How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

[magra]

I am sorry. You are misrepresenting.

It is not I who am "pleading" to convert the LOC into a border but the proposal came from Indira Gandhi's "kitchen cabinet", D. P. Dhar, and P. N. Haksar and Indira Gandhi her self before and during the 1972 Simla Summit.

I am sorry. You are misrepresenting. I said you are pleading to 'stop talking about UN resolutions'. I never said that you are pleading to convert LOC to IB. Thats a mis-attribution of my comments. Hope you are clear on that.

India had just had a sober realization that there would be no surrender in Muxaffarabad and the people of Azad Kashmir are not going to welcome the Indian Army with garlands. India had already tried that and failed.

After 1949, India has never seriously attempted to merge the so-called AJK with India. Aside rhetoric from leaders, our realistic expectation is LOC to IB.

Stop "terrorism" first before normalizing relations

It is indeed difficult to talk to someone who is quite open in pushing terrorists to kill you. Killing India by a thousand cuts is what Pakistan military's agenda has been since it lost Kargil war.

Vajpayee's famous statement to Musharraf .
India is incomplete without Pakistan.

You had the best chance with Vajpayee. His statement did not mean he wanted to merge Pakistan politically, but he meant it in cultural and historical sense.

3. 2014 onwards..
What Simla Agreement?
Entire Kashmir, Aksai Chin, and Gilgit Baltistan is ours. We will bomb you..

Rhetoric has definitely toughened in the Modi regime. They thought that since earlier tactics dont seem to work to end terrorism, let us try a different method. I think some of this has in fact succeeded as it has put Pak on the backfoot. Earlier we used to be reactive, now we are more proactive.

So now India has agreed to a ceasefire before pondering its next moves.

It is a strategically wise decision to quite one border when focus needs to be on other. Pakistan also needed the quite to focus on its internal issues. So a win-win for both.

It will need lots of chillies and lemons on its shiny new weapons.

Yup. We can afford lots of shiny new weapons. So lots of chillies and lemons are being ordered.

The "Nazi" style social and electronic media propaganda has gripped the mindset of the masses in a jingoistic hysteria that is never going to dissipate.Back in the 1970s India's observance of the "1000 year victory" was very low key and hardly mentioned. The 5th Anniversary of the India's intervention in Bangladesh ( December 1975 ) wasn't even celebrated in India as there was no Mujibur Rahman around to congratulate India.

In 1975-76, Mujib or his family was not in power, and the new govt was not particularly pro-India. BD was still a basket case and not an emerging regional success story. India was under emergency rule so the focus was internal rather an external.

There is a serious likelihood of India's fascist regime making a stupid mistake and military blunder.
Which is why the Bulletin of Atomic scientists lists the Doomsday clock at 100 seconds to Midnight.

The regime is likely to make stupid mistakes within India, which I am worried about too. India's external doctrine has been fairly consistent irrespective of regimes.

No one is pleading. Your 5000 year civilization is likely to be destroyed very shortly because of your delusions and stupidity.

Regimes have come and gone but this civilization has remained strong, since it is fairly flexible and self-correcting. Do not worry too much about us.

I will have to report you to the mods for misrepresenting and trolling.

Shauk se janaab. Aapka forum, aapke rules. Its like a child running away after batting saying mera bat meri batting.

 

[Baibars_1260]

After 1949, India has never seriously attempted to merge the so-called AJK with India. Aside rhetoric from leaders, our realistic expectation is LOC to IB.

So what happened after 1972 when Pakistan was willing to discuss just that ...
Musharraf had offered exactly the same solution.
Why the emphasis on pilgrims to obscure Sufi shrines instead.
Deflection is a very strong tool of Indian diplomacy. When our foreign minister visited to discuss issues you packed her off to Ajmer Sharif instead.( Link ) . As if a Sufi mystic dead and buried 600 years back is relevant. Why do you do this ?

Regimes have come and gone but this civilization has remained strong, since it is fairly flexible and self-correcting. Do not worry too much about us.

Oh we are not worried about you.
Our civilization in our land too has survived a century and half of Mongol savagery.
The future is not based on our resilience of surviving the past but on the capacity of modern technology to wreak devastation far beyond anything that was imagined just a hundred years ago. Lofty spiritual fatalism aside, a modern world based on competent scientific analyses is less optimistic about our chances survival than we ourselves would want to imagine.
Not that the rest of the world cares for our peoples fate but for the contamination and the residual effects our conflict on the rest if the world. If we were slaughtering each other with swords the world wouldn't care.

Henry Kissinger's warning to Indira Gandhi after India's smiling Buddha test was that Pakistan was likely to develop nuclear weapons went unheeded because to India , Pakistan was a "defeated " incompetent nation. Indira Gandhi never believed Pakistan had the capabilities.
India's underestimation of Pakistan is ingrained in its perceptions and has become the norm. Unfortunately, you will make one last "underestimation"
If historic spirituality is to be the determining factor in India's vision of the future than all we can say is that even the Soviets with their idealism knew that there was no world other than the present.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Pakistan is super-interested. You keep asking for solving this central issue before proceeding to normalize ties. But what constitutes settlement is different in Pak's eyes. Pakistan wants to gobble entire Kashmir as settlement. India just wants to covert de-facto to de-jure.

Correction:
Pakistan doesn't want to "gobble up " Kashmir but wants self determination for the Kashmiri people.
The situation has changed.
It is recognized that Kashmiris in India are now focused on achieving an independent state.

So far as Pakistan is concerned (in the unrealistic dreams of the Kashmiris people) we are comfortable with that. It is preferable to going to nuclear war.

India of course thinks differently.

 

[Baibars_1260]

You had the best chance with Vajpayee. His statement did not mean he wanted to merge Pakistan politically, but he meant it in cultural and historical sense.

"cultural and historical ". That's what India has always focused on isn't it? The Indian Cultural perspective only .
What else is there to discuss ?
The Indian Parliament resolution?

Rhetoric has definitely toughened in the Modi regime. They thought that since earlier tactics dont seem to work to end terrorism, let us try a different method. I think some of this has in fact succeeded as it has put Pak on the backfoot. Earlier we used to be reactive, now we are more proactive.

Ok so you have put Pakistan on the "back foot" with rhetoric and have ended "terrorism " .

We have paused to clean our artillery pieces. The soot build up is detrimental to barrel life.

Embassies are closed, and the only dialogue is between our DGMO's and flag meeting officers. From our point of view that is a very satisfactory situation. We have boxed in the fourth largest armed forces of the world in an eternal border conflict.

So why are we discussing border settlements ?

 

[magra]

So what happened after 1972 when Pakistan was willing to discuss just that ...
Musharraf had offered exactly the same solution.
Why the emphasis on pilgrims to obscure Sufi shrines instead.
Deflection is a very strong tool of Indian diplomacy. When our foreign minister visited to discuss issues you packed her off to Ajmer Sharif instead.( Link ) . As if a Sufi mystic dead and buried 600 years back is relevant. Why do you do this ?

If Musharraf was ready for a solution, then why did the 2004 solution between Manmohan and Musharraf could not go through. I heard both were ready but something broke down from Musharraf's end later.
Lets try to revisit the draft from then and see if it makes sense to both parties.

Henry Kissinger's warning to Indira Gandhi after India's smiling Buddha test was that Pakistan was likely to develop nuclear weapons went unheeded because to India , Pakistan was a "defeated " incompetent nation. Indira Gandhi never believed Pakistan had the capabilities.
India's underestimation of Pakistan is ingrained in its perceptions and has become the norm. Unfortunately, you will make one last "underestimation"
If historic spirituality is to be the determining factor in India's vision of the future than all we can say is that even the Soviets with their idealism knew that there was no world other than the present.

Just as Pak's 1998 nuclear test was in response to India, India's 1974 test was in response to China. So Pak's readiness to counter was not the equation in deciding to go ahead in 1974.

Correction:
Pakistan doesn't want to "gobble up " Kashmir but wants self determination for the Kashmiri people.
The situation has changed.
It is recognized that Kashmiris in India are now focused on achieving an independent state.

So far as Pakistan is concerned (in the unrealistic dreams of the Kashmiris people) we are comfortable with that. It is preferable to going to nuclear war.

India of course thinks differently.

When the princely state was attacked by Pakistan to try and force merge, whats the guarantee that an independent J&K (consisting of AJK, GB, Indian Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh) would not be attacked again for capture by Pakistan from west or China from east.

 

[magra]

"cultural and historical ". That's what India has always focused on isn't it? The Indian Cultural perspective only .
What else is there to discuss ?
The Indian Parliament resolution?

There is a cultural connection on both sides. You have historical sites here which you remember (Taj Mahal, Nizamuddin Dargah, Ajmer Sharif) and we have sites in Pakistan as well.
Remembering this connection is not a sin.

Embassies are closed, and the only dialogue is between our DGMO's and flag meeting officers. From our point of view that is a very satisfactory situation.

India is better placed to continue this stalemate. With time, the power gap is only going to increase. We want to settle the issue earlier ofcourse as it is a drag on our resources and slows us from our goal, but our situation is not as desperate as Pak.

 

[VkdIndian]

Certain traumas are good since they keep us grounded. 1971 happened because of policies that alienated majority of the population in spite of supposedly common link of religion.

Saying that it all happened because of xyz country or factors beyond our control and we did nothing wrong may not be a good idea after all.

 

[Baibars_1260]

We want to settle the issue earlier ofcourse as it is a drag on our resources and slows us from our goal, but our situation is not as desperate as Pak.

Haven't we been through this before?

That was when the first time we fought. We have the rubber stamps handy .

 

[Baibars_1260]

Just as Pak's 1998 nuclear test was in response to India, India's 1974 test was in response to China. So Pak's readiness to counter was not the equation in deciding to go ahead in 1974.

From 1964-1974, China had nuclear weapons before India.
When did China ever threaten India with a nuclear attack ?
Nobody is fooled that India would risk a nuclear war with China.
Certainly the USA was least bothered about the prospect.
India's nuclear weapons were always and are aimed at Pakistan.
The bluster, to force Pakistan into surrendering.
From your own Frontline Magazine:

"On February 24, 1975, President Gerald Ford lifted the arms embargo against Pakistan, signalling a new arms relationship with that country. External Affairs Minister Y.B. Chavan cancelled his trip to the U.S. Breaching diplomatic etiquette, Kaul publicly attacked the decision. Kissinger replied: The comments of the Indian Foreign Minister are restrained and statesmanlike but those of the Indian Ambassador are unacceptable. Not one to leave well alone and keep quiet, Kaul went on churlishly to retort that Kissingers remarks were unacceptable to him. He lost his privileged access to the U.S. Secretary of State. Kissinger declined private meetings and invitations to tandoori chicken dinners. Kaul became ineffectual but fancied that he had won brownie points with Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, who had an intense, irrational dislike for Kissinger. She wantonly snubbed him when he visited India in October 1974."

Further extract from the US ambassador Daniel Moynihan's official response to India on its nuclear test ( from the above site).

"We are only anxious that other countries like Pakistan should not develop nuclear weapons. That would not only upset the present military balance on the subcontinent but encourage others to go in for nuclear weapons;"

Where does China come into the picture?
India had been developing nuclear weapons since the early 50s .
China is not India's Prime Enemy.
Pakistan is .

 

[magra]

From 1964-1974, China had nuclear weapons before India.
When did China ever threaten India with a nuclear attack ?
Nobody is fooled that India would risk a nuclear war with China.
Certainly the USA was least bothered about the prospect.
India's nuclear weapons were always and are aimed at Pakistan.
The bluster, to force Pakistan into surrendering.

By the same logic, India never threatened Pak with a nuclear attack from 1974-1998, why did Pak build a nuclear bomb then?
Why should we assume that China would never threaten later as well? We will give nuclear weapons if all countries give up that. We do not want to be at any disadvantage vis-a-vis other.
Today, US / Russia are allies. But if 50 years later, they are not and they point their nuclear arsenals on us, we should have a counter.

 

[Baibars_1260]

There is a cultural connection on both sides. You have historical sites here which you remember (Taj Mahal, Nizamuddin Dargah, Ajmer Sharif) and we have sites in Pakistan as well.
Remembering this connection is not a sin.

Emotional blackmail again. That is your only weapon to which we have no response.

Our eyes are dried of tears now .

The generation that left their homes in India, and crossed the Radcliff line carried with them small bags of soil from their ancestral graveyards in their native villages. They willed that these soil samples be interred with their bodies in their graves in Pakistan, so their bodies will still bond with a little bit of Old India in Pakistan. The bags are empty and bodies buried in eternal rest. If it is of any interest to you, there is a bit of India from Haryana, Punjab, UP, Bihar, CP, ( present day Madhya Pradesh I think ) scattered across in our graveyards across Pakistan.

As a policy we no longer teach our children that which was left behind.
It is the future we look to not the past.
Because we are aware of the capacity for emotional leverage we are discouraging religious pilgrimages to India, and have stopped even those that were a local custom on the border and routinely allowed by Pakistani Rangers and their Indian BSF counterparts.

In time India's emotional blackmail will be countered more effectively. It takes almost a century to rid a mindset connected by
1000 years of common heritage.

 

[Baibars_1260]

India never threatened Pak with a nuclear attack from 1974-1998, why did Pak build a nuclear bomb then?

Before Pakistan conducted any tests this is what Indian leaders said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/05/19/key-indian-official-warns-pakistan/c5774a66-c376-443a-b2a5-e443f0528b77/

"But Advani was pointed in his reference today to the disputed state, although he couched it more in terms of Pakistan's stance toward Kashmir than India's.

"Islamabad should realize the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world {and} roll back its anti-India policy, especially with regard to Kashmir," Advani said at a news conference.

Vajpayee's declaration last Friday that India intends to build nuclear weapons, Advani said, "has brought about a qualitatively new stage in Indo-Pakistan relations" and "signifies -- even while adhering to the principle of no first strike -- {that} India is resolved to deal firmly with Pakistan's hostile activities in Kashmir."

Why no reference to China ?

You sowed the wind.

 

[magra]

Emotional blackmail again. That is your only weapon to which we have no response.

Our eyes are dried of tears now .

The generation that left their homes in India, and crossed the Radcliff line carried with them small bags of soil from their ancestral graveyards in their native villages. They willed that these soil samples be interred with their bodies in their graves in Pakistan, so their bodies will still bond with a little bit of Old India in Pakistan. The bags are empty and bodies buried in eternal rest. If it is of any interest to you, there is a bit of India from Haryana, Punjab, UP, Bihar, CP, ( present day Madhya Pradesh I think ) scattered across in our graveyards across Pakistan.

As a policy we no longer teach our children that which was left behind.
It is the future we look to not the past.
Because we are aware of the capacity for emotional leverage we are discouraging religious pilgrimages to India, and have stopped even those that were a local custom on the border and routinely allowed by Pakistani Rangers and their Indian BSF counterparts.

In time India's emotional blackmail will be countered more effectively. It takes almost a century to rid a mindset connected by
1000 years of common heritage.

May you never succeed on this venture

Before Pakistan conducted any tests this is what Indian leaders said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/05/19/key-indian-official-warns-pakistan/c5774a66-c376-443a-b2a5-e443f0528b77/

"But Advani was pointed in his reference today to the disputed state, although he couched it more in terms of Pakistan's stance toward Kashmir than India's.

"Islamabad should realize the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world {and} roll back its anti-India policy, especially with regard to Kashmir," Advani said at a news conference.

Vajpayee's declaration last Friday that India intends to build nuclear weapons, Advani said, "has brought about a qualitatively new stage in Indo-Pakistan relations" and "signifies -- even while adhering to the principle of no first strike -- {that} India is resolved to deal firmly with Pakistan's hostile activities in Kashmir."

Why no reference to China ?

You sowed the wind.

You are saying as if Pakistan prepare nuclear weapons within weeks from scratch after hearing Advani say this. You do know that Pakistan was busy preparing it since a decade or two. 1998 tests by India gave Pakistan an excuse to do tests of its own.
" signifies -- even while adhering to the principle of no first strike " -- India made clear that it will never use nuclear weapons first. So how does it threaten Pakistan?

 

[magra]

Before Pakistan conducted any tests this is what Indian leaders said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/05/19/key-indian-official-warns-pakistan/c5774a66-c376-443a-b2a5-e443f0528b77/

"But Advani was pointed in his reference today to the disputed state, although he couched it more in terms of Pakistan's stance toward Kashmir than India's.

"Islamabad should realize the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world {and} roll back its anti-India policy, especially with regard to Kashmir," Advani said at a news conference.

Vajpayee's declaration last Friday that India intends to build nuclear weapons, Advani said, "has brought about a qualitatively new stage in Indo-Pakistan relations" and "signifies -- even while adhering to the principle of no first strike -- {that} India is resolved to deal firmly with Pakistan's hostile activities in Kashmir."

Why no reference to China ?

You sowed the wind.

One of my posts got deleted for 'trolling' due to your 'chugli' to masterji, dont know which one

 

[Baibars_1260]

You are saying as if Pakistan prepare nuclear weapons within weeks from scratch after hearing Advani say this.

Ask Advaniji and Vajpayeeji that.
Which is why they spoke of " ground realities " . Maybe they believed Pakistan would start from scratch.

You do know that Pakistan was busy preparing it since a decade or two. 1998 tests by India gave Pakistan an excuse to do tests of its own.
" signifies -- even while adhering to the principle of no first strike " --
India made clear that it will never use nuclear weapons first. So how does it threaten Pakistan?

How could a desperate bankrupt truncated nation defeated in war a two and halt decades later, under international sanctions test 6 devices consecutively? Must have been the Chinese ...even though the People's Republic of China signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1992.
So Pakistan got an excuse to test it's devices.
Were India's weapons directed against China or against Pakistan?

Did India ask China to recognize the "ground realities"?
Did India make any statement on China after the nuclear tests ?
How about a statement like this :
"Beijing should realize the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world..."

May you never succeed on this venture

We will try our best. There are some small successes. The partition generation having moved on there is no need for the Lahore bus or Samjhauta express. No flights either. Third party foreign nationals ( except Bangladeshis ) can
enter Pakistan through Wagah. The only Pakistani nationals traveling to India are our minority populations on religious pilgrimages . With a different perception of religious devotion , Pakistanis see no need to visit Ajmer or Nizamuddin. The grave of a dead person, no matter how great is just that...a grave. Hindu and Sikh pilgrims from India visit Pakistan and vice versa. Being an infinitesimal minority the number of minority Pakistanis visiting in India is very insignificant.
The greatest development for Pakistan has been the degradation of the ties with Indian Muslims.
The old generation has mostly died off. With the degradation there has been a change in the mindset. The ties will finally be severed as the last post-independence migrant dies off. There will be borderline fringe syncretic belief populations on the border seeking to maintain their age old customs visiting local Sufi shrines. We can control these populations very easily. We no longer allow our citizens travel to visit shrines such as these:
See the link ...