anything in this solution. We do claim Pak Kashmir (including GB and Shaksgam Valley). We are ready to give up on that claim for the sake of peace. And we ask you to give up on your claim on the valley, Jammu & Ladakh.

By this logic, Pakistan can claim the whole of Punjab, because historically it's part of the Pakistani region and anything linked to the Indus valley civilization, and then say ok keep that, so we are giving a lot in return for Kashmir, it silly right becuase it doesn't make sense.

Plus, it is not about Pakistan and India, mainly it is the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have to decide. including on the people Pakistani side.

 

[magra]

Retuning the prisoners after doing a robbery is not a decent thing, that's just playing with words. It was not a unilateral return, it was due to peace negotiations involving a third party.

Rescuing your POWs and W. Pak civilians from Bengalis and returning to you unharmed was a favor. India did not get much in return in the peace negotations. And there was no third party at that time, since India was the victor. Bhutto came to India in 1972, it was not held at a third country.

But it was not a stab in the back, it was simply payback for Siachin.

There was no LOC in Siachen to define who can control that area. India got news that Pak army was about to capture that, so India pre-empted.
Calling for peace while simultaneously attacking behind the back is called backstabbing in any culture.

By this logic, Pakistan can claim the whole of Punjab, because historically it's part of the Pakistani region and anything linked to the Indus valley civilization, and then say ok keep that, so we are giving a lot in return for Kashmir, it silly right becuase it doesn't make sense.

By which logic, Kashmir is disputed. There is no land dispute outside of that region. So what personal feeling you may have about Punjab does not matter. If we go by personal feelings then the entire South Asia belongs to India.

Plus, it is not about Pakistan and India, mainly it is the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have to decide. including on the people Pakistani side.

We are back to the same thing. Pak had to vacate entirety of Kashmir as per UN resolution 1948 to allow for plebsicite. It did not happen. Later, it gifted a part of it to China too.
Facts on the ground have changed so much in these 70 years that we cannot go back to plebiscite now. It may be unfair on Kashmiris but they have to accept the bitter pill of permanent partition of Kashmir between India and Pak.
It is similar to how Pashtun lands are partitioned between Pak and Afg, Baloch lands between Pak & Iran, Kurd lands between Iraq, Syria and Turkey.
Bad for them but you cant change national boundaries now.

 

[peagle]

Rescuing your POWs and W. Pak civilians from Bengalis and returning to you unharmed was a favor. India did not get much in return in the peace negotations. And there was no third party at that time, since India was the victor. Bhutto came to India in 1972, it was not held at a third country.


There was no LOC in Siachen to define who can control that area. India got news that Pak army was about to capture that, so India pre-empted.
Calling for peace while simultaneously attacking behind the back is called backstabbing in any culture.


By which logic, Kashmir is disputed. There is no land dispute outside of that region. So what personal feeling you may have about Punjab does not matter. If we go by personal feelings then the entire South Asia belongs to India.


We are back to the same thing. Pak had to vacate entirety of Kashmir as per UN resolution 1948 to allow for plebsicite. It did not happen. Later, it gifted a part of it to China too.
Facts on the ground have changed so much in these 70 years that we cannot go back to plebiscite now. It may be unfair on Kashmiris but they have to accept the bitter pill of permanent partition of Kashmir between India and Pak.
It is similar to how Pashtun lands are partitioned between Pak and Afg, Baloch lands between Pak & Iran, Kurd lands between Iraq, Syria and Turkey.
Bad for them but you cant change national boundaries now.

I think we have reached the end of our discussion.
I really do not enjoy being on a hamster wheel.
Originality is always better than repetition, take care.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Retuning the prisoners after doing a robbery is not a decent thing, that's just playing with words. It was not a unilateral return, it was due to peace negotiations involving a third party.

Although I agree Kargil was wrong, and it should not have happened, but it was not a stab in the back, it was simply payback for Siachin.


By this logic, Pakistan can claim the whole of Punjab, because historically it's part of the Pakistani region and anything linked to the Indus valley civilization, and then say ok keep that, so we are giving a lot in return for Kashmir, it silly right becuase it doesn't make sense.

Plus, it is not about Pakistan and India, mainly it is the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have to decide. including on the people Pakistani side.

peagle.
It is a generational struggle based on two completely incompatible belief systems, and social structure. There never was, never is, and never will be peace.

In time I see a final peace settlement with Israel and the Arabs and with Christianity and Islam. Our beliefs have a common word.

With India Pakistan I am afraid we are hurtling towards our doom.
There was a conflict before with the Mongols which was equally bitter with no resolution in sight. Like the conflict with the Mongols where several countries were destroyed before the Mongol Empire was weakened before it was broken, one country that has to pay this price today is Pakistan.

Those in the diaspora and resident abroad who think that what happens in the subcontinent matters little, are in for a rude shock. The poison has long since passed beyond the boundaries of South Asia into the boroughs of England, the counties of North America and the housing compounds of the Middle East . The first full fledged communal riots amongst expat South Asians are round the corner.

The cricket matches have generated extreme communal feelings.
Religious slogans have rent the air at cricket matches in the Lords and Trafford stadiums. Brawls and pitched riots after cricket matches is inevitable. This is the seed from which communal violence will grow.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the London Metropolitan Police , and other police departments are aware of the possibility of religious violence brewing among the diaspora. They have war-gamed these scenarios.

 

[Baibars_1260]

I think we have reached the end of our discussion.
I really do not enjoy being on a hamster wheel.
Originality is always better than repetition, take care.

It is beyond Kashmir. The Indian Muslims have nothing to do with Kashmir, but they get lynched all the same as do Kashmiris in the rest of India.

Right-wing goons thrash 2 Kashmiri men in Lucknow; one arrested, main accused still out

www.nationalheraldindia.com

Anyway lets get back to some facts and discuss how Pakistan rebuilt it's armed forces after 1971.

if it is of any comfort to you we escaped the postwar horrors of famine our former eastern wing endured.( LINK )
( Viewer discretion advised )

 

[magra]

I think we have reached the end of our discussion.
I really do not enjoy being on a hamster wheel.
Originality is always better than repetition, take care.

I am happy to hear original proposals from you but I am not sure if any different proposal would be practical or acceptable to India.

 

[magra]

peagle.
It is a generational struggle based on two completely incompatible belief systems, and social structure. There never was, never is, and never will be peace.

With India Pakistan I am afraid we are hurtling towards our doom.

You want to make it so. There is no need for a conflict based on belief system. BD and India are on fairly friendly terms. India is friend to Middle eastern countries as well.
During the reign of Akbar, there was no religious conflict in India. Only during Aurangzeb's time did Marathas revolt.
Pakistanis need to get out of the superiority mindset of being the 1000 yr ruling class. Live in the present and work for the betterment of your country, rather than thinking of a Ghazwa-e-Hind.

The first full fledged communal riots amongst expat South Asians are round the corner.

I am not sure about UK, Canada etc, but I dont see any riot happening in US between Indians and Pakistanis for the foreseeable future.

 

[Baibars_1260]

I am happy to hear original proposals from you but I am not sure if any different proposal would be practical or acceptable to India.

Proposal's from India are well known. ( Link )

I hope you are beginning to see my point, when you said because Pakistanis watch " Bahubali" we can all live together. We can't. Our forefathers realized this years back.

It is not as if we like this situation.

You would have to kill all of us to get peace in this region.

 

[peagle]

peagle.
It is a generational struggle based on two completely incompatible belief systems, and social structure. There never was, never is, and never will be peace.

In time I see a final peace settlement with Israel and the Arabs and with Christianity and Islam. Our beliefs have a common word.

With India Pakistan I am afraid we are hurtling towards our doom.
There was a conflict before with the Mongols which was equally bitter with no resolution in sight. Like the conflict with the Mongols where several countries were destroyed before the Mongol Empire was weakened before it was broken, one country that has to pay this price today is Pakistan.

Those in the diaspora and resident abroad who think that what happens in the subcontinent matters little, are in for a rude shock. The poison has long since passed beyond the boundaries of South Asia into the boroughs of England, the counties of North America and the housing compounds of the Middle East . The first full fledged communal riots amongst expat South Asians are round the corner.

The cricket matches have generated extreme communal feelings.
Religious slogans have rent the air at cricket matches in the Lords and Trafford stadiums. Brawls and pitched riots after cricket matches is inevitable. This is the seed from which communal violence will grow.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the London Metropolitan Police , and other police departments are aware of the possibility of religious violence brewing among the diaspora. They have war-gamed these scenarios.

It's an interesting take on things, I can't claim to know any better, but I am hopeful. Although my hope is based largely on my own positive outlook mixed with reason. But your guess is as good as mine.

The West is certainly worried about the spillover, that's for sure, but let's see.

What price does Pakistan have to pay? and why?

 

[Baibars_1260]

Pakistanis need to get out of the superiority mindset of being the 1000 yr ruling class. Live in the present and work for the betterment of your country, rather than thinking of a Ghazwa-e-Hind.

How about India changing its mindset

RSS chief makes 'Akhand Bharat' pitch; suggests Pakistan & Bangladesh 'need reunification'

RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat has stressed the need for 'Akhand Bharat' & claimed that countries such as Pakistan which broke away from India are now in distress.

www.republicworld.com

@peagle
Read the comments in the Republic World link above.

 

[peagle]

I am happy to hear original proposals from you but I am not sure if any different proposal would be practical or acceptable to India.

To be perfectly honest, Pakistan doesn't really give a damn about India. Either it's peace or whatever else.
That's why the emphasis on peace because endless conflict is stupid, for peace you need more than one party, and sensible ideas, and sensible discussions.

We were not discussing proposals, we were discussing history, and you seem to keep going back and forth.
Plus, whilst I try to conclude a discussion by reducing the number of points on which answer is given, you keep enlarging the discussion without reason, you agree on things, but agreement means the talking points get reduced.
You have a habit of opening irrelevant talking points that take the discussion back to zero. That is the definition of a hamster wheel, a pointless discussion, a discussion without an end, a waste of time.

If we all did that, no discussion will ever end. That's ridiculous.

 

[Baibars_1260]

The West is certainly worried about the spillover, that's for sure, but let's see.

Yes, it is worried. There are Sikh Hindu tensions too.

Australia least prepared to fight Hindu 'extremism', admits diaspora NGO group

News Blog

www.counterview.net

What price does Pakistan have to pay? and why?

Analogy : Poland paid the price to finally tip the anti-fascist forces into an alliance in World War 2 which eventually destroyed fascist Germany. The nuking of Pakistan will ensure that whatever is left of its enemy is destroyed by other nations that will avenge Pakistan's destruction.

 

[magra]

Proposal's from India are well known. ( Link )

I hope you are beginning to see my point, when you said because Pakistanis watch " Bahubali" we can all live together. We can't. Our forefathers realized this years back.

It is not as if we like this situation.

You wouod have to kill all of us to get peace in this region.

I used the example of 'Bahubali' to show that we have similar culture at a sub-concious level even though some of us dont like to admit.

We are not mass-murderers. We will continue the deterrence and status-quo till you agree on the peaceful solution we offer.

How about India changing its mindset

RSS chief makes 'Akhand Bharat' pitch; suggests Pakistan & Bangladesh 'need reunification'

RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat has stressed the need for 'Akhand Bharat' & claimed that countries such as Pakistan which broke away from India are now in distress.

www.republicworld.com

The nostalgia of a larger India will remain forever. However, the political and military push would stop once the border dispute is settled. No one needles BD that we will merge them, because there is no border conflict with them. RSS guys only needle Pak.

To be perfectly honest, Pakistan doesn't really give a damn about India. Either it's peace or whatever else.
That's why the emphasis on peace because endless conflict is stupid, for peace you need more than one party, and sensible ideas, and sensible discussions.

We were not discussing proposals, we were discussing history, and you seem to keep going back and forth.
Plus, whilst I try to conclude a discussion by reducing the number of points on which answer is given, you keep enlarging the discussion without reason, you agree on things, but agreement means the talking points get reduced.
You have a habit of opening irrelevant talking points that take the discussion back to zero. That is the definition of a hamster wheel, a pointless discussion, a discussion without an end, a waste of time.

If we all did that, no discussion will ever end. That's ridiculous.

Sir, looks like you are super-charged with irritation today. I am fine with agreeing for future talks and ending our talk for now.

Suddenly he turned saffron and that was the end of a 15 year friendship.

Can you elaborate on this. What do you mean by turning saffron?
And since you had such a long friendship, did you not try to understand what caused the sudden change in his outlook? You dont abandon old friends like this.

 

[peagle]

Dont know how you have a positive outlook. I had to give up my friendship with my favorite drinking buddy of 15 years after he turned saffron. The pandemic had distanced us already but we did meet in a park like old times hoping to sit down with a gin and tonic once happy times were here again. We never discussed politics and when at his place his spouse would make the best aloo paratha or rajma rice for me. The couple were brahmin vegetarians and when they visited us we were scrupulous in maintaining the sensitivities serving vegetarian food cooked only in special pots and served in disposable dishes. Suddenly he turned saffron and that was the end of a 15 year friendship.

I can see your point of view, my positivities are for another time, and another thread. Among my close friends, the Bengali Hindus, his wife's father is originally from Bangladesh, moved in the 1971 period, served in the Indian army, and right now is a BJP councilor in West Bengal and on the Indian army pension. The Behari, again Hindu has BJP legislative members in Bihar and the whole family is very much in the BJP camp. My friend from Mumbai is Muslim, but Bihari, one of his brothers-in-law is an active member of the BJP in a large city in Maharastra. I am surrounded by them, I have seen the change, I see the change. I have other examples of Indian madness and rudeness.

I am hopeful because by nature my mind says why, how, if, this, that, my mind searches for reasons and answers in an automatic mode. I see enough reasons to worry and I see enough reasons to remain positive. I do not know the future, just because I do not know, does not mean I attach myself to the worry and ignore the positives. Thats why I said my guess is as good as yours, and vice versa.

I have never been worried about Pakistan, not once. And, although I wish for peace, I honestly do not care what happens. We have spent far too long looking after the world, especially the Muslim world, it is time to look after ourselves, and our own. So, F... the world and everyone in it, if they want to stop us, let them come.

Analogy : Poland paid the price to finally tip the anti-fascist forces into an alliance in World War 2 which eventually destroyed fascist Germany. The nuking of Pakistan will ensure that whatever is left of its enemy is destroyed by other nations that will avenge Pakistan's destruction.

Actually, I sort of agree, but if we were to go that far, I don't think anything will be left on either side and the world will suffer the after-effects for a long time to come.
I cannot remember the timeframe exactly but in India, they came up with this argument that "at least we will survive after a nuclear clash, there will be nothing left of you, meaning Pakistan" This went on for few years, and there would not be suitable answers from the Pakistani side, always something silly about peace or something else, anything that came to their mind.
Then few years ago, the Pakistanis started using their own reply, something like "we don't care, we will be shahids, but we'll make sure there is nothing left of you, meaning India. At least our nation will continue to live, in the form of 50 Muslim countries, but history will forget you because there will be nothing left" I have not heard the Indian side use their argument again. This is more in tune with your conclusions.
I am still hopeful. But, lets see.

Sir, looks like you are super-charged with irritation today. I am fine with agreeing for future talks and ending our talk for now.

I am not supercharged, but I have conveyed my feelings about endless discussions before. If there is no conclusion, then there is no point in continuing. By nature, I am usually very direct, I tried to be gentle in the conclusion of this discussion. Enjoy your discussions here, maybe we'll touch base on another thread.