How many sabres were captured?

[Subramanian]

whats the big deal if the IAF did badly back then?They may do very well today.How does it matter,seriously?

 

[Windjammer]

Come now, if you are so confident that it was Aamir Sharif, then why wait till some one else came up with the name?

Here is your favourite word BUSTED...... read my first post in the link.!!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/85172-last-air-battle-day.html

Secondly, are you sure that a painting should be taken as proof in a historical discussion? Remember that we had this discussion before, and how it turned out for you.

The painter is known to depict his work mostly from gun camera footage and pilot's account, and how you digressed posting some silly Cubist-Revisionist painting is also in the above link.

Again, to sum up:

You have NO proof that the 23 rd Mirage was actually in the hangar, nobody saw it.

Albeit, from other sources, i did learn that it was under repair due to a damaged landing gear, which is enough for me but you are desperate to imply that it wasn't there so it must have been shot down....... without a thread of evidence.

YOur statement that "all Mirages were on the Line up photo" is FALSE.

What, just like NOT mentioning Maqsood Amir as the pilot. Get a grip of your self.

You have no proof or idea where the Mig 21 photo came from. You just whacked it from the Pakdef forum like I pointed out the last time too!

This is what's eating you, since you are unable to gain excess to any info, you see others in the same boat, I even had much better and clearer images than I posted and i have yet to see similar image(s) on any platform
The fact, I was the first person anywhere, to post an image of PAF Block-52 with CFT on this very forum should put an egg on any bankrupt minded person.

 

[SQ8]

whats the big deal if the IAF did badly back then?They may do very well today.How does it matter,seriously?

Because such discussion provide those that genuinely hold an interest in Air warfare to gleam some history and lessons from it.
It also provides jingoistic morons(not you WJ or John.. your disagreements aside I have the exp with both of knowing what they are talking about) with half baked two month internet search engine use ability to come up with ridiculous nationalistic and blind bias statements to appease their fragile ego's.

 

[John Doe]

@ WJ,

Please dont type in haste. Just check your post again, in this thread you say it was Aamir Sharif in an F-6 . In the older thread you say it was Maqsood in a F-86. Do you even know how confused you look? So who was it finally, or do you need more time to make up your mind?

To simplify this discussion, just make a bullet list stating:

What is the origin of the Mig 21 photo?
Who were the PAF and IAF pilots?
What is the location of this dogfight?
What proof do you have for all the above answers?

Please don't post Squadron logos as your source, it really is pathetic. It completely ruins the standard of this forum.

Just repeating the same false stories again and again gets boring to everyone, no? Come up with something new and true, it will only add to the quality of this thread. How many times have you posted this same photo that has no mai-baap?

 

[Windjammer]

Hello boy!!!

Sorry I did not realize this earlier, Windjammer, but I believe that your claim that this photo that you love uploading is of Aamir Sharif in a F-86 Sabre belongs with your other discredited posts that need deletion.

You see, Aamir Sharif was flying an Chinese F-6

And the last time you posted this photo, you said that this was a photo from Flt Lt. Maqsood Amir on 17th December !!!!

Man, isn't it so tough to keep track of your stories? How do you do it? Oh wait , you don't. See below to read your own words:

What's your motto John........ any port in a storm !!!
Agreed, while working and posting, I didn't pay too much attention to the names.... but surely you would grab to any straws to salvage your self. I just glanced at the name Amir, in Santros post without paying much attention to the sir name....but I guess you wouldn't miss the chance of catching a Fish from a Pi** pond.

 

[John Doe]

Is this your version of an apology? Really, you can do better than that!

 

[Areesh]

Is this your version of an apology? Really, you can do better than that!

Yup he can always learn from you. Present other website and authors as some source and when they got busted, come with the excuse "Hey I never made any claim, I just wanted to discuss them".

 

[DarK-LorD]

1 Mirage 3 loss has been confirmed.
11Dec71 18 or 23 Sqn Gnat F.Mk.1 ? 30mm Mirage IIIEP ?Sqn/PAF*
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_327.shtml

 

[Windjammer]

So now we are down from Six to One......anyway, you can see how credible this source is. The title is as below.
Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

11Dec71 1 Sqn MiG-21FL ? R-3S MiG-21FL IAF (A.B. Dhavle KIA: fratricide)

Apart from other discrepancies, a self goal is also considered as an Indian victory.

 

[SQ8]

1 Mirage 3 loss has been confirmed.
11Dec71 18 or 23 Sqn Gnat F.Mk.1 ? 30mm Mirage IIIEP ?Sqn/PAF*
Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

Apparently you need to learn what is listed as a probable to what is confirmed.
I probably shot down a UFO with my BB gun..
nobody has confirmed it though.

 

[DarK-LorD]

France Delivered atleast 24 Mirages before 1971,PAF showcased 22 Mirages & claimed 1 was in hangar this proved that atleast 1 was shot down.So the in reality it might be as high as 5-6.
Aircraft Profile #230. Dassault Mirage

 

[Windjammer]

France Delivered atleast 24 Mirages before 1971,PAF showcased 22 Mirages & claimed 1 was in hangar this proved that atleast 1 was shot down.So the in reality it might be as high as 5-6.
Aircraft Profile #230. Dassault Mirage

One Mirage was lost in a flame out accident six month before the war actually started.

 

[toxic_pus]

Here is an interesting data, from SIPRI.

24 Migare IIIIs were ordered in 1967 and all of these were received in 1968. 30 Mirage 5s were again ordered in 1970 and curiously, at least some of those were received in 1971. IIRC, France had imposed an embargo on Pakistan right before the war (I can be very much wrong about this embargo). So when did these Mirage 5s arrive in Pakistan? Before the embargo, or right after the war when embargo was lifted.

Is there any record of Mirage 5s operating during 1971 war?

 

[Windjammer]

Mirage 5 PA Ground-Attack 28 28 1973-1979 Dassault-Breguet
(France)
Mirage 5 DPA Trainer 4 4 1973 Dassault-Breguet
(France) 4
Mirage 5 PA2/3 Ground-Attack 30 30 1973-1979 Dassault-Breguet
(France)
Mirage 5 DPA2 Trainer 2 2 1973-1979 Dassault-Breguet
(France)
Mirage III O Multi-Role 43 43 1990 Royal Australian Air Force 43
Mirage III OD Trainer 7 7 1990 Royal Australian Air Force 7
Mirage III EE Multi-Role 22 22 1990s Spanish Air Force 22
Mirage III DE Trainer 2 2 1990s Spanish Air Force 2
Mirage III EL Multi-Role 9 9 1990s Lebanese Air Force 9
Mirage III E Multi-Role 40 16 1996- Sagem S.A. /Armee d' l' Air
(France) 16

 

[deckingraj]

THanks for the articlet but buddy atleast understand the question and its response and then the context before pulling in things like that???

I think this latest article of Kaiser Tufail might give you and other fans a good knowledge of PAF's offensives during 71 war.

PAF offensives in 71 war

Where did i say that PAF was not offensive at all??? All i am saying is that PAF hands were full in dealing with the high amount of offensive sorties that IAF was pulling...If we compare the percentage of sorties that PAF and IAF flew it needs no brainer to see unlike IAF PAF had a larger percentage of defensive sorties vs offensive sorties...This is against the broad strategy of PAK in 71 war ..which was - gain as much territory in the western sector to use as bargaining chip in dealing with India...which unfortunately did not happen...

Even this article is saying they wanted to soften up IAF and then hold grounds...Lure IAF to attack PAF bases and not other sensitive places because they were weakly defended...However if we see the results of the war the softening up did not happen the way PAF would have liked...In short IAF offensive sorties rate could not be brought down to the numbers PAF would have liked...This was one of the prime reason they were not able to check the Karachi Bombings or Logowal sector...Both of these incidents were a serious blow to your 71 war effort...


Are you in disagreement with what i am stating above???