Ultima Thule
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which weapons you pathetic insect you paranoid @randomradio
blabber out which weapons pakistan get it free from usa you pathetic shit @randomradio 
How should Pakistan tackle S400 acquisition by India? The Drone Swarm Technology....
- Thread starter Fahad Khan 2
- Start date
blabber out which weapons pakistan get it free from usa you pathetic shit @randomradio 
khansaheeb
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Russia’s sale of S-400 missiles to India may destabilise region: FO
The Newspaper's Staff ReporterUpdated October 20, 2018
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Russian President Vladimir Putin meets Indian PM Narendra Modi. — Photo/File
ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office on Friday warned that the sale of Russian S-400 missile system to India could destabilise the region but at the same time downplayed its efficacy, noting that Pakistan had developed capabilities that could defeat India’s planned Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) System.
“The Indian purchase of S-400 missile system is a part of their efforts to acquire a Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) System through multiple sources. This will further destabilise strategic stability in South Asia, besides leading to a renewed arms race,” an FO statement on the missile deal said.
India and Russia had earlier this month signed a $5.43 billion deal for five S-400 ‘Triumf’ missile systems. The deal is being dubbed one of the biggest defence deals recently signed by India.
Says Pakistan compelled to develop capabilities that render defence systems ineffective
Russia would begin deliveries of the missile systems to India by the end of 2020.
ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
India has been working on the development of a multi-layer ballistic missile defence system for a few years now. Besides S-400 deal, India has large-scale cooperation with Israel for BMD development.
Analysts, however, believe that despite heavy investments in developing anti-ballistic missile systems, India may not be able to fully defend itself from strikes by Pakistani missiles in a conflict.
It is feared that the development of anti-ballistic missile systems may give Indian strategists a false sense of security when contemplating military action against Pakistan with the belief that they can take care of an incoming missile.
The possession of such a system could also increase pre-emption tendencies among Indian military planners. Moreover, with the short missile flight time between India and Pakistan, it will be impossible for intercepting incoming missiles.
The FO statement while questioning the effectiveness of the planned BMD said Pakistan had been compelled by Indian attitude “to develop capabilities which render any BMD system ineffective and unreliable”.
It further said that Pakistan remained fully confident of its ability to address threats from any kind of destabilising weapons system.
Pakistan’s National Command Authority had last year specially pointed out the development of Ababeel Missile System that is equipped with ‘Mirv’ capability to defeat BMD. The NCA had described the attainment of Mirv capability as “technological sophistication of Pakistan’s strategic capabilities”.
Published in Dawn, October 20th, 2018
The Newspaper's Staff ReporterUpdated October 20, 2018
Facebook Count817
Twitter Share
164
Russian President Vladimir Putin meets Indian PM Narendra Modi. — Photo/File
ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office on Friday warned that the sale of Russian S-400 missile system to India could destabilise the region but at the same time downplayed its efficacy, noting that Pakistan had developed capabilities that could defeat India’s planned Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) System.
“The Indian purchase of S-400 missile system is a part of their efforts to acquire a Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) System through multiple sources. This will further destabilise strategic stability in South Asia, besides leading to a renewed arms race,” an FO statement on the missile deal said.
India and Russia had earlier this month signed a $5.43 billion deal for five S-400 ‘Triumf’ missile systems. The deal is being dubbed one of the biggest defence deals recently signed by India.
Says Pakistan compelled to develop capabilities that render defence systems ineffective
Russia would begin deliveries of the missile systems to India by the end of 2020.
ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
India has been working on the development of a multi-layer ballistic missile defence system for a few years now. Besides S-400 deal, India has large-scale cooperation with Israel for BMD development.
Analysts, however, believe that despite heavy investments in developing anti-ballistic missile systems, India may not be able to fully defend itself from strikes by Pakistani missiles in a conflict.
It is feared that the development of anti-ballistic missile systems may give Indian strategists a false sense of security when contemplating military action against Pakistan with the belief that they can take care of an incoming missile.
The possession of such a system could also increase pre-emption tendencies among Indian military planners. Moreover, with the short missile flight time between India and Pakistan, it will be impossible for intercepting incoming missiles.
The FO statement while questioning the effectiveness of the planned BMD said Pakistan had been compelled by Indian attitude “to develop capabilities which render any BMD system ineffective and unreliable”.
It further said that Pakistan remained fully confident of its ability to address threats from any kind of destabilising weapons system.
Pakistan’s National Command Authority had last year specially pointed out the development of Ababeel Missile System that is equipped with ‘Mirv’ capability to defeat BMD. The NCA had described the attainment of Mirv capability as “technological sophistication of Pakistan’s strategic capabilities”.
Published in Dawn, October 20th, 2018
Ultima Thule
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already done deal 
Saracen Magic
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Regarding OP, excellent idea by the USAF (I guess they still have some brains left after the F35 drained most of them, but let's see if this actually gets through development.) I've been suggesting drone-swarm tactics for a long time. It's relatively cheap and can be built in Pakistan.
However, we can go further... These UAVs are mostly relevant for SEAD, but not DEAD. For DEAD, we can network drones coupled with loitering cruise missiles, and that would give them the ability to establish Kill Boxes, confirm the exact coordinates of radar sites (after they go dark) and then vector in the loitering munitions to take them out. We won't even need satellite infrastructure for this, as high flying long range UAVs can function as the network bridge.
However, we can go further... These UAVs are mostly relevant for SEAD, but not DEAD. For DEAD, we can network drones coupled with loitering cruise missiles, and that would give them the ability to establish Kill Boxes, confirm the exact coordinates of radar sites (after they go dark) and then vector in the loitering munitions to take them out. We won't even need satellite infrastructure for this, as high flying long range UAVs can function as the network bridge.
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ISI-1
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you extremist shit, islam and pakistan build for peace and harmony and first control suicide bomb blast and declining Economy then consider to annihilation of Hindus @ISI-1
Who's the extremist? Who's frustrated and feeling a pinch of inferiority complex? With such foul, ill-mannered response, the answer is extremely obvious. Relax and wash your dirt filled mouth, heart and mind with strongest detergents available. If you're a muslim, I can recommend plenty of zikr - استغفر الله etcetera.
ISI-1
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I'm glad. I should have known better not to indulge with such hate filled, dirt mouthed ignoramus.
Storm Force
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Pakistan losing USA as a friendly allied state is the best thing that India could have asked for.
USA,severely restricting advanced military hardware even spares is only good for India.
China is not a suitable alternative today
Basel
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Pakistan can buy stuff from West only problem is the high price they ask for high end products, similar happened in 90s with M2K deal.
Storm Force
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You will have to stick to budget options and out of box solutions
IE thunders and Chinease options to counter S400.paid via goods and soft loans
The Europeans are too expensive even for India really
AUSTERLITZ
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Truth is unless pakistan gets 5th gen aircraft its mostly checkmate.Ultimately money talks and you get what you pay for.
S-400 can neutralize conventional fighters(unless flying ground hugging as ground strike aircraft do,or protected by terrain as in kashmir mountain area where s-400 would be less effective but not over the plains of punjab-sindh.) of all pakistani forward airbases from 150-200 kms within indian territory.It can shut down Erieye AWACS support and refuellers from 200-300 km within indian territory.Even if S-400 doesnt shoot down a single fighter itself,if it just takes out the AWACS PAF will be fighting blind,while IAF would have AWACS support.Jf-17s would have no chance against MKIs without AWACS support.Forget rafales with meteors.
Now among the solutions proposed -
1.Drone swarm being proposed here is really mostly attractive in paper.Cheap drones have bad range and cant penetrate hundreds of kilometres of indian territory without being shot down.Spyders and akash would easily shoot these down,but mostly AAA guns will be the most cost effective.Simple ZSU-23 and L-70 bofors can deal with these,and even HMGs might stand a chnace.
What you need are essentially large numbers of loitering munition drones like the israeli HAROP which have been successful in syria.But these are not 'cheap'.India bought 8 harops for 100 million so price is 10-12 million(add inflation to 2009 numbers) each which is 1/3rd the price of a brand new Jf-17 fighter for a one time use throwaway weapon which can still be shot down by AAA.But yes if bought in hundreds such systems can successfully penetrate a SAM defense.I dont know if pakistan has access to such technology from china,because the israeli one isn't available.
The recent deal of 48 UCAV from china is a good move.These drones however are not suicide drones but small Low RCS launch platforms with a couple of missiles.They lack firepower but would complicate matters for IAF and give PAF modest penetration capability.Main thing is only 48 are being bought while the Indian deal for s-400 comes with 6000 missiles .Even leaving out s-400 escort SAMs , if just 2 of the 5 s-400 systems being bought are forward deployed against pakistan in indian punjab and gujarat,you have 2400 s-400 missiles facing pakistan.(3 more protecting delhi core area,mumbai core area and passageway to south india and other on chinese front).Saturation is near impossible against such numbers.
2.Another solution being talked about was ababeel 'MIRV' missile which was the most unrealistic.First of all this is not a MIRV missile at all,there exists in the world no MIRV SRBM/IRBM technology(unless pakistani technology has surpassed superpowers).Neither USA,Russia or China has been able to deploy such tech.MIRVs are employed on huge complex ICBMs and are used to evade BMDefences and to attack soft targets like cities.They are certainly not used against a mobile SAM system like S-400.No independent source has acknowledged ababeel as a true MIRV missile.
3.Babur cruise missile .For me this is actually a workable solution.As far as i know Pakistan currently deploys 23rd and 26 missile group each with around 200 babur missiles.(96 on TELs and 96 reloads).Thats a very good number of around 400 baburs for use.A portion of these can be used for local saturation attacks.Limitations of this tactic would be - India deploys similar numbers of brahmos and babur is the only real capability pak have to strike targets inside India as PAF can no longer do that over indian airspace.Use up too many baburs on s-400s and will be left unable to answer brahmos and SCALP storm shadow LACM.2nd limitation is since babur is subsonic missile its vulnerable to SRSAMs like Spyder, Akash, Barak or even CIWS.But it has advantage of terrain hugging approach which means s-400 can only detect and attack it at modest range of 40 kilometres.
Thus solution is to increase pressure on s-400 increase babur numbers.Deploy more missile groups.
4.Simply either buy S-400 yourself.Or wait for 5th gen fighter with good ECM capability.Around 50 of such fighters will even things out a lot.
Pakistan has time.There will not be any large scale war between India and pakistan,now or possibly ever.Too much to lose for both sides and the world.What S-400 does is create complications for Pakistan's rhetoric on battlefield nukes as forward deployed s-400s can shoot down nasr's easily even from 150 kms within indian territory, being originally designed to shoot down pershing IRBMs and similar weapons over europe.So even though there would not be a real war,it strengthens india's boldness.
The main tactical problem it creates for pakistan is not of a full fledged war but rather it gives India an opening to do what it wasn't sure it could do with impunity until now.Carry our airstrikes on terror camps in case of another mumbai like attack.If S-400 is in position and rafales carry out the attack PAF will not be able to really stop such an hit and run attack.Rafales with Spectra and low RCS would evade sams relatively easily.S-400s would keep PAF response in check and AWACs away.Even with AWACS against meteor armed rafales it would be difficult.But without them it would be suicide.That is the main short term advantage once rafale and s-400 infrastructure is in place which would take another 3-4 years at least.
Paf would have to respond with 5th gen fighters or S-400 itself or concede this advantage.Thats my view of the situation.
S-400 can neutralize conventional fighters(unless flying ground hugging as ground strike aircraft do,or protected by terrain as in kashmir mountain area where s-400 would be less effective but not over the plains of punjab-sindh.) of all pakistani forward airbases from 150-200 kms within indian territory.It can shut down Erieye AWACS support and refuellers from 200-300 km within indian territory.Even if S-400 doesnt shoot down a single fighter itself,if it just takes out the AWACS PAF will be fighting blind,while IAF would have AWACS support.Jf-17s would have no chance against MKIs without AWACS support.Forget rafales with meteors.
Now among the solutions proposed -
1.Drone swarm being proposed here is really mostly attractive in paper.Cheap drones have bad range and cant penetrate hundreds of kilometres of indian territory without being shot down.Spyders and akash would easily shoot these down,but mostly AAA guns will be the most cost effective.Simple ZSU-23 and L-70 bofors can deal with these,and even HMGs might stand a chnace.
What you need are essentially large numbers of loitering munition drones like the israeli HAROP which have been successful in syria.But these are not 'cheap'.India bought 8 harops for 100 million so price is 10-12 million(add inflation to 2009 numbers) each which is 1/3rd the price of a brand new Jf-17 fighter for a one time use throwaway weapon which can still be shot down by AAA.But yes if bought in hundreds such systems can successfully penetrate a SAM defense.I dont know if pakistan has access to such technology from china,because the israeli one isn't available.
The recent deal of 48 UCAV from china is a good move.These drones however are not suicide drones but small Low RCS launch platforms with a couple of missiles.They lack firepower but would complicate matters for IAF and give PAF modest penetration capability.Main thing is only 48 are being bought while the Indian deal for s-400 comes with 6000 missiles .Even leaving out s-400 escort SAMs , if just 2 of the 5 s-400 systems being bought are forward deployed against pakistan in indian punjab and gujarat,you have 2400 s-400 missiles facing pakistan.(3 more protecting delhi core area,mumbai core area and passageway to south india and other on chinese front).Saturation is near impossible against such numbers.
2.Another solution being talked about was ababeel 'MIRV' missile which was the most unrealistic.First of all this is not a MIRV missile at all,there exists in the world no MIRV SRBM/IRBM technology(unless pakistani technology has surpassed superpowers).Neither USA,Russia or China has been able to deploy such tech.MIRVs are employed on huge complex ICBMs and are used to evade BMDefences and to attack soft targets like cities.They are certainly not used against a mobile SAM system like S-400.No independent source has acknowledged ababeel as a true MIRV missile.
3.Babur cruise missile .For me this is actually a workable solution.As far as i know Pakistan currently deploys 23rd and 26 missile group each with around 200 babur missiles.(96 on TELs and 96 reloads).Thats a very good number of around 400 baburs for use.A portion of these can be used for local saturation attacks.Limitations of this tactic would be - India deploys similar numbers of brahmos and babur is the only real capability pak have to strike targets inside India as PAF can no longer do that over indian airspace.Use up too many baburs on s-400s and will be left unable to answer brahmos and SCALP storm shadow LACM.2nd limitation is since babur is subsonic missile its vulnerable to SRSAMs like Spyder, Akash, Barak or even CIWS.But it has advantage of terrain hugging approach which means s-400 can only detect and attack it at modest range of 40 kilometres.
Thus solution is to increase pressure on s-400 increase babur numbers.Deploy more missile groups.
4.Simply either buy S-400 yourself.Or wait for 5th gen fighter with good ECM capability.Around 50 of such fighters will even things out a lot.
Pakistan has time.There will not be any large scale war between India and pakistan,now or possibly ever.Too much to lose for both sides and the world.What S-400 does is create complications for Pakistan's rhetoric on battlefield nukes as forward deployed s-400s can shoot down nasr's easily even from 150 kms within indian territory, being originally designed to shoot down pershing IRBMs and similar weapons over europe.So even though there would not be a real war,it strengthens india's boldness.
The main tactical problem it creates for pakistan is not of a full fledged war but rather it gives India an opening to do what it wasn't sure it could do with impunity until now.Carry our airstrikes on terror camps in case of another mumbai like attack.If S-400 is in position and rafales carry out the attack PAF will not be able to really stop such an hit and run attack.Rafales with Spectra and low RCS would evade sams relatively easily.S-400s would keep PAF response in check and AWACs away.Even with AWACS against meteor armed rafales it would be difficult.But without them it would be suicide.That is the main short term advantage once rafale and s-400 infrastructure is in place which would take another 3-4 years at least.
Paf would have to respond with 5th gen fighters or S-400 itself or concede this advantage.Thats my view of the situation.
danger007
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From US no chance, Israel nope, italy may be but depends on your requirement... and too costly... France, i doubt they sell any offensive platforms. . Sweden - nope... UK- ???
Basel
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US is willing to sell but on their terms and price, while UK, Italy are ready to sell top end products like Aster 30/15, CAMM, EFT, Type-26 ships etc.
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