How many sabres were captured?

[John Doe]

John

The three pilots who shot down IAF aircraft were content with having joined the elite club of fighter pilots with aerial kills. A month after the war, the PAF was able to line up 22 Mirages for all to see on the tarmac at Sargodha, while the 23rd Mirage was under maintenance in a hangar.[6] The impressive sight belied claims of any losses that had been incurred by the Mirage fleet during the war.

See, this is undeniable that there were 22 Mirages on that lineup. The oft-quoted "International Media " consists of ONE person: Fricker. And what does he write? That the 23 rd Mirage "was to be seen in the hangar". Note: he does not say "was seen". Surely that says that he did not actually see the last mystery plane!

Tufail bases his statement ( that you have quoted) on this Fricker article.

Clarification: I am only objecting to the blind parroting of "all mirages" and "international media are the witnesses" type of posts.

 

[SQ8]

Well.. the best way to conclude that mystery is to look at the serial numbers of all the Mirages in the picture... and corroborate that with Mirages that still flew after the war.
Another source can be Acdre sajjad haider.. he does maintain a site for himself.. why dont you post a question there.
He was OC 33 wing..
I posed my Question to AVM Saeed Ansari who has flown in 65 with B-57's... and was in a staff job during 71.
and his reply has been to the negative.. all mirages were accounted for.
The best person for this might even be our resident mirage pilot Muradk..

 

[John Doe]

I too thought along the same lines. I wrote to Jagan and Samir Chopra ( who are the co-authors of a terrific book), and I asked them this question. It's been a while since my questions, sadly I have not heard back from them.

Truth be told, Tufail is one to get his research right. So I have been agnostic in this matter as of now.

Please ask Mr. MuradK , he might have something new to add!

 

[Areesh]

@ Santro,

The occasion author mentioned is what I posted and explained to JD some where else, but he was more inquisitive about the white marks that appeared on the image....... waste of space if you ask me.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/TLCPrado/scan0001-6.jpg

Read under conflicting claims.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/scan0005-3.jpg?t=1277801953

Well you should be satisfied with the fact that the loudmouth like always is clutching at straws to prove something. Something which he himself don't know about.

28 Mirages, 24 Mirages, 23 Mirages, Kaiser Tufail, Fricker, Murad K, fake Mig 21 photo, captured, not captured. Waste of space truly.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

our men destroyed the aircrafts when it was sensed that Dacca would fall.

it is Pakistan that possess captured indian aircraft -- one which surrendered mid-flight and landed in our territory.

 

[happycanuck]

Interesting debate so who won. I think we all lost at the end. Pakistan lost more and keeps on loosing due to the fact leadership is made of selfish individuals whether military or elected. Let us for a change engage in a discussion about economic cooperation in the region. I know my POV is off the topic but let us a god's sake leave the past behind and learn from the mistake to make peaceful and prosperous future the generation to come after us.

 

[Shinigami]

our men destroyed the aircrafts when it was sensed that Dacca would fall.

most were shot down. why would you destroy something you can use until u r sure it is useless?

it is Pakistan that possess captured indian aircraft -- one which surrendered mid-flight and landed in our territory.

That captured aircraft was flown by a pilot who lost his way and was low on fuel. u r senior member, u should know all this

 

[MadDog]

Guys this is a neutral source which highlights the kills of various airforces of the world
since world war I. Here are the kills of PAF and IAF in 65 and 71

1971 PAF VICTORIES
Air Aces Homepage

1971 IAF VICTORIES
Air Aces Homepage

1965 PAF VICTORIES
Air Aces Homepage

1965 IAF VICTORIES
Air Aces Homepage

Hope this helps !!!!

 

[John Doe]

hey Mad Dog,

Thanks, a good post! I have already spotted a mistaken claim on the IAF victories though. For example, Nirmal Sekhon actually never shot down any PAF jets, though this list credits him with 2.

There will surely be other mistaken claims on either side.

---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 AM ----------

@ Windjammer:

I noticed you had nothing much to say when I called out as wrong your Afzal Choudhary claim of shooting a Gnat. I am sure that you know that he was making a false claim.

Sajjad Haider himself called your hero Afzal a liar! Now I know why you like Afzal so much

Look what else I found, right here on this forum. At least read the scanned page and reply to this:

As per air commodore sajjad haider , Wng. Cmdr. Afzal Choudhury came to him after the war was over and requested to be taken off command of the squadron. the rest of the pilots loathed him for some false claims. And he did not really fly much in combat except for a day where others were putting a good effort.. So the pilots were giving him a really hard time. Haider posted out chaudarhy and got a new CO for them.

 

[SQ8]

Good to know John that you have found the book...
It is sad.. that such events occurred..
Moreover the halwara episode has been brought to light and it sounds nothing less than a Shakespearean tragedy.

 

[John Doe]

Thanks. BTW, what are you referring to by the Halwara episode?

 

[Areesh]

Good to know John that you have found the book...
It is sad.. that such events occurred..
Moreover the halwara episode has been brought to light and it sounds nothing less than a Shakespearean tragedy.

Humm it was a big loss. Losing a patriot like Sarfraz Rafiqui is a sad thing in the whole story.

 

[Windjammer]

@ John Doe

And how many times did i mention Afzal's name except in the relevant post.
So Nosey Haider's Pathankot claims were false, yet here he rings your bell, how convenient or is it called hypocrisy..... in your case, nothing comes as a surprise.

 

[John Doe]

Sweety pie, what about Pathankot and when have I even mentioned it in my entire existence? Are you feeling especially allergic to facts and truth today?

By the way, you have not deleted your now disproved post about the disgraced Afzal Chaudhary shooting a Gnat down? Any special Windjammer reason to keep it alive?

So to sum up: In this thread, I have:

a] proved that all the Mirages were NOT on the lineup photo.

b] proved that NO Gnat was shot down over Boyra.

c] proved (for the second time) that the Mig-21 photo posted by you has no provenance.

d] that truth is not a virtue considered vaguely important by you.

For all further clarifications, call toll-free: 1-800-JDCares4Truth

 

[DARKY]

Good work John....
I still don't understand what difference that particular incident makes to the fact we see even today.... which clearly shows the reluctances of PAF or Unwillingness to fight back to the last pilot/plane...... they were Interested in keeping their planes in hardened shelters to save them from being shotdown to show in some damn parade after their loss in the war...... while half of the country was being ripped apart by enemy forces...... whats that show off worth ??