How many sabres were captured?

[Ganga]

And why else was IAF continuesly bombing the airfield for a full fortnight while constantly loosing aircraft to the ground fire witnessed by Foreign correspondence based in nearby Dacca Continental Hotel.
The so called tiny inferior Gnat had both home and numbers advantage in this encounter, in which the IAF loss is again not mentioned in the Indian version of the conflict.

Advantage of numbers.Sorry but you have got your facts wrong.There were 4 gnats which were scrambled and there were 4 sabres.3 were shot down .2 fell within India and one crashed in a lake in Bangladesh.The pilots were presented before the world media by Indian authorities.Gun camera footage of the encounter were published in newspapers worldwide.

 

[SQ8]

@ Myth Buster :

Care to upload the page which is 2 pages below this one?

You know the one: Where John Fricker says that he saw 22 and not 23 Mirages in the Lineup?
Hell, you can count them in the photo yourself, no?!?!?!

See what I have a problem with? These terms that get repeated constantly by blind fans, such as "All Mirages lined up" and "International Media"

@ Santro:

Firstly see above. Secondly IIRC I had read on Jagan's website where he and Sameer Chopra had given the serial nos. of the Mirages that were not talked about by the PAF. All I could find now was this from his page:

"Pakistan's 24 or 28 Mirage III's


At the End of the 1971 Bangladesh War, When it was time to sit back and assess scores, The Indian Air Force after evaluating the results throughout the war claimed among the PAF aircraft destroyed, Five of the PAF's Prize Mirage III Jets. Pakistan was quick to rebuff the claim and in a major PR exercise, arranged for a display of its Mirage III Fleet. It had received 24 Mirage III Interceptors from France. and it invited foreign journalists to one of its airbases where 23 of the Mirage III aircraft were displayed. the 24th aircraft supposedly lost on a training flight prior to the War. The Indian Claim of Five Mirage III's seemed ludicrous.

Then France let the cat out of the bag. It said it had delivered 28 Mirages not 24 as Pakistan claimed. so the Indian claim was not far off the mark."

Im not sure where the french let the cat out of the bag.. and through what source..
But there is a complete delivery schedule for the PAF mirages available in the new book.
And Im thinking even with Dassault.
As far as the serial numbers are concerned.. they too exist as a record.
Perhaps both Jagan and Sameer need to display their source for the claim from the french.
there were more Mirages delivered right after the 71 war.. confusion perhaps??
Fricker says he saw 22 mirages.. while the PAF had 23.. perhaps one was under maintenance??
Again.. I trust AC tufial a little more than Sameer or jagan for a very neutral reason. His research has been very very unbiased. To further verify that we have testimonies from other PAF pilots that have whittled down all the bogus claims by the PAF.. and the IAF as well.
One of those pilots is a close relative of mine... and not somebody who makes ludicrous claims..such as the PAF did regarding M.M Alam's performance.
In the end... I still believe the mirages survived unscathed...


There were multiple claims on Mirages.. never confirmed..
Just as some senior PAF pilots made up stories on dogfighting with multiple bogies.. when nothing was in the Area. It is possible IAF pilots may have seen mirages.. even taken a few potshots.. but like similar claims by the PAF about shooting down a few extra Su-7's.. maybe the prey outsmarted the hunter and lived to fly another day.

 

[Ganga]

Captured? Do you even know the meaning of Capture?
Dictionary: Take into one's possession or control by force
These sabers were left by Pakistanis on their own so how exactly were they captured? Can you play the game capture the flag without any opponents?
Indians cant live without believing in myths.

My question satisfies your definition of captured.Pakistan did not leave those jets behind.They were still there when the Indians came and took possession by force .

 

[Areesh]

According to Kaiser Tufail:

Location of bases at Mianwali, Murid, Peshawar, Risalewala, Rafiqui and Sargodha served the air defence requirements over the battle areas reasonably well and provided sufficient redundancy. Day interceptors in the northern sector included 48 F-6, 32 F-86E, 32 F-86F and 23 Mirage IIIE/R/D.

Aeronaut


Obviously it would be good if that guy Jagan and the other guy can show us the source about the cat and the bag story.

 

[Ganga]

if you throw what was it 9 IAF squadrons against 1 PAF squadron, u can maintain advantage.!

Blame the planners in the PAF for this.No one asked them to position only one squadron there. Always remember that the enemy will hit you hard where it hurts the most.

 

[SQ8]

Advantage of numbers.Sorry but you have got your facts wrong.There were 4 gnats which were scrambled and there were 4 sabres.3 were shot down .2 fell within India and one crashed in a lake in Bangladesh.The pilots were presented before the world media by Indian authorities.Gun camera footage of the encounter were published in newspapers worldwide.

The Gnat claims are a little exaggerated.. but in any case.. it was not an inferior aircraft. And was considered a better adversary than the hunter precisely because it was tiny. A gnat could manage a sneak attack better than any other aircraft.. its small profile made it very difficult to track.

 

[Ganga]

The Gnat claims are a little exaggerated.. but in any case.. it was not an inferior aircraft. And was considered a better adversary than the hunter precisely because it was tiny. A gnat could manage a sneak attack better than any other aircraft.. its small profile made it very difficult to track.

How can they be exaggerated when you have the pilots of the downed jets presented before the world media?yes the small size made it very agile but the guns which it carried were way inferior than those carried by the sabres.

 

[John Doe]

@ Santro:

I am looking but here is something to begin with, about the 28 Mirages:

http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf

See the foot-notes 10, 11, 25 and 35.

 

[Windjammer]

How can they be exaggerated when you have the pilots of the downed jets presented before the world media?yes the small size made it very agile but the guns which it carried were way inferior than those carried by the sabres.

The Indian authorities were quick to present the PAF pilots before the media, yet didn't have the courage to admit to loosing a Gnat during this encounter .

 

[fatman17]

Blame the planners in the PAF for this.No one asked them to position only one squadron there. Always remember that the enemy will hit you hard where it hurts the most.

i was just replying to the poster not getting into un-ncessary arguments about events past!

 

[DarK-LorD]

Combat Aircraft Losses
Description Pakistan
Air to Air 19 19
Ground Fire 15 35
On Ground 29 2
Total 63 56
* Combat aircraft and bomber losses only. Transporters and Recce PAF aircraft shot down or destroyed on the ground not included.

1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West

 

[John Doe]

The Indian authorities were quick to present the PAF pilots before the media, yet didn't have the courage to admit to loosing a Gnat during this encounter .

Judging by your track record, I am wasting my time asking you for things such as who from the IAF got shot down and by whom? I mean, has any PAF pilot actually claimed a shoot-down at Boyra?

 

[Windjammer]

Judging by your track record, I am wasting my time asking you for things such as who from the IAF got shot down and by whom? I mean, has any PAF pilot actually claimed a shoot-down at Boyra?

Albeit, you are not worth a reply but just to put your bewildered mind to rest. The Gnat was obviously shot down over Indian territory , hence it's difficult to establish Indian pilot's identity, unless the Indian authorities come clean, however, the victor was Wing Commander Afzal Chaudhary.

The PAF went into action on 19 November to impede this thrust and flew several missions against Indian guns and troops. It flew over 100 sorties to assist Pak Army units. It was not till 22 November that PAF met any opposition.

At 1518 hours, a flight of 3 F-86s was called out with guns and rockets to the Chaughacha area. Although after 3 attacks the Sabres were running low on fuel, the formation leader, Wing Commander Afzal Chaudhry carried out a fourth attack. During this dive he heard his No. 2 calling out that 2 Gnats were behind him. Chaudhry broke into the Gnats and shot one of them down. Soon thereafter, his wingman again called to say that 2 more Gnats were now in pursuit. Chaudhry ordered a disengagement but when he looked back he could not spot his wingman and saw his No. 3, Flight Lieutenant Pervez Mehdi, ejecting after being hit by the enemy fighters. Both his No. 3 and his wingman Flying Officer Khalil, had been shot down over Pakistani territory but were transported to India after being taken prisoner by the Mukti Bahini.

 

[SQ8]

@ Santro:

I am looking but here is something to begin with, about the 28 Mirages:

http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf

See the foot-notes 10, 11, 25 and 35.

John.. 10, 11 ,25 and 35 give nothing as to what dassault source it was.. only links to other Indian books.
Also the sort of language used in the study makes it very clear that it was written in a very biased state.
What other reason would the author give credibility treason.. and the triumph of democracy over dictatorship in a study on kills.
So Im going to disregard this report.

 

[John Doe]

the victor was Wing Commander Afzal Chaudhary.

Is victory defined by you as being badly shot and damaged and limping back to your home base?!?!? Unbelievable , the guy who barely made it home is the victor? Have you taken all leave of common sense?

The 4 Indian Gnat pilots were Flt Lt Roy Andrew Massey, Fg Offr SF Soarez, Flt Lt MA Ganapathy and Fg Offr D Lazarus.

They all made it home, intact and on their own steam. Here is what these four heros were guilty of:

The control tower :'We have four Gnats beating up the airfield and Calcutta at low level for the past ten minutes!'. The victorious Gnat pilots have returned from the sortie and proceeded to do a royal lowlevel beatup of Calcutta and the environs. The Bengali populace could only glance up in curiosity and amusement at the continous roar of the Orpheous engines as the Gnats made several passes over the city before landing back at Dum Dum as they started nearing the end of thier fuel reserves."

A field day for the Church of India as you can tell from the names, no doubt