How many types of Ballistic missiles India has deployed?

[amardeep mishra]

Ballistic missiles India has? Deployed,not under test.?

3 types of Liquid fuel Prithvi.
4 types Agni? out of which Agni 5 isn't deployed yet and Agni-1 status isn't sure if still in service or withdrawn and Agni 2 and Agni 4 are almost same with same design fired on lifted trajectory to increase range as Agni 4.

That leaves India with only 3 fat Prithvi with no multi launch capabilities as Prithvi is too fat and liquid fueled.
Prahar, Dhanush and K series not deployed yet.
And 3 types of Agni. Total 6 types of Ballistic missiles?

On the other hand Pakistan has Ghauri 1 and Ghauri 2. Then 4 types of shaheen and then Nasr,Abdali and Ghaznavi.
Total 7 types of Ballistic missiles deployed,considering Ghauri 1 and 2 same with different ranges.
Shaheen's status unknown if still deployed or withdrawn, but Shaheen-1, Shaheen-1A and Shaheen 2 deployed. Then Nasr,Abdali,Ghaznavi.
Total 7.

HI dear @shaheenmissile ..
I did not see your thread earlier,Now that i have read your thread,i would like to correct some of the factual discrepancies.Firstly all agni variants except A-5 are under production.A-4 was cleared for production this january- you can go through the official published literature of DRDO to confirm the information- no need to rely on wikipedia!
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/feb_14.pdf
and
here is the launch of A-4 in "deliverable configuration" conducted by none other than SFC.The misile has been cleared for production
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/december_14.pdf

Secondly i would like to comment on the completely erraneous statement regarding A-4. A-2 and A-4 are essentially two very different missiles.Have a look at the picture that i am attaching here-

AGNI-2

AGNI-4

As you can clearly notice some of the prominent features in A4 are-
1)There are no control surfaces in A-4 which means pitch and yaw corrections are obtained by TVC or gimballing the motor.Normally the deflection of motor rarely exceeds +/-8 degrees.and RCS(reaction control system) for roll corrections.

2)No truss structure separating the first and second stage.Instead shrouds have been used

3)Extensive usage of composites instead of maraging steel thereby allowing the missile to hit 4000kms with overall weight of 17tonnes!A-4 is infact smaller than A2 ,but weighs almost the same.In effect A-4 can do 4000kms whereas A2 is limited to 2500-3000kms.

4)Replacement of conventional gyroscopes and hydraulic actuators with MEMS based INS and actuators.

My dear, structural changes of aerial vehicles(be it missile or aircrafts) requires a lot of wind tunnel tests.For instance conventional missiles with external control surfaces use fin deflections to trim flight in a particular flight condition- either pitch,roll or yaw. The effect of fin deflection(de) on overall lift change(Cl) or in turn moment variation(Cm) is studied in wind tunnels.Whereas in case of modern missiles that dont have any external control surfaces,TVC is used to control pitching and yawing and RCS to control rolls. Control requirements are way more stringent in latter case. So when you do any structural modification ,you essentially have to pass your model through the wind tunnel and analyse aerodynamic data produced and then design the control systems for new configuration accordingly- which by no means is an easy task!

And lastly yes,dhanush is operationally deployed with IN.It was although a make shift arrangement by IN to have their own sea based nukes till K-series come online.
K-15 and K-4 have passed all the tests from pontoons and the firing of the missile from arihant would commence this year. Both of them are almost on the verge of getting inducted into the navy!
PS-Till now none of the pakistani missiles have #1,#2,#3 that i mentioned above

 

[vsdave2302]

Cool down my friend, Pls provide me link for the induction of NASR 1/2 Induction in service.

And for my Indian Friends
1. Prahar/Pragati --- My stand IA not interested, pls provide link for the induction Or Army Interest
2. Shaurya, Agni are tech demonstrator --- Pls provide link for the induction

Do you want to say that none of Agni missile is deployed yet?

‘Pakistan made tactical nukes to prevent India from launching war’ | world | Hindustan Times

And this is an "official statement "

Since when did Pakistan Deployed this missile? Prior to that, how many wars did india imposed on Pakistan?

 

[knight11]

Do you want to say that none of Agni missile is deployed yet?



Since when did Pakistan Deployed this missile? Prior to that, how many wars did india imposed on Pakistan?

Dear vsdave On that post I was only asking for the link that indicates that they are been inducted and deployed.

For Agni I got confused and post lot of BS and crap. But my argument lay on the BMLOS like NASR which many pakistani poster are ranting everytime with a simple logic how can Nuclear tip NASR be inducted and deployed without having equipped, trained themselves (PA) to fight under Nuclear radiation environment (NBC), - special uniform for the soldiers to protect them from nuclear environment, special fighting vehicles, protecting their electronics equipment from the nuclear surge etc. Either they are on the suicidal mission to distroy themselves to hurt India or NASR is just a tech demonstration for the speculated Cold start doctrine. Agni is meant for the deterrance with the China, which impose the highest threat and I have no doubt that they are not deployed, infact it should be on priority and also K-15, and K-4. For Pakistan Prithvi is more that enough and no need for Prahaar when there is no NASR. Read my last post.

 

[vsdave2302]

Dear vsdave On that post I was only asking for the link that indicates that they are been inducted and deployed.

For Agni I got confused and post lot of BS and crap. But my argument lay on the BMLOS like NASR which many pakistani poster are ranting everytime with a simple logic how can Nuclear tip NASR be inducted and deployed without having equipped, trained themselves (PA) to fight under Nuclear radiation environment (NBC), - special uniform for the soldiers to protect them from nuclear environment, special fighting vehicles, protecting their electronics equipment from the nuclear surge etc. Either they are on the suicidal mission to distroy themselves to hurt India or NASR is just a tech demonstration for the speculated Cold start doctrine. Agni is meant for the deterrance with the China, which impose the highest threat and I have no doubt that they are not deployed, infact it should be on priority and also K-15, and K-4. For Pakistan Prithvi is more that enough and no need for Prahaar when there is no NASR. Read my last post.

Few years ago there was a report from US that India has deployed Agni 1 and some 18 Agni 2. In last report of Agni IV testing , it was reported that it was choosen from productuion variant. What does this mean? Do they stock the missile such a large number?

 

[shaheenmissile]

HI dear @shaheenmissile ..
I did not see your thread earlier,Now that i have read your thread,i would like to correct some of the factual discrepancies.Firstly all agni variants except A-5 are under production.A-4 was cleared for production this january- you can go through the official published literature of DRDO to confirm the information- no need to rely on wikipedia!
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/feb_14.pdf
and
here is the launch of A-4 in "deliverable configuration" conducted by none other than SFC.The misile has been cleared for production
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/december_14.pdf

Secondly i would like to comment on the completely erraneous statement regarding A-4. A-2 and A-4 are essentially two very different missiles.Have a look at the picture that i am attaching here-

AGNI-2
View attachment 267764
AGNI-4
View attachment 267765
As you can clearly notice some of the prominent features in A4 are-
1)There are no control surfaces in A-4 which means pitch and yaw corrections are obtained by TVC or gimballing the motor.Normally the deflection of motor rarely exceeds +/-8 degrees.and RCS(reaction control system) for roll corrections.

2)No truss structure separating the first and second stage.Instead shrouds have been used

3)Extensive usage of composites instead of maraging steel thereby allowing the missile to hit 4000kms with overall weight of 17tonnes!A-4 is infact smaller than A2 ,but weighs almost the same.In effect A-4 can do 4000kms whereas A2 is limited to 2500-3000kms.

4)Replacement of conventional gyroscopes and hydraulic actuators with MEMS based INS and actuators.

My dear, structural changes of aerial vehicles(be it missile or aircrafts) requires a lot of wind tunnel tests.For instance conventional missiles with external control surfaces use fin deflections to trim flight in a particular flight condition- either pitch,roll or yaw. The effect of fin deflection(de) on overall lift change(Cl) or in turn moment variation(Cm) is studied in wind tunnels.Whereas in case of modern missiles that dont have any external control surfaces,TVC is used to control pitching and yawing and RCS to control rolls. Control requirements are way more stringent in latter case. So when you do any structural modification ,you essentially have to pass your model through the wind tunnel and analyse aerodynamic data produce and then design the control systems for new configuration- which by no means is an easy task!

And lastly yes,dhanush is operationally deployed with IN.It was although a make shift arrangement by IN to have their own sea based nukes till K-series come online.
K-15 and K-4 have passed all the tests from pontoons and the firing of the missile from arihant would commence this year. Both of them are almost on the verge of getting inducted into the navy!
PS-Till now none of the pakistani missiles have #1,#2,#3 that i mentioned above

Good post my friend. Now that you mention I see difference between Agni-2 and 4.
It looks like tech developed for A-5 has been deployed in A-3, A-4.
About TVC in the form of jet vanes or those fins inside rocket exhaust, the tech is used on the basic missiles in Pakistani arsenal.
You may spot the difference between earlier and later versions of Abdali missile. Previous version has no jet vanes in rocket exhaust,just stablizers on outside. But has Delta fins at the front for directional control.
Later version has no fins at the front. That us indicative of having TVC via jet vanes in the exhaust and through them directional control.
Similar modification have been made to all Pakistani missiles. Shaheen series has vernier rockets or sideways rockets on REENTRY vehicle,and that was done in 2004.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Good post my friend. Now that you mention I see difference between Agni-2 and 4.
It looks like tech developed for A-5 has been deployed in A-3, A-4.

Hi dear @shaheenmissile
It was actually the opposite, tech developed for A4 was used on A5 and A3. A4 was in fact test bed for a lot of technologies that find usage in A5. Secondly the Pakistani missiles you posted are not shaheen(the true strategic missile in Pakistani arsenal). And shaheen doesn't have TVC* .the vernier you pointed(in 2nd stage maybe) out is for roll corrections I guess.

Later version has no fins at the front. That us indicative of having TVC via jet vanes in the exhaust and through them directional control.

Hi dear, I think you didn't get me,I was talking about nozzle control where nozzle is deflected using servomechanism- like you find in A4/A5 .I wasn't talking about jet vanes-the deflection of which provide pitching and yawing corrections.you'd however need RCS for roll corrections

Btw can you kindly post a more clear picture because vanes are really not visible in the pic you posted above!
*Secondly,all of the shaheen missiles have external control surfaces(in the first stage) hence there cant be any TVC there

 

[knight11]

Hi dear,
It was actually the opposite, tech developed for A4 was used on A5 and A3. A4 was in fact test bed for a lot of technologies that find usage in A5. Secondly the Pakistani missiles you posted are not shaheen(the true strategic missile in Pakistani arsenal). And shaheen doesn't have TVC .the vernier you pointed out is for roll corrections I guess.

Bingo, A4 was in fact test bed for a lot of technologies that find usage in A5.

Thats the major point.

Few years ago there was a report from US that India has deployed Agni 1 and some 18 Agni 2. In last report of Agni IV testing , it was reported that it was choosen from productuion variant. What does this mean? Do they stock the missile such a large number?

Dear friends these kind of information is out of my reach, nor I can comment of how US got the report or information which they published. It is strictly in control of Strategic control Group. Thats all.

 

[GURU DUTT]

‘Pakistan made tactical nukes to prevent India from launching war’ | world | Hindustan Times

And this is an "official statement "

looks like you are trying to entice indian members in some how revealing indian startegick neuclear and there diliverry assets..... isnt it

nice try

now tell me will any nation who has capacity to make its own nuclear reactors wont have miniturised neuces or will according to you advertise them

sirji jyada to mai nahi janta but can easli say india does have tactical miniturised neuces as well as MIRV tech and that too for at least a decade ...... cheers mate

 

[shaheenmissile]

looks like you are trying to entice indian members in some how revealing indian startegick neuclear and there diliverry assets..... isnt it

nice try

now tell me will any nation who has capacity to make its own nuclear reactors wont have miniturised neuces or will according to you advertise them

sirji jyada to mai nahi janta but can easli say india does have tactical miniturised neuces as well as MIRV tech and that too for at least a decade ...... cheers mate

My friend if you have a problem with the thread avoid commenting here. You don't have to comment on something you dont like.

Hi dear @shaheenmissile
It was actually the opposite, tech developed for A4 was used on A5 and A3. A4 was in fact test bed for a lot of technologies that find usage in A5. Secondly the Pakistani missiles you posted are not shaheen(the true strategic missile in Pakistani arsenal). And shaheen doesn't have TVC* .the vernier you pointed(in 2nd stage maybe) out is for roll corrections I guess.

The Jet vanes i mentioned which are in all Pakistani Ballistic missiles except nasr,as also TVC.
Thrust vectoring is not limited to Gimballed engines,but any ability to turn a vehicle direction by changing the direction of thrust is considered TVC.
For example on Jet planes such as F-22 the enginne is fixed,not gimballed but they still do TVC by using flaps which divert thrusts. So TVC is not limited to Gimbal.

Hi dear, I think you didn't get me,I was talking about nozzle control where nozzle is deflected using servomechanism- like you find in A4/A5 .I wasn't talking about jet vanes-the deflection of which provide pitching and yawing corrections.you'd however need RCS for roll corrections

I dont know what you mean by RCS so cant comment,be more clear plz.
As explained above. thrust vectoring can be done in more than one ways. True that A-5 has a more efficient and advanced TVC. But Pakistani missiles can do shaped/Depressed trajectory same as Indian Missiles,as evident from Missile test videos.

Btw can you kindly post a more clear picture because vanes are really not visible in the pic you posted above!

Zoom in this picture of Ghaznavi's advanced version and you can see the Jet vanes at the bottom. The top fins are fixed and only provide stability,no directional control

An earlier Version of Ghaznavi can be seen here with Bottom fins or stablizers. But later improvements in TVC provided enough stability so that bottom fins were no longer needed.

*Secondly,all of the shaheen missiles have external control surfaces(in the first stage) hence there cant be any TVC there

The fins at the bottom of Shaheen are fixed and cannot be moved. these are for stability,not directional control.

 

[surya kiran]

And lastly yes,dhanush is operationally deployed with IN.It was although a make shift arrangement by IN to have their own sea based nukes till K-series come online.

Oooo. Was not aware of this. How many of these can a Sukanya class carry?

RCS

Roll control systems. Its mainly used to control the roll angles.

 

[shaheenmissile]

Here is Indian AAD using same type of TVC

 

[shaheenmissile]

Centre Puts DRDO Missile Tests on Hold -The New Indian Express
What you guys make of this? Agni-4 not ready yet? As still needs test fire?

 

[kaykay]

Centre Puts DRDO Missile Tests on Hold -The New Indian Express
What you guys make of this? Agni-4 not ready yet? As still needs test fire?

If you can read the article properly it says DRDO want to test but govt deferred it for few reason given in the article.

 

[vsdave2302]

Bingo, A4 was in fact test bed for a lot of technologies that find usage in A5.

Thats the major point.



Dear friends these kind of information is out of my reach, nor I can comment of how US got the report or information which they published. It is strictly in control of Strategic control Group. Thats all.

No the report I am talkingabout is a report of public domain. It also stated that China's career killer is far from being oprationalised.

Centre Puts DRDO Missile Tests on Hold -The New Indian Express
What you guys make of this? Agni-4 not ready yet? As still needs test fire?

No it is put on hold because it is ready. Government told scientists to focus on other ongoing project rathar than to repeat the test of already proven missile.

 

[amardeep mishra]

The Jet vanes i mentioned which are in all Pakistani Ballistic missiles except nasr,as also TVC.
Thrust vectoring is not limited to Gimballed engines,but any ability to turn a vehicle direction by changing the direction of thrust is considered TVC.
For example on Jet planes such as F-22 the enginne is fixed,not gimballed but they still do TVC by using flaps which divert thrusts. So TVC is not limited to Gimbal.

Hi @shaheenmissile
My dear friend i know there are a lot of ways in which net thrust can be vectored in such a manner that the thrust axis(line of action) doesnt pass through the CG thereby creating a net non zero moment or vecturing it in such a manner that there is now a perpendicular or horizontal component of thrust- jet vanes is indeed one such method. Below are some of the popularly known TVC methods-

Courtsey:spaceweb.org

I think you are mistaking hydraulic actuators with flaps.Flaps are basically movable elements along the trailing edge of the wing that change the camber thereby changing the lift coefficient. TVC in aircrafts like f-22 or MKI is rendered by hydraulic actuators that move the exhaust nozzle in either longitudnal plane(for pitch) or lateral plane(for yaw).These very same hydraulic actuators can change the operating point of the engine by changing the throat area.We had it in our propulsion course.
Gimballing itself can exist in many ways for instance
(a)gimballing of the entire engine
(b)gimbaling of the nozzle etc. mostly used for liquid fueled rockets.
In modern solid fueled strategic missiles though servomechanism or hydraulic actuator are used to control the nozzle. Jet vanes are not usually employed in modern ICBMs.
And since there aint any external control surfaces on modern ICBMs/SLBMs the control systems designed to control the nozzle in longitudnal and lateral plane needs to be "optimal".When i say "optimal guidance" i mean to say that finding gain matrix "k" that minimizes the performance index J that i often defined as-
integral of((X.T)*(Q)*(X)) from t0 to tf where X is your state variables(depending on whether you wish to control your missile in longitudnal plane or lateral plane) and Q is a positive definite matrix.PFA my notes-