How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Agnostic_Indian]

Just think its suspicious as I previous mentioned. In any case, I don't wish to dwell on it further.
And one more fast fact, that famous brochure may indeed be official but it was not taken from any official website. It's from Prasun K Sengupta who scanned it and posted on his blog.


T/W depends on amount of fuel and payload. You load just 500kgs for a few minutes flight display, it gives a T/W of 1.17 for JF-17.

I can't believe you ppl are still holding on to that 10,000kgf nonsense!!

I think we can go with the official brochure.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Indian Source? That is not an indian source, that is Prasun Sen Gupta. Looks like you don't know much about that guy.

He also claims,
"The MLU kits for the PAF's original 40 F-16A/Bs and 26 F-16A/Bs did contain the APG-68(V)9radar but this component of the order was later withdrawn at Pakistan's request after the 2005 earthquake due to budgetary constraints. The MLU package now includes only the structural life-extension programme and installation of upgraded defensive aids suites and comms suites, both of which are US-origin hardware but will be installed jointly by TAI and ASELSAN in Turkey."

So this CETC brochure is Sengupta's claim?? plain and simple it is not...its the claim of the manufacturer..he simply posted it..

So lets believe that as well.


It was using full afterburner.
Watch JF-17 vs F-16 vs MiG-29 Turn Rate Comparison Video | Break.com

Secondly because it was using after burner...means it was using 86 Kn claimed thrust??

 

[aanshu001]

[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that MKI pilots are IAF's best so JF-17's can't possibly compete?
Well that isn't how it works, PAF would place it's best near the Indian border whether that goes for F-16 or JF-17. [/QUOTE]

I am not saying MKI pilots are best ( I think still most exp pilots fly Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) MKI pilots are mix of new rookies with old. What I am saying Su 30 is bases on Su 27 is tasted platform for decades so design a training manual or exercise is far easy than for a new platform like JF -17.

 

[MiG-21]

So this CETC brochure is Sengupta's claim?? plain and simple it is not...its the claim of the manufacturer..he simply posted it..

Who knows. He may have been playing with photoshop to get some cheap hits on his blog and his work. And looks like it worked pretty well. That thing is almost everywhere.

Secondly because it was using after burner...means it was using 86 Kn claimed thrust??

It looks pretty lit to me.

 

[Viper0011.]

Sir i am not down playing JF-17.... i mentioned many times JF-17 is cost effective fighter.....

while in case of preemptive strike , super su-30mki will be assigned.... as it can carry Brahmos ... and up graded RADAR im not sure about AESA .... might be reduced RCS at the level su-35 ......... in that case upgraded MKI don't need to step into Pak airspace ... because pakistan don't have large area.........

i have one question.... what if MKI uses stand off missiles from the boarder as well brahmos????

The answer is what you can't afford to see in reality.....I think Pakistani have been VERY clear about it. They know their depth isn't that much. They also know that India is conventionally getting much advanced and with the foreign investments coming in, they now have the money to buy 4.5 gen jets in large numbers. Thus, they've focused on the nuclear umbrella and the threshold.

Plus, the standoff weapons existed in 2008 too on both sides....why do you think nothing was done???

Another example is, the NATO....do you think someone can JUST close the doors on NATO and expect NATO to sit back and 'talk' when the nature of this alliance is for military purposes only and to use overwhelming force when need be? There had to be something that made an alliance of all major powers to 'talk' for six months?? You seem smart so I let you figure out the rest.

I've said it many times before, it doesn't matter what India gets or Pakistan gets. UNLESS India knows 200% it'll neutralize Pakistan's military in the first strike, don't do anything like what you are suggesting...EVER.....for the love of God and for the sake of hundreds of millions of people in the region. SAD part is, if anything serious happened.....you'll STILL be living next to each other. So why not use your energies together in human progress than in testy military conflict where no one would win?

 

[abdulbarijan]

Who knows. He may have been playing with photoshop to get some cheap hits on his blog and his work. And looks like it worked pretty well. That thing is almost everywhere.


It looks pretty lit to me.

Your post speaks for itself..

 

[alimobin memon]

Indians believe official source and Pakistani there source .. End of discussion since no one believes anyway

 

[danger007]

The answer is what you can't afford to see in reality.....I think Pakistani have been VERY clear about it. They know their depth isn't that much. They also know that India is conventionally getting much advanced and with the foreign investments coming in, they now have the money to buy 4.5 gen jets in large numbers. Thus, they've focused on the nuclear umbrella and the threshold.

Plus, the standoff weapons existed in 2008 too on both sides....why do you think nothing was done???

Another example is, the NATO....do you think someone can JUST close the doors on NATO and expect NATO to sit back and 'talk' when the nature of this alliance is for military purposes only and to use overwhelming force when need be? There had to be something that made an alliance of all major powers to 'talk' for six months?? You seem smart so I let you figure out the rest.

I've said it many times before, it doesn't matter what India gets or Pakistan gets. UNLESS India knows 200% it'll neutralize Pakistan's military in the first strike, don't do anything like what you are suggesting...EVER.....for the love of God and for the sake of hundreds of millions of people in the region. SAD part is, if anything serious happened.....you'll STILL be living next to each other. So why not use your energies together in human progress than in testy military conflict where no one would win?

My post is in response of preemptive strike mission.... as you mentioned above..... and please tell me are you guys just updating klj radar year by year???? some one claims KLJ v1 is updated to track 5m2 at 140km..... and some one claims V2-will track 5m2 jet at 140???

aren't JF-17 blk 2 getting updated KLJ-v2 radar.....

 

[danger007]

Man this is jan 2009. Klj7 has been further improved in range. The posts from jane are back from 2009 it is not updated .

I think pakistani and Indians both are right. Only real combat can prove what is what. Nobody from both side will agree to the opposing one lets stop this discussion



kanwa news reported there are no immediate plans of replacing the Klj-7 which has a range of "130km" for a fighter size target.

probably with just slight tweaks we can achieve 140-150km range..which is more than enough

and kanwa quoted a high range PAF official

by farhan 990_9

are you talking about KlJ-7 v1 or v2???? I don't know that PAF is upgrading radar year by year.... im expecting improved radar in block jf-17blk 2....

 

[alimobin memon]

are you talking about KlJ-7 v1 or v2???? I don't know that PAF is upgrading radar year by year.... im expecting improved radar in block jf-17blk 2....

There are two klj7 and klj7v2 , however i may have named in correctly for block 1 ... But interview regarding block 2 stated that they are satisfied with the current radar and will be improved then there is full stop"." after that a new paragraph says klj7 can track fighter sized target at 130 km. Since if u are improving radar no one knows how much can that be improved lots of guys have very bad grammar i think the interview just show the detail of current radar in jf17 .

 

[Storm Force]

You have admit it GUYS nothing looks BETTER than the SU30MKI in flight

awesome looking fighter

Let me just repeat what the JFT thunder is trying to counter here in the indian SU30MKI ..

A highly evolved flanker with over a decade of maturity already

Only TVC fighter in the world fully operational TVC engine BESIDES the F22 RAPTOR of USA

AOA equal to twice or three x that of any non TVC fighter

BARS pesa radar generation ahead of the ZHUK ME radar which KLJ series is based on

8-12 BVRS with diffreent seeker both active and semi active to confuse the enemy

tracks 40 targets can engage 6 targets at once

data link to 10 other fighters so no need for AWACS or GCC in war zones

(you need more than rcs to win a air battle) BRUTE POWER, MASSIVE PUNCH BIG ENDURANCE and huge nos in service already with 150 today rising to nearly 275 by 2017.

" is jft ready to fight in this arena " ???????? ARE YOU READY TO RISK ALL ON JFT

 

[Viper0011.]

awesome looking fighter. BARS pesa radar generation ahead of the ZHUK ME radar which KLJ series is based on

8-12 BVRS with diffreent seeker both active and semi active to confuse the enemy
tracks 40 targets can engage 6 targets at once
data link to 10 other fighters so no need for AWACS or GCC in war zones
(you need more than rcs to win a air battle) BRUTE POWER, MASSIVE PUNCH BIG ENDURANCE and huge nos in service already with 150 today rising to nearly 275 by 2017.
" is jft ready to fight in this arena " ???????? ARE YOU READY TO RISK ALL ON JFT

Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.

SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point
Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles.
And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.

Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS.
The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.

 

[danger007]

Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.

SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point
Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles.
And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.

Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS.
The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.

Who said MKI is an invisible fighter????? Downplaying it capabilities and advancement in the internet forums won't work in combat arena....... Many guys claiming MKI will step into Pak territory , and MKI advantage will be neutralize due sam network ,awacs etc..... We never started any war until now.... we never played offensive role... ok let us assume IAF is in offensive role..... in that scenario MKI's primary target is to demolish ground based radar and sam network in the pak territory ..... hmmm few days back... many JF fan boys claimed..... JF-17 with awacs support will neutralize MKI radar capability ..... Now you fan boys Increased it's radar capability and decreased AWACS role in internet forums...

 

[Raje amar]

Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.

SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point
Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles.
And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.

Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS.
The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.

so much for a Vs thread. though i forund many of your posts well balanced.

no aircraft in this world in invincible. even F22 mahve chancess to be get shot by Mig 21. nothing big in that.
one of the advantage for Su 30 in the mentioned senario is no of crew 2 in Su30 and 1 in Jft.

while the pilot is busy in manuvaring the plant to evade an in coming missile the co pilot can easily target the enimy jet. where as in Jft the pilot need to concentrate on evading the attack.

 

[Viper0011.]

so much for a Vs thread. though i forund many of your posts well balanced.

no aircraft in this world in invincible. even F22 mahve chancess to be get shot by Mig 21. nothing big in that.
one of the advantage for Su 30 in the mentioned senario is no of crew 2 in Su30 and 1 in Jft.

while the pilot is busy in manuvaring the plant to evade an in coming missile the co pilot can easily target the enimy jet. where as in Jft the pilot need to concentrate on evading the attack.

Thanks, I'll take the first line (second phrase) as a compliment. My issue with the post I was responding was that you can't bully people on the forum into how macho SU 30 is. As long as the capability is discussed politely, it makes sense. When you take the jet and show off to annoy serious readers, that's not cool.

If you read my posts, I was making the same point, SU 30 is a heavy class air dominance fighter. The fact that it can target three jets at a time with two capable BVR's is enough for its credibility. But then if someone portrays this as 'this is the shyt and nothing else' , that's incorrect. To your point, the heavy class comes with two pilots (very similar radar capability and overall weapons capability to F 14), so two pilots can work better than one, combined with the weight it carries.