How India secretly armed Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance

[Placemat]

The truth always comes out, because the Hindutva have said so.

Indians/Hindustan has no place outside of the area called Hindustan. That's where the name comes from, the Hindus. They belong outside Muslim lands, which run up to the boundary, i.e. Sirhind.

None of the people, tribes, geography has anything to do with India, and historically never has beyond Hindustva fantasies. Unfortunately, in the end, it does come down to race, and none of the people beyond that point historically had any connection to India, but still remain directly connected to each other.

Simply put, we want that land, regardless of who lives there and has always lived there because the Hindutva say so. Interestingly, to get around the point I just mentioned, the Hindutva have even included Afghanistan in that equation, simply because they can't separate Pakistan from Afghanistan.

All because you won't stay behind the historical boundary.

Ok

 

[PaulSimon]

When the Americans stupidly invaded Afghanistan the Indians realized an opportunity to cement their position on the world stage as a superpower.

The Indians hatched a plan that would kill two birds with one stone. They tried to encircle Pakistan while simultaneously undermining Chinese influence in central and western Asia. They first supported Anti-Taliban forces inside Afghanistan while propagandizing anti-Pakistan sentiment. They then gave the Iranis a shoulder to cry with the promise to build the Chabhar port and to buy its cheap oil. Meanwhile, the Indians directly supported cross-border terrorism and anti-government elements from Afganistan and Iran inside Pakistan.

The cherry on the cake was Modi's election and the BJP's agenda being directly supported by the youth within India. Modi had the gall to ramp this plan up and gave Hindus a reason to be proud again. In Pakistan, PPP and the sharifs were elected and all was going to plan. Pakistan would be broken into 4 parts, China would be contained to the straights of malacia and India would dominate trade within Central Asia. The dream of supapowa 2020 would finally be realized and India would become a nation of cows once again.

Fortunately for the world, Two things happened. First, the Americans elected their new Meshiac (trump) with the help of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby. Second, the Taliban actually started to win and the false death of Osama gave trump an out.

Now coming to your point, You say Indians don't need to or want to win this proxy war but the Indian posture contradicts your point of view. First off, India has started to scale back its relations with Iran. This is a direct slight to her aspirations to dominate trade with Central Asia. Trade has been stopped and chabhar's funding has been downgraded. By doing this, India has made it clear that it will always side with Israel and evangelicals within the United States.

The Americans have realized that the National Afghan Army is useless. Trump's largemouth has made his voters embarrassed to elect him and he desperately needs a talking point for his next term. He first tried to get India to post some Vedic soldiers within Afghanistan but the Hindus know better. The days of Ashoka are long gone and while barking very loud, the Hindus don't have enough muscle to outdo the Coalition of the willing. So Trump and the US called on an old friend, Pakistan to once again get it out of a bad predicament. Trump also humiliated India by making her sit at the kiddy table while the parents spoke about more sophisticated things.

So now what does a psychopath do when she gets slighted? She goes on a spree of murder, rape, and tyranny.
Indian intelligence and BJP party members have made it crystal clear that after the Americans pull out of Afghanistan they are afraid of jihad inside Kashmir. So like a scared cat, the Indians have decided to scratch preemptively instead of waiting for things to happen.

War is always the last option and the Indian establishment has no other choice. Given what India is doing in recent times, you can see that India sees war as a viable option. She failed miserably in asymmetric warfare. So now she wants to try her hand in a real war. That is the conclusion. The war is not going on and on, it is coming to its rightful conclusion.

Your second point that the Pakistani economy was bled with proxy warfare from the Indians is again false. Indians need to realize that a large portion of the Pakistani economy is unaccounted for. Pakistan's government and Bureaucracy mismanage taxes and are horrendously corrupt. Pakistani politicians have a bad habit of directly siphoning monies into personal offshore accounts while borrowing from the IMF to run the affairs of laypeople.

Lol, I like the way you have summed things so simply. But fortunately, the events on the ground are different from your preception. The Indian populace is gullible and is purposefully kept stupid via religion and superstition. The once-mighty educated Hindu that elected soft-spoken backstabbing educated people has now resorted to being lead by loud, bear-hugging chia walas.

Firstly, US will not leave Afghanistan. US presence in Afghanistan is very important to keep an eye on Russia and China.

US wants a deal from Pakistan/Taliban to continue its presence.

In return, US was willing to give Pakistan/Taliban the control of Afghanistan but Pakistan also wanted Kashmir on the table.

US is willing to give the Kashmir valley to Pakistan if Pakistan will go into a tight alliance with the US. In return Pakistan is also asking US to reciprocate. That is, US has to give up India while Pakistan will give up China.

The prospect of the deal between US and Pakistan/Taliban has sent chills down the spine of the Indian establishment who hurriedly scrapped Article 370 to secure the Kashmir Valley.

Playing a role in Afghanistan is least of India's worries at this time.

But once the deal is done, India is bound to lose Kashmir valley with Pakistan/Taliban putting military pressure on India while US, West and Islamic World will put its diplomatic weight behind Pakistan/Taliban.

Pakistan/Taliban will not have to worry about the US or the West at all.

Once US puts its weight behind Pakistan/Taliban taking over Kashmir, Europe and Arab world will just follow the US lead.

Only Russia will come to India's rescue but it will not be enough as Russian economy is not in a good shape.

China is the wildcard here. They may lend tacit support to India by staying neutral in the war between India and Pakistan/Taliban, If India settles Sino-Indian boundary dispute in China's favor.

 

[Placemat]

Is it really worth my while responding to this?

Put simply, kashmiri men are unable to fight against your occupying forces for fear of what the rapist security forces will do to their womenfolk if they are arrested or killed in action. Your security forces use rape as an effective weapon.

You also use human shields, conduct fake encounters and kidnappings, arrest intellectuals to avert the risk of organised protest and response by academics and indulge in routine torture.

This is all in Kashmir so please don't start with the "dilution" rhetoric.

The best part is, after locking up all the rich, literate, educated, business owning and academic Kashmiris, you claim the abrogation will "improve the lives and development of Kashmiris"

You couldn't make it up honestly! So ridiculously hilarious.

The only rape happened as to Kashmiri Pandit women by Muslim.

These guys have been causing trouble in Kashmir for all these years and milking the system to the detriment of other kashmiris bith muslims and pandits. They are mostly separatists and deserve to be hanged. It's better they are in luck up for a few years than many people getting killed.

You ought to dilute whatever you're drinking.

We don't want Kashmir to end up like other states in Hindustan. This isn't "dilution" but is evidence based analysis.

Ok

 

[M.Bison]

@PaulSimon

Firstly, US will not leave Afghanistan. US presence in Afghanistan is very important to keep an eye on Russia and China.

US wants a deal from Pakistan/Taliban to continue its presence.

In return, US was willing to give Pakistan/Taliban the control of Afghanistan but Pakistan also wanted Kashmir on the table.

US is willing to give the Kashmir valley to Pakistan if Pakistan will go into a tight alliance with the US. In return Pakistan is also asking US to reciprocate. That is, US has to give up India while Pakistan will give up China.

You made quite a few outlandish points here so let me go through them with you.

1) Americans will not have a presence within Afghanistan. They will leave behind ISIS and continue to do intelligence operations within portions of Afghanistan that are not under Taliban control.
2) Kashmir valley will not be given to Pakistan by the US because the US has no control over it. There will be a war between India and Pakistan. India will be the aggressor.
3) Pakistani Army and the people who control Pakistan will never ever leave China or CPEC because of its economy. If CPEC becomes successful it will solidify the establishment within Pakistani for Decades. It will triple the power of the military within Pakistan and make Paksitan a world player. So Pakistan will always side with the Chinese no matter what the circumstance is.

The prospect of the deal between US and Pakistan/Taliban has sent chills down the spine of the Indian establishment who hurriedly scrapped Article 370 to secure the Kashmir Valley.

Playing a role in Afghanistan is least of India's worries at this time.

But once the deal is done, India is bound to lose Kashmir valley with Pakistan/Taliban putting military pressure on India while US, West and Islamic World will put its diplomatic weight behind Pakistan/Taliban.

Pakistan/Taliban will not have to worry about the US or the West at all.

Once US puts its weight behind Pakistan/Taliban taking over Kashmir, Europe and Arab world will just follow the US lead.

Only Russia will come to India's rescue but it will not be enough as Russian economy is not in a good shape.

China is the wildcard here. They may lend tacit support to India by staying neutral in the war between India and Pakistan/Taliban, If India settles Sino-Indian boundary dispute in China's favor.

Chinese are not going to settle with Indians against Pakistan because China has more to lose if it decides to side with Indians. China has put a lot of weight behind CPEC because it needs stable logistics for energy. Right now only Azad Kashmir provides that to china.

@Jyotish

@M.Bison



This could be true.
But maybe India does not want to invest in Chabahar port, because there is not much going through that port.
It is not economically viable. I do not think that it has anything to do with Israel or evangelicals within the U.S.

The whole point is that it is not economically viable because India was unsuccessful within Afghanistan.
Secondly in the past India did not capitulate to the pressures of the Americans or Israelis when it came to Irani Oil exports but recently India has decided to downgrade her relations with Iran.

But are saying that Pakistan needs to do the work, that India would not want to do? How is that a win for Pakistan and a loss for India?

No not at all, I don't think Pakistan will Post troops within Afghanistan because it doesn't need to. Pakistan is on the side of the winning team.

It could be true that India has revoked Article 370 in order to solidy their presence in Kashmir and to have a stronger 'buffer' for anything that might 'spillover' from Afghanistan when the U.S. leaves.

But I think it is more a defensive move than a preparation for a real war.

It is true that a large portion of the Pakistani economy is unaccounted for.
Yet, when war occures, higher government spending, to fund this war, increases inflation, which results in higher cost of living, doing business, borrowing money etc. It impacts every aspect of the economy, whether this is accounted or unaccounted for.

Unfortunately, Pakistan does not have the manpower to fight India in a conventional long-term battle. This upcoming war will first become nuclear then it will be a war of attrition and I believe Pakistan the economy, the expertise, and the will to fight that type of war.

It is true that the politicians from the Indian National Congress are / were more soft-spoken and cunning than the politicians from the Bharatiya Janata Party. The INC also had a better way of dealing with the foreign affairs of India. They did not however had a better way of dealing with the internal affairs of India with regards to the majority of Indians: the Hindus. Pseudo-secularism and minority appeasement were two policies which the INC practiced that alienated many Hindus from their party. An example are the places of worship, where those of Hindus are controlled by the government and do not get any funding, while those of non-Hindus are not controlled and do get funding. This lack of true secularism led to the creation and rise of political parties such as the BJP who claim to fight for Hindus. And thus many Hindus voted for the BJP. If the INC had not practiced pseudo-secularism and minority appeasement, the BJP would not have existed or would be a minor party of no importance.

BJP was here before the INC. Don't forget that the Hindu right is the one that assassinated Gandhi. This ideology did not spring up overnight and had to be organized even before India was an actual idea.

You are right, India cannot remain a pseudo-secular nation. The ruse of secularism kept Indians united under one flag but all that is changing. As the radicals get into power and the establishment becomes more neurotic minorities will start to feel disenfranchised. It is actually a blessing in disguise because as the Hindu right rises in power, India will go deeper and deeper into turmoil. Sadly the Hindu right is just as corrupt as the secularist if not more so but they galvanize the Hindus against the Muslims. This hate-mongering will only last for so long until the populace wakes up.

 

[PaulSimon]

You made quite a few outlandish points here so let me go through them with you.

1) Americans will not have a presence within Afghanistan. They will leave behind ISIS and continue to do intelligence operations within portions of Afghanistan that are not under Taliban control.
2) Kashmir valley will not be given to Pakistan by the US because the US has no control over it. There will be a war between India and Pakistan. India will be the aggressor.
3) Pakistani Army and the people who control Pakistan will never ever leave China or CPEC because of its economy. If CPEC becomes successful it will solidify the establishment within Pakistani for Decades. It will triple the power of the military within Pakistan and make Paksitan a world player. So Pakistan will always side with the Chinese no matter what the circumstance is.






Chinese are not going to settle with Indians against Pakistan because China has more to lose if it decides to side with Indians. China has put a lot of weight behind CPEC because it needs stable logistics for energy. Right now only Azad Kashmir provides that to china.

CPEC has been on life support since Pakistan made a deal with the IMF. It would be dead the day US & Pakistan/Taliban make a deal.

I never said China will support India against Pakistan rather China may choose to stay neutral by not getting into the war between India and Pakistan/Taliban as CPEC would have already been dead by that time (no more incentive for China). China would trying to extract a deal from India for staying neutral.

Having Pakistan/Taliban controlling both Afghanistan & Kashmir means US could confront China through both Afghanistan and Kashmir.

 

[SingHee]

There was this thing called the great game.

This is all just a continuation, in fact it never really completely stopped, and India wants to play the part of the British Empire, with all the other players still present and following similar tactics. The only difference is that China has now decided to throw its interests into the mix, as well as its historical silk route theory, to accelerate things, and Afghanistan and Pakistan can once again add some strength to the centre whilst being aided by the Chinese.

It's pretty intriguing, really, because even Muhammad Ali Jinnah made a point of mentioning something very similar when you consider the geopolitical potential of the central plains of Eurasia, and how Pakistan sits at the exact point where all trade routes meet.

Here's an interesting write up about this very same subject
https://eurasiafuture.com/2019/02/14/pakistan-the-global-pivot-state/

I don't always agree with the author of the above linked article, but it does make some interesting observations.

 

[M.Bison]

CPEC has been on life support since Pakistan made a deal with the IMF. It would be dead the day US & Pakistan/Taliban make a deal.

I never said China will support India against Pakistan rather China may choose to stay neutral by not getting into the war between India and Pakistan/Taliban as CPEC would have already been dead by that time (no more incentive for China). China would trying to extract a deal from India for staying neutral.

Having both Pakistan/Taliban controlling both Afghanistan & Kashmir means US could confront China through both Afghanistan and Kashmir.

There is no deal with Pakistan its a deal between the Taliban and the United States.

The CPEC is part of a larger initiative called the BRI and the BRI is still alive and kicking. Don't listen to the shitty liberals within Pakistan or the crazy Indian journals on the BJP payroll.

The only way I foresee Western United nations led influence within Kashmir is if there is danger of nuclear war between Pakistan and Indian. Then the united states might jump in and make Kashmir a UN-administered territory and ask both India and Pakistan to give up nuclear weapons for peace. But here you are underestimating a lot of nations while overestimating the Americans and the west.

 

[PaulSimon]

There is no deal with Pakistan its a deal between the Taliban and the United States.

The CPEC is part of a larger initiative called the BRI and the BRI is still alive and kicking. Don't listen to the shitty liberals within Pakistan or the crazy Indian journals on the BJP payroll.

The only way I foresee Western United nations led influence within Kashmir is if there is danger of nuclear war between Pakistan and Indian. Then the united states might jump in and make Kashmir a UN-administered territory and ask both India and Pakistan to give up nuclear weapons for peace. But here you are underestimating a lot of nations while overestimating the Americans and the west.

Taliban and the US will never make a deal without Pakistan. That would be a recipe for disaster.

 

[PakSword]

True. India will surmount Kashmir problem. The people will never integrate with India but will keep simmering like this for the foreseeable future as long as Pakistan is supporting the terrorism in the valley. I think the govt now wants to take the battle to the Pakistani side by making it expensive for Pak. Thats why the govt will soon shift to retaking PoJak. The Pak gocvt is clearly rattled judging by the incoherent rhetoric coming from their PM , who is a direct placement of the Pak Army. Some tough days ahead, but better now than never.

Tu Australia nahi gaya abb Tak?

 

[Placemat]

Tu Australia nahi gaya abb Tak?

Waiting for grant year... I submitted in Mar. January chaloo hai.hopefully in 2 or 3 m.

 

[BATMAN]

It wasn't India alone, Russia and Iran were also part of the union.
India always used the leverage of Iran to spread violence and killings in region.,

 

[Fawadqasim1]

@M.Bison

But who says that India wants to win a (proxy) war with Pakistan in Afghanistan?

If a (proxy) war is won or lost, than that is it. Done. End of story.

If a (proxy) war goes go on and on, you are able to drain the enemy (financially) and keep them on their toes.

It won't not for long now

When the Americans stupidly invaded Afghanistan the Indians realized an opportunity to cement their position on the world stage as a superpower.

The Indians hatched a plan that would kill two birds with one stone. They tried to encircle Pakistan while simultaneously undermining Chinese influence in central and western Asia. They first supported Anti-Taliban forces inside Afghanistan while propagandizing anti-Pakistan sentiment. They then gave the Iranis a shoulder to cry with the promise to build the Chabhar port and to buy its cheap oil. Meanwhile, the Indians directly supported cross-border terrorism and anti-government elements from Afganistan and Iran inside Pakistan.

The cherry on the cake was Modi's election and the BJP's agenda being directly supported by the youth within India. Modi had the gall to ramp this plan up and gave Hindus a reason to be proud again. In Pakistan, PPP and the sharifs were elected and all was going to plan. Pakistan would be broken into 4 parts, China would be contained to the straights of malacia and India would dominate trade within Central Asia. The dream of supapowa 2020 would finally be realized and India would become a nation of cows once again.

Fortunately for the world, Two things happened. First, the Americans elected their new Meshiac (trump) with the help of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby. Second, the Taliban actually started to win and the false death of Osama gave trump an out.

Now coming to your point, You say Indians don't need to or want to win this proxy war but the Indian posture contradicts your point of view. First off, India has started to scale back its relations with Iran. This is a direct slight to her aspirations to dominate trade with Central Asia. Trade has been stopped and chabhar's funding has been downgraded. By doing this, India has made it clear that it will always side with Israel and evangelicals within the United States.

The Americans have realized that the National Afghan Army is useless. Trump's largemouth has made his voters embarrassed to elect him and he desperately needs a talking point for his next term. He first tried to get India to post some Vedic soldiers within Afghanistan but the Hindus know better. The days of Ashoka are long gone and while barking very loud, the Hindus don't have enough muscle to outdo the Coalition of the willing. So Trump and the US called on an old friend, Pakistan to once again get it out of a bad predicament. Trump also humiliated India by making her sit at the kiddy table while the parents spoke about more sophisticated things.

So now what does a psychopath do when she gets slighted? She goes on a spree of murder, rape, and tyranny.
Indian intelligence and BJP party members have made it crystal clear that after the Americans pull out of Afghanistan they are afraid of jihad inside Kashmir. So like a scared cat, the Indians have decided to scratch preemptively instead of waiting for things to happen.

War is always the last option and the Indian establishment has no other choice. Given what India is doing in recent times, you can see that India sees war as a viable option. She failed miserably in asymmetric warfare. So now she wants to try her hand in a real war. That is the conclusion. The war is not going on and on, it is coming to its rightful conclusion.

Your second point that the Pakistani economy was bled with proxy warfare from the Indians is again false. Indians need to realize that a large portion of the Pakistani economy is unaccounted for. Pakistan's government and Bureaucracy mismanage taxes and are horrendously corrupt. Pakistani politicians have a bad habit of directly siphoning monies into personal offshore accounts while borrowing from the IMF to run the affairs of laypeople.

Lol, I like the way you have summed things so simply. But fortunately, the events on the ground are different from your preception. The Indian populace is gullible and is purposefully kept stupid via religion and superstition. The once-mighty educated Hindu that elected soft-spoken backstabbing educated people has now resorted to being lead by loud, bear-hugging chia walas.

excellently put sir

 

[Nein]

The only rape happened as to Kashmiri Pandit women by Muslim.

These guys have been causing trouble in Kashmir for all these years and milking the system to the detriment of other kashmiris bith muslims and pandits. They are mostly separatists and deserve to be hanged. It's better they are in luck up for a few years than many people getting killed.


Ok

Its well known what Hindus did to Kashmiri Muslim women nowadays they are fetishing all over it again when Kashmir lost its status.

 

[Kailash Kumar]

@PaulSimon

Firstly, US will not leave Afghanistan. US presence in Afghanistan is very important to keep an eye on Russia and China.

US wants a deal from Pakistan/Taliban to continue its presence.

In return, US is willing to give Pakistan/Taliban control of Afghanistan but Pakistan also wanted Kashmir on the table.

US is willing to give the Kashmir valley to Pakistan if Pakistan will go into a tight alliance with the US. In return Pakistan is also asking US to reciprocate. That is US has to give up India while Pakistan will give up China.

Once the deal is done, India is bound to lose Kashmir valley with Pakistan/Taliban putting military pressure on India while US, West and Islamic World will put its diplomatic weight behind Pakistan/Taliban.

Pakistan/Taliban will not have to worry about US or the West at all.

Russia will support India but it will not matter much other than providing a veto in UNSC.

If the U.S. would give up India, how will they counter China?
By having two military bases in Afghanistan?
That is not enough.
The U.S. knows that to counter China, they need India as an ally in the region.
They will not give India up for Pakistan and two military bases in Afghanistan.

At this time India's main concern is how to secure Kashmir from falling to Pakistan/Taliban. Afghanistan is least of India's worries.

@Jyotish

In order to stop Kashmir from falling into the hands of Pakistan / Taliban, it is important for India to have an (indirect) presence in Afghanistan. Proxies could keep the Taliban and Pakistan busy and thereby prevent them from focusing on Kashmir.

@Longhorn

Which then risks the enemy taking that proxy war where you wouldn't want it.
Always be careful what you wish for.

Well, I am not wishing for anything actually.
I was more talking in general.

But where do you think Pakistan would take that proxy war?
Khalistan, Naxalites, North East India, Dravidistan?
They all seem to be either dead movements or under control by the Indian government.

@M.Bison

@Jyotish
The whole point is that it is not economically viable because India was unsuccessful within Afghanistan.
Secondly in the past India did not capitulate to the pressures of the Americans or Israelis when it came to Irani Oil exports but recently India has decided to downgrade her relations with Iran.

Ok.

No not at all, I don't think Pakistan will Post troops within Afghanistan because it doesn't need to. Pakistan is on the side of the winning team.

Well, yes, Pakistan is on the side of the Taliban. But how much control does Pakistan have on the Taliban?
The Taliban is not as isolated as they used to be. They have foreign relations with Russia, Iran, Uzbekistan and China and are therefore less reliant on Pakistan.

Iran is also the biggest trading partner of Afghanistan, surpassing Pakistan.
They might need Iran more than Pakistan.

Unfortunately, Pakistan does not have the manpower to fight India in a conventional long-term battle. This upcoming war will first become nuclear then it will be a war of attrition and I believe Pakistan the economy, the expertise, and the will to fight that type of war.

I do not think that either the India, Pakistan or the international community think lightly of the use of nuclear weapons as many members of this forum do. They will be more careful and less impulsive than PDF members.

BJP was here before the INC. Don't forget that the Hindu right is the one that assassinated Gandhi. This ideology did not spring up overnight and had to be organized even before India was an actual idea.

You are right, India cannot remain a pseudo-secular nation. The ruse of secularism kept Indians united under one flag but all that is changing. As the radicals get into power and the establishment becomes more neurotic minorities will start to feel disenfranchised. It is actually a blessing in disguise because as the Hindu right rises in power, India will go deeper and deeper into turmoil. Sadly the Hindu right is just as corrupt as the secularist if not more so but they galvanize the Hindus against the Muslims. This hate-mongering will only last for so long until the populace wakes up.

That is not correct.

The BJP was founded in 1980. The party was a successor of the Janata Party (founded in 1977) which itself was a successor of the Bharatiya Jana Sangh, which was founded in 1951.
The Indian National Congress was founded in 1885.
So, the INC was here before the BJP and their precursors.
And if you meant the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), then that organisation was founded in 1925.
So, the INC also existed before the RSS.

But I agree with the rest of what you said.
If the BJP cares for India they should work on uniting and not dividing India.
Minority appeasement is wrong and not secular, but majority (Hindu) appeasement is also wrong and not secular.
No appeasement and real secularism is the only option.

@Fawadqasim1

It won't not for long now

I do not fully understand what you are saying.
Could you rewrite your sentence?

 

[Placemat]

Its well known what Hindus did to Kashmiri Muslim women nowadays they are fetishing all over it again when Kashmir lost its status.

Year just leave it. There are losers who do talk like that but that's not nice.