How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Viper0011.]

Who said MKI is an invisible fighter????? Downplaying it capabilities and advancement in the internet forums won't work in combat arena....... Many guys claiming MKI will step into Pak territory , and MKI advantage will be neutralize due sam network ,awacs etc..... We never started any war until now.... we never played offensive role... ok let us assume IAF is in offensive role..... in that scenario MKI's primary target is to demolish ground based radar and sam network in the pak territory ..... hmmm few days back... many JF fan boys claimed..... JF-17 with awacs support will neutralize MKI radar capability ..... Now you fan boys Increased it's radar capability and decreased AWACS role in internet forums...

Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario.
Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden.
Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.

In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario.
Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden.
Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.

In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!

su 30 mki is not f 22 or f 35 agreed but it is certainly in the class of f 15 export versions or say except the very latest ones with aesa radars.by 2015 or so we will get upgrade mki then it can be compared to latest f 15 also.


Am I right sir

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

SU-30 MKI is more advance then F15, it has 360* radar coverage thrust vector engine which both are not present in f-15

 

[danger007]

Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario.
Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden.
Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.

In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!

What are you??? do you understand what i said ??? read once again please..... the thread is to counter MKI..... instead of using barking so and so why don't you stick to the thread title ....

 

[Pak47]

What are you??? do you understand what i said ??? read once again please..... the thread is to counter MKI..... instead of using barking so and so why don't you stick to the thread title ....

The Thread Tittle states

"How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki"

And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.

Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread.

On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.

 

[danger007]

The Thread Tittle states

"How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki"

And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.

Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread.

On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.

please enlighten me where i derailed thread???? can you point out of those posts.

 

[Rain]

The basic problem is that unlike indian Defense authorities both Pakistani and Chinese are very secretive, they dont disclose anything until and unless it is necessitated by their strategy, So what indians do? they have two options either to agree with senior members who has some inside infos or should quit the forum as tehy will never get the official sources/claims for capabilities of pakistani/chinses systems.

Pakistani members are requested not to divulge any important infos just to quench the thrist of indians. rather they should be careful about national interest. wining an argument with an indian not so important.

 

[fast and furious]

The basic problem is that unlike indian Defense authorities both Pakistani and Chinese are very secretive, they dont disclose anything until and unless it is necessitated by their strategy, So what indians do? they have two options either to agree with senior members who has some inside infos or should quit the forum as tehy will never get the official sources/claims for capabilities of pakistani/chinses systems.

Pakistani members are requested not to divulge any important infos just to quench the thrist of indians. rather they should be careful about national interest. wining an argument with an indian not so important.

And what makes you think that all the info about everything that India has, is in the public domain.lol.

When faced with a dead end (read nothing similar in quality) Indians dont go around on defence forums claiming they have "inside info which is supposed to be secret" or quoting their "defensive doctrine",cos the Indian defence authorities are secretive about being 'secret' as well.


Go figure.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The Thread Tittle states

"How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki"

And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.

Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread.

On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.

SU-30 is a good machine

there is no doubt about it. but nothing is perfect. there are issues that are highlighted by the American pilots in Red flag and few things picked up by the OP which again were confirmed by GAMBIT, there is some issue of sensitivity and love for the plane and fanboys dont like being said against this monster.
the thread is nothing but an amateur attempt to hypothetically discuss how a weaker and smaller adversary must prepare itself if it is faced with something like SU-30.

what really is planned and happens is anyone's guess. Indians can make a thread about possible confrontation with say J-20 with what they have as of now. they might conclude that whatever is in their airforce is enough to deter and defeat J-20, Chinese might disagree, same is the case with Americans regarding their prize F-22 they dont take criticism against it lightly.

a little bit of open heart and mind helps with the discussion we might reach to any conclusion but if its without insults and rhetoric then it shows maturity and confidence.

And what makes you think that all the info about everything that India has, is in the public domain.lol.



Go figure.

Yaar,

relax... its just an open forum of defence enthusiasts. nothing personal. dont take it to heart. people who have the first hand knowledge will never discuss it openly so whatever is in the public domain is left for interpretation.

disagreement and controversy is a natural by-product of such discussion which causes interest and heated debate. now tell me.. how far this thread will go if thread had said, SU-30 is best plane since the invention of wheel? and all had agreed and praised it?

 

[Storm Force]

The QUE4STION " how to counter SU30MKI " ????????????

is not rocket sicence

TO COUNTER A SUPERIOR NUMBERED FORCE in this case 150+ SU30MKI today or 272 su30mki by 2017 you require

1. Superior nos of less capable aircraft with force multiplers to overwhelm the mki
or
2. If you are outnumbered THEN YOU NEED better QUALITY superior technology to OUT GUN your MKI

the JFT THUNDER offers neither of these options today or in the future......ie THE JFT nos are barely 2 sqds and inuction rate is far slower then was being predicted in PDF and JFT is cerainly no tech edge over MKI where a outnumbered PAF could tackle MKI AND surely win the day...

 

[Last Hope]

The QUE4STION " how to counter SU30MKI " ????????????

is not rocket sicence

TO COUNTER A SUPERIOR NUMBERED FORCE in this case 150+ SU30MKI today or 272 su30mki by 2017 you require

1. Superior nos of less capable aircraft with force multiplers to overwhelm the mki
or
2. If you are outnumbered THEN YOU NEED better QUALITY superior technology to OUT GUN your MKI

the JFT THUNDER offers neither of these options today or in the future......ie THE JFT nos are barely 2 sqds and inuction rate is far slower then was being predicted in PDF and JFT is cerainly no tech edge over MKI where a outnumbered PAF could tackle MKI AND surely win the day...

In the future, JF-17 will be capable for second option you mentioned. I cannot comment on will it be superior to SU-30, but it can engage into a dog fight with it.

Plus, number 3 you overlooked is long-range SAM.

 

[danger007]

MKI will cause more damage than JF-17 or any other jets in IAF inventory as of now...... that is why thread is still alive... keep your ego's aside..... whateva we discuss here is just probabilities only, Combat arena is completely different...

 

[fast and furious]

SU-30 is a good machine

there is no doubt about it. but nothing is perfect. there are issues that are highlighted by the American pilots in Red flag and few things picked up by the OP which again were confirmed by GAMBIT, there is some issue of sensitivity and love for the plane and fanboys dont like being said against this monster.
the thread is nothing but an amateur attempt to hypothetically discuss how a weaker and smaller adversary must prepare itself if it is faced with something like SU-30.

what really is planned and happens is anyone's guess. Indians can make a thread about possible confrontation with say J-20 with what they have as of now. they might conclude that whatever is in their airforce is enough to deter and defeat J-20, Chinese might disagree, same is the case with Americans regarding their prize F-22 they dont take criticism against it lightly.

a little bit of open heart and mind helps with the discussion we might reach to any conclusion but if its without insults and rhetoric then it shows maturity and confidence.



Yaar,

relax... its just an open forum of defence enthusiasts. nothing personal. dont take it to heart. people who have the first hand knowledge will never discuss it openly so whatever is in the public domain is left for interpretation.

disagreement and controversy is a natural by-product of such discussion which causes interest and heated debate. now tell me.. how far this thread will go if thread had said, SU-30 is best plane since the invention of wheel? and all had agreed and praised it?

Irfan Bhai, I never mentioned SU-30 or its superiority in my post.Honestly I am not an aviation expert.Although I have learnt quite a lot through this forum.

I was only replying to the policy of India Vs Policy of China,Pakistan about secrecy.
Your post seems to suggest you took it to the heart.

 

[Viper0011.]

SU-30 MKI is more advance then F15, it has 360* radar coverage thrust vector engine which both are not present in f-15

INCORRECT!!! SU 30 is in the class of F 14, offers similar characteristics and with some new tech such as TVC and BARS (which was ALSO modeled after F 14 - track 40, lock on 6). It is very lethal for the region its in but can't compare apples to the beast! SU 30's modified from the original F 14 technology to 2012 obviously so it's a couple of notches above the good old F 14.

If so was the case, Israel, Saudi Arabia and others would be looking into procuring some (including the West, direct or indirect like they've done before).

F 15 is a much better platform. F 22 Raptor is BUILT upon F 15. It's flight performance within its flight envelop is unmatched so far.

Just because you guys had a chance to fly against F 15 at Nellis, doesn't mean that you actually know the capability all the way. Remember, the US designs such exercises to give the other party advantageous situations and to test and train how USAF / USN pilots perform against harsh conditions. PLUS they are really evaluating flight dimensions of a certain jet like SU 30 or whoever is visiting Nellis.

 

[manofwar]

INCORRECT!!! SU 30 is in the class of F 14, offers similar characteristics and with some new tech such as TVC and BARS (which was ALSO modeled after F 14 - track 40, lock on 6). It is very lethal for the region its in but can't compare apples to the beast! SU 30's modified from the original F 14 technology to 2012 obviously so it's a couple of notches above the good old F 14.

If so was the case, Israel, Saudi Arabia and others would be looking into procuring some (including the West, direct or indirect like they've done before).

F 15 is a much better platform. F 22 Raptor is BUILT upon F 15. It's flight performance within its flight envelop is unmatched so far.

Just because you guys had a chance to fly against F 15 at Nellis, doesn't mean that you actually know the capability all the way. Remember, the US designs such exercises to give the other party advantageous situations and to test and train how USAF / USN pilots perform against harsh conditions. PLUS they are really evaluating flight dimensions of a certain jet like SU 30 or whoever is visiting Nellis.

Are you aware that you are comparing an early fourth generation fighter with a 4++ generation fighter, by USAF standards???
Obviously you have just compared the Specifications of the two on wikipedia. But dude Specs are not everything!! Ask Gambit, he knows much better about this than most of the guys at PDF...........