How many sabres were captured?

[Windjammer]

Well Basanti dear, seems Alzheimers is taking it's roots...... must be the age factor.
I think it's time you stand up to your claims and prove your worth...... if any.!!!

1. Pakistan shot down 10 MIG-21s, three of them in aerial combat. (2 in Western sector, 1 in East)
2. The gun camera images of two shot down in West available as is the serial number of one plane.
3. India claimed Six PAF Mirages shot down and you are continuing with tantrums of lies.
4. So far, not even one gun camera image/wreckage photo/serial number or pilot's detail has been produced at any level to back up this claim.
5. Instead of digressing every where to salvage your self, I solemnly challenge you to back up your banter.
6. We know it's pack of lies, and you are also a part of it, yet you ask us to explain the numbers in the line up, no JD, it's your call, you for once prove that you have any ground to stand on. Which i highly doubt.
7. So by living in denial, you have proved the MIG-21 photo is not genuine. Well, I am posting them here again and I know, it's a small image, hence I request all members to turn the image into a desk top and see the roundels on the wings, which proves the identity of the doomed jet. But please come back and point out who is right and who is the ardent liar here.
8.And how have you exactly proved all Mirages were not present ? since you are in your prime for "to be or not to be", let me try and put you out of your misery, while 22 Mirages were in the line up, another was in the hangar for repairs..... Because in an incident, during the war, THE Mirage burst it's tyres and in process damaged it's landing gear. BTW, there is a big difference between falsely claiming six and getting all perky about one.
So folks, here is the image of an Indian MIG-21 shot down by an F-86 of the PAF. Please come back with your findings, only then we may get rid of this nonsense.

 

[karan.1970]

Nice debate, and kudos to Santro for ensuring its kept civil (most of the time atleast).. But imho, its a pretty useless debate as I have termed it before. Its like debating on the quality of the packing instead of the quality of the product. In any war, what matters is the end objective which is never met thru a single facet of armed forces' performance but thru the application of all military and diplomatic assets towards meeting that objective.

And we all know what was the result of the war. May be, PAF did perform so much better than IAF (j/k), but then the rest of Pakistani military/govt would have really screwed the pooch big time to have such a major defeat over all.. Isnt it?

 

[Zabaniyah]

Nice debate, and kudos to Santro for ensuring its kept civil (most of the time atleast).. But imho, its a pretty useless debate as I have termed it before. Its like debating on the quality of the packing instead of the quality of the product. In any war, what matters is the end objective which is never met thru a single facet of armed forces' performance but thru the application of all military and diplomatic assets towards meeting that objective.

And we all know what was the result of the war. May be, PAF did perform so much better than IAF (j/k), but then the rest of Pakistani military/govt would have really screwed the pooch big time to have such a major defeat over all.. Isnt it?

The PAF's ability on it's Eastern sector was pretty weak. They only had one squadron of F-86s. It doesn't take a military planner to know that it requires a lot more than F-86s in a region where all three corners are surrounded by an enemy state, add the Bay of Bengal to that, in which the entire Indian eastern coast-line lines up.

Having a secured airspace is a strategic imperative. If one has air dominance initially, it'll give him a huge advantage on the battle field. That is why the Pakistani military took so many casualties from the resulting Indian Blitzkrieg.

I'd also like to add that the Eastern sector was a bit ignored on pretty much all aspects compared to the Western sector during the Pakistan era.

 

[SQ8]

Nice debate, and kudos to Santro for ensuring its kept civil (most of the time atleast).. But imho, its a pretty useless debate as I have termed it before. Its like debating on the quality of the packing instead of the quality of the product. In any war, what matters is the end objective which is never met thru a single facet of armed forces' performance but thru the application of all military and diplomatic assets towards meeting that objective.

And we all know what was the result of the war. May be, PAF did perform so much better than IAF (j/k), but then the rest of Pakistani military/govt would have really screwed the pooch big time to have such a major defeat over all.. Isnt it?

They did

The general in the east was too busy romping with multiple women.. Our president was busy romping with his favorite women..
the routine of Pakistani leadership at that time read like a rejected script for "sex, lies and videotape"..
In this case replace the word videotape with eyewitnesses.

Lion led by Lambs.. that is what Pakistani forces are.. from day one till today.

The issue with east Pakistan was simple.. "defense of the east lies in the west".. any more BS of that sort and one wonders why west Pakistan even survived.
The Pakistani people will forever have to carry the burden of their racist and corrupt leadership that mistreated their brethren in the east .. even 6 years before that.. I heard during the 65 war the fervor of the Bengali people for Pakistan was high. They felt for the nation even then. You have to hand it to the So called Aryan superiority folks in the establishment cadre that they managed to screw things up faster than anyone could have done.

In the end.. fate gave both people's a lesson..
Some heard it.. some still find excuses to accuse their own countrymen of being Hindoo's and of impure blood.
Or accuse them of being dishonest Muslims..
May god give them guidance.

If we are all done with this topic.. then Ill close it?

 

[DarK-LorD]

They did

The general in the east was too busy romping with multiple women.. Our president was busy romping with his favorite women..
the routine of Pakistani leadership at that time read like a rejected script for "sex, lies and videotape"..

You are talking about General Rani are you?

 

[Jango]

I heard it somewhere that Gen Niazi and the Indian General who got the instrument of surrender, were both course mates and very good friends during their cadet life, and this did play a part in this,

 

[SQ8]

You are talking about General Rani are you?

She was reportedly ONE of the many women..

 

[deckingraj]

Good work John....

Agreed...

I still don't understand what difference that particular incident makes to the fact we see even today.... which clearly shows the reluctances of PAF or Unwillingness to fight back to the last pilot/plane...... they were Interested in keeping their planes in hardened shelters to save them from being shotdown to show in some damn parade after their loss in the war...... while half of the country was being ripped apart by enemy forces...... whats that show off worth ??

I see lot of logic in what PAF did...Wars are fought on strategy and not emotions...Pak strategy was defense of east lies in west...However after 65 showdown IAF, IA, IN were far better prepared and our strategy was merely to stop any advances of Pak in western sector...Unfortunately for PAK they could not make any significant gains in western sector...There was no reason to loose more plains in offense and left with little or no fire power for defense should IA chose to broaden tha combat sector in western sector...

 

[humanfirst]

I heard it somewhere that Gen Niazi and the Indian General who got the instrument of surrender, were both course mates and very good friends during their cadet life, and this did play a part in this,

Its not just gen.niazi many high ranking officers of both sides were friends and they were having a nice time drinking,playing basketball etc at indian pow camp after surrender.

 

[karan.1970]

I heard it somewhere that Gen Niazi and the Indian General who got the instrument of surrender, were both course mates and very good friends during their cadet life, and this did play a part in this,

Yes, it did play a role in this in a very positive way.. It allowed for the middle ground on which the 2 sides could agree on a surrender which saved a lot of lives on the Pakistani Army and Mukti Bahini side. Since the sentiment in East Pakistan which was at that time more or less over run by Mukti Bahini was all set for a mass slaughter of the Army personnel..

 

[humanfirst]

Did IAF attain complete air superiority over west pakistan as well?Or was it just on east pakistan?

 

[Zabaniyah]

Did IAF attain complete air superiority over west pakistan as well?Or was it just on east pakistan?

That's a different matter.

 

[Areesh]

I see lot of logic in what PAF did...Wars are fought on strategy and not emotions...Pak strategy was defense of east lies in west...However after 65 showdown IAF, IA, IN were far better prepared and our strategy was merely to stop any advances of Pak in western sector...Unfortunately for PAK they could not make any significant gains in western sector...There was no reason to loose more plains in offense and left with little or no fire power for defense should IA chose to broaden tha combat sector in western sector...

I think this latest article of Kaiser Tufail might give you and other fans a good knowledge of PAF's offensives during 71 war.

PAF offensives in 71 war

 

[ali.ali]

Different..............
PAF's offensive's..........

 

[John Doe]

@ WIndjammer:

I like messing with you, just to see you go all Rambo on the keyboard !!

Ok, please read what I last typed and reply only to that. Why copy paste stuff that is irrelevant?

Lastly, are so sure of this Mig-21 shootdown photo's origins, tell us who was the IAF pilot, who was the PAF pilot and when and where did this shootdown take place. The last time I asked you the same, you did not have any believable answer.

PS: Remember to reply to my earlier post , point by point! And give my regards to Afzal Chaudhary