How India moved on from Ayodhya

[Spring Onion]

Not another Ayodhya thread!!!

Its the fact you want to avoid

 

[MilSpec]

Its the fact you want to avoid

Some wise member here is once advised me that each country here should stay away from inciting alienation of minorities.

 

[Iggy]

Its the fact you want to avoid

The fact is that there is nothing else to discuss.. All we are doing is going in circles.. First you talk about evil Hindus, then we talk about Islamic terrorism, then you talk about untouchables, then we talk about Ahmedis, then you talk about dalits, then we talk about Baluchis, then you talk about Maoists, we talk about TTP.. Then both side will go to what ever things coming in to mind.. These things go round and round..


And most importantly, Ayodhya is an internal matter of India, discussion which is banned in PDF..

 

[Spring Onion]

The fact is that there is nothing else to discuss.. All we are doing is going in circles.. First you talk about evil Hindus, then we talk about Islamic terrorism, then you talk about untouchables, then we talk about Ahmedis, then you talk about dalits, then we talk about Baluchis, then you talk about Maoists, we talk about TTP.. Then both side will go to what ever things coming in to mind.. These things go round and round..


And most importantly, Ayodhya is an internal matter of India, discussion which is banned in PDF..

Remembering to forget



While Mumbai mourns Bal Thackeray, there is a veil over the violence he was accused of perpetrating after the Babri Masjid demolition, with justice eluding many of its victims

In “Night and Fog” (1955), Alain Resnais’ powerful testament to Nazi brutality, the camera pans over the chilling remnants of concentration camps — rows of curved concrete pillars with barbed wire, empty gas chambers and hospitals, and the barbaric shower rooms where Jews were gassed to death. There is no such detritus of the violence in Mumbai in 1992-93. While there is a clamour for a statue to the late Shiv Sena leader Bal Thackeray, indicted by the Srikrishna Commission for his role in the riots after the Babri Masjid demolition on December 6, 1992, there are no memorials to the over 900 people who were killed and many more who went missing. While justice for survivors has been delayed and denied, some are still fighting for close to 20 years with a system that is unyielding. The riots divided the city, hardening stereotypes, creating more ghettos and putting a question mark forever on Mumbai’s cosmopolitan veneer.


Nearly 20 years after her son was killed, Akhtari Tahir Hasan Wagle gave an account of his death to a senior police officer, the third to investigate the case of her son. She told him the same things that she had repeated a hundred times to journalists and others who cared to listen. “My husband was not at home that day. It was January 10, 1993, around 11 a.m. We heard the police entering the narrow lane to the chawl and closed all our doors and windows. They were going into houses and dragging all the men out but they kicked the doors open and I saw my son Shahnawaz being taken away.”

A peon’s plight

The police ignored her pleas that Shahnawaz, 16, was a student and took him down two floors. “My daughter Yasmin was standing at the window when she suddenly shouted and said ‘Shanu is dead, they’ve shot him.’ We both ran down and asked the police what had happened. I asked for my son. ‘Give him back to me,’ I said. Instead they put him in a van and threatened to beat us if we didn’t stay back,” laments Ms Wagle.


That justice for riot survivors has been too little, and often non-existent is exemplified in the case of Farooq Mapkar, whose case against the police officers who fired inside Hari Masjid is still dragging on with the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) submitting a closure report in December 2011. The next date for the hearing is December 20. “Don’t ask me how much time and money I have spent for the last 20 years on my case,” says Mapkar, 45, a peon in a cooperative bank. He fought long and hard with a reluctant State government which even went to the Supreme Court to scotch a CBI investigation in the Hari Masjid firing case where police randomly fired inside the prayer hall on January 10, 1993 killing six in all. Mapkar, who was shot in the back, was in jail for 15 days before getting bail and having the bullet removed. After the Bombay High Court ordered a CBI inquiry in 2008, a First Information Report was registered against then sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse and others who were alleged to have fired in Hari Masjid.

Chasing compensation

While the State set up a designated court under the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act (TADA) court to try the cases of the serial blasts of March 12, 1993 — which resulted in 100 convictions in 2007 — the riot victims had nowhere to seek justice. Instead the police closed 1,371 of the 2,267 cases. Of the 1,371, 112 cases were reinvestigated. In eight cases, fresh charge sheets were filed, according to the Maharashtra government’s affidavit to the Supreme Court in January 2008. Of the 31 policemen indicted by the Srikrishna Commission, 10 were punished after departmental inquiries, 11 were found not guilty and one died. Cases on the implementation of the commission’s report are still pending in the Supreme Court.


Victims have had to face the trauma of chasing compensation for missing persons or for a paltry Rs.5,000 for their destroyed homes or workplaces. Women like Hazra Bi cannot hope to get justice for the brutal murder of her husband and son and Mukim Sheikh, whose father was killed in the riots, did not even bother to testify before the Srikrishna Commission. Mumbai’s fabric of togetherness was ripped apart like never before in the post-Babri Masjid demolition violence. New ghettoes sprung up inside and even outside the city, like Mumbra and parts of Mira Road in Thane which ironically were dubbed terror hotbeds by the police.

Only one Shiv Sena politician, the late Madhukar Sarpotdar, was convicted for hate speech in July 2008 and handed out a year’s simple imprisonment. Of the eight cases filed in 1993 against Bal Thackeray for his articles in Saamna, four were withdrawn from the Dadar court. Of the remaining in two cases, charge sheets were filed after the stipulated time period and two were closed for lack of evidence, according to information using the Right to Information (RTI) Act. Of the nearly 20 cases in all against Thackeray for hate speech and other sections of the Indian Penal Code, most are closed or the government has not given permission for his arrest.
Mumbai chugs along. No one will notice Rashida Kotawala as she sits at her street side stall repairing bags in Vile Parle. Or Sudarshan Bane who ekes out a living as a driver and does odd jobs. Bane’s parents were burnt to death in Gandhi Chawl in Jogeshwari, and his sister Naina escaped with severe burns. The Gandhi chawl incident was used by the Shiv Sena to wreak “revenge for Hindu deaths,” sparking off the bloody second phase of the Mumbai riots in January 1993. The Bane family, the “face of the riots” then, is struggling to survive now. While Mumbai mourns Bal Thackeray, there is a veil over the violence he was accused of perpetrating after the Babri Masjid demolition.

The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : Remembering to forget

 

[Koovie]

Looking at PDF & other social net working sites and the ground realities of India, one won't agree with the above statement. I say internet indians are a very good representation of Indian popular psyche. They have an allergy to specially muslims and Islam which is being aggravated by their state backed hindu nationalism. They say hinduism/paganism is not a religion but a culture of the subcontient which even muslim should follow. They call muslims invaders and give insulting epithets to muslim scholars and leaders/kings. PDF indians are a good example of this phenomenon. And after all that they proclaim secularism with a straight face. What hypocrisy.

Having said all that, I don't give a damn about hindu/hindutva nationalism. its their country & they can do whatever they feel like with it. But they cross the line when they try to impose their beliefs on minority muslim population under the guise of secularism and culture. Don't fart about Islam & muslim. Stay within your countries internal affairs & don't talk non-sense about other countries & communities if U are indeed non-communal and suckular. But champions of hypocrisy won't be able to do that.

You must be incredibly stupid if you seriously think that a bunch of online warriors (most of them dont even live in India) spreading their BS propaganda represent Indias population.

 

[IND151]

"The common man does not believe in false temple politics. Everybody wants development and good governance."

absolutely correct

unlike in early 1990s, common man now wants economic development, prosperity, stability and wants to be benefited from economic development.

 

[Black Widow]

Yesterday I watched almost all news channels, No channel was discussing "RamJanm Bhoomi Liberation" issue except Barkha (The lady who was caught into Neera Radia case) Dutt.

The NDTV was at its low and trying to benefit there Masters (Sonia and Rahul) by raising an issue, which is not relevant since last 15 years...

 

[Abingdonboy]

You can believe any BS you want but the facts belie your optimism. Having a TOKEN MUSLIM PRESIDENT does not mean Indian Muslims are getting fair treatment in India. The fact is that Muslims get the short end of the stick when it comes to bread and butter ECONOMIC ISSUES. Muslims are more than 20 % of India and yet they get less than 5% of federal Govt. jobs.

Read SACHAR COMMISSION REPORT to get the facts and stop spreading BS lies about the true face of Life of a Muslim in India:





Sachar Committee Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The major points covered in the reports are:

In the field of literacy the Committee has found that the rate among Muslims is very much below than the national average. The gap between Muslims and the general average is greater in urban areas and women. 25 per cent of children of Muslim parents in the 6-14 year age group have either never attended school or have dropped out.

Muslim parents are not averse to mainstream education or to send their children to affordable Government schools. The access to government schools for children of Muslim parents is limited.

Bidi workers, tailors and mechanics need to be provided with social safety nets and social security. The participation of Muslims in the professional and managerial cadre is low.

The average amount of bank loan disbursed to the Muslims is 2/3 of the amount disbursed to other minorities. In some cases it is half. The Reserve Bank of India’s efforts to extend banking and credit facilities under the Prime Minister’s 15-point programme of 1983 has mainly benefited other minorities marginalizing Muslims.

There is a clear and significant inverse association between the proportion of the Muslim population and the availability of educational infrastructure in small villages. Muslim concentration villages are not well served with pucca approach roads and local bus stops.

Substantially larger proportion of the Muslim households in urban areas are in the less than Rs.500 expenditure bracket.

The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS.

Muslim community has a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways while 98.7% of them are positioned at lower levels. Representation of Muslims is very low in the Universities and in Banks. Their share in police constables is only 6%, in health 4.4%, in transport 6.5%.

For the Maulana Azad Education Foundation to be effective the corpus fund needs to be increased to 1000 crores. Total allocation in the four years 2002 to 2006 for Madarsa Modernization Scheme is 106 crores. The information regarding the Scheme has not adequately percolated down. Even if the share of Muslims in elected bodies is low they and other under represented segments can be involved in the decision making process through innovative mechanisms.

Most of the variables indicate that Muslim-OBCs are significantly deprived in comparison to Hindu-OBCs. The work participation rate (WPR) shows the presence of a sharp difference between Hindu-OBCs (67%) and the Muslims. The share of Muslim-OBCs in government/ PSU jobs is much lower than Hindu-OBCs.

There are about 5 lakh registered Wakfs with 600,000 acres (2,400 km²) land and Rs 6,000 crore book value.

A token Muslim president- behave!! President Kalam is probably the most well regarded Indian president in history by all Indians and by the way genius 1/4 Presidents in Indian history have been Muslim- hardly tokenism. I guess the Vice President, law minister, Cheif justice of India, chief of the Election commission, the most popular Bollywood stars etc have all just been tokens??!! I can forgive you though you come from a land where minorities are subverted and attacked on a daily basis and there are laws that ensure they can't hold any official office in your state, where draconian blasphemy laws are passed so they can't practice any religion other than Islam where they are murdered by the very men charged with their protection, where these murderers are then hailed as heroes for killing fellow Pakistanis where the killer is showered with Rose petals. Talking about India indulging in mere tokenism- Pakistan can't even do that!

 

[Sashan]

You can believe any BS you want but the facts belie your optimism. Having a TOKEN MUSLIM PRESIDENT does not mean Indian Muslims are getting fair treatment in India. The fact is that Muslims get the short end of the stick when it comes to bread and butter ECONOMIC ISSUES. Muslims are more than 20 % of India and yet they get less than 5% of federal Govt. jobs.

Read SACHAR COMMISSION REPORT to get the facts and stop spreading BS lies about the true face of Life of a Muslim in India:





Sachar Committee Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The major points covered in the reports are:

In the field of literacy the Committee has found that the rate among Muslims is very much below than the national average. The gap between Muslims and the general average is greater in urban areas and women. 25 per cent of children of Muslim parents in the 6-14 year age group have either never attended school or have dropped out.

Muslim parents are not averse to mainstream education or to send their children to affordable Government schools. The access to government schools for children of Muslim parents is limited.

Bidi workers, tailors and mechanics need to be provided with social safety nets and social security. The participation of Muslims in the professional and managerial cadre is low.

The average amount of bank loan disbursed to the Muslims is 2/3 of the amount disbursed to other minorities. In some cases it is half. The Reserve Bank of India’s efforts to extend banking and credit facilities under the Prime Minister’s 15-point programme of 1983 has mainly benefited other minorities marginalizing Muslims.

There is a clear and significant inverse association between the proportion of the Muslim population and the availability of educational infrastructure in small villages. Muslim concentration villages are not well served with pucca approach roads and local bus stops.

Substantially larger proportion of the Muslim households in urban areas are in the less than Rs.500 expenditure bracket.

The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS.

Muslim community has a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways while 98.7% of them are positioned at lower levels. Representation of Muslims is very low in the Universities and in Banks. Their share in police constables is only 6%, in health 4.4%, in transport 6.5%.

For the Maulana Azad Education Foundation to be effective the corpus fund needs to be increased to 1000 crores. Total allocation in the four years 2002 to 2006 for Madarsa Modernization Scheme is 106 crores. The information regarding the Scheme has not adequately percolated down. Even if the share of Muslims in elected bodies is low they and other under represented segments can be involved in the decision making process through innovative mechanisms.

Most of the variables indicate that Muslim-OBCs are significantly deprived in comparison to Hindu-OBCs. The work participation rate (WPR) shows the presence of a sharp difference between Hindu-OBCs (67%) and the Muslims. The share of Muslim-OBCs in government/ PSU jobs is much lower than Hindu-OBCs.

There are about 5 lakh registered Wakfs with 600,000 acres (2,400 km²) land and Rs 6,000 crore book value.

First, Indian muslims have nothing to do with you.

Second, have you read the 425 page Sachar report? I have been through most of it including the methodology used by Sachar Committee. Many of the discriminations quoted above - if you look at his report, he does not come to conclusion. Rather he used the word "alleged" everywhere when talking about discrimination.

He points out the reason as for the low literacy among muslims it is lack of private schools in muslim majority regions and quality government schools in those areas(and this is the case not specific to muslim majority regions alone) - And one more reason is the low returns on education as perceived by the muslims. I can point out numerous issues quoted in the Sachar report - female discrimination and so low literacy rate among muslim women, Ghettoism and slams the government for not doing much(but mind it - government can't do something specifically for a particular community alone as it is a violation of Indian constitution)

I can go on and on about what is there in the report. But I am not going to debate with you unless you have a clue of what is there in the report.

 

[aakash_2410]

You can believe any BS you want but the facts belie your optimism. Having a TOKEN MUSLIM PRESIDENT does not mean Indian Muslims are getting fair treatment in India. The fact is that Muslims get the short end of the stick when it comes to bread and butter ECONOMIC ISSUES. Muslims are more than 20 % of India and yet they get less than 5% of federal Govt. jobs.

False propaganda! Muslims in India are about 13-14% of population and Most of the Muslims in India are poor is not b ecause of discrimination it is because of the fact that at the time of partition Muslim elite migrated to Pakistan.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Reading the pakistani comments and fresh perspective on this thread, now I understand the expected quality of posting the mods were hinting at y'day when they closed this thread in half an hour.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...ars-shahadat-30-temples-muslim-militants.html

 

[Kaniska]

Well, Its true not only for Pakistanis but all humans (except a few) to live a peaceful and prosporous life, but again no animalshave ever killed so mnay of their own kind as humans have done since stepping on this planet.

NO! No hindu or christian or follower of any other religion can become the president of Pakistan, becuase Pakistan is not a secular state. It is a declared muslim state and prohibits any non-muslim to be the head of state by its constitution.

I agree with you....First of all we,Indian people should ask the same question to ourselves. Why Pakistan will allow Non Muslim to allow to rule itself...We have to understand the political destiny of both India and Pakistan are different.The interpretation of democracy and role of secularism is different for India and Pakistan...

I am neither a pro Pakistan nor intended to bash Pakistan for any road accident happens in India and then blamed for ISI role in it, kind of person too...I feel time has come so that Indian people should accept that more than enough dissimillarity exists between India and Pakistan where we think differently and we should respect it....

India choose secularism, by its choice or you can say because choice of Congress Party...No one was forcing us to become a secular nation.... Because we choose to become a secular nation, that is why Ayodhya is being questioned again and again....Had it been Pakistan or somewhere else in Non secular nation, the perception should be different.

So here is my thought about the entire Ayodhya episode:

1- I feel sad about it...I am frustrated about it...but again when i sit quietly and think about it...then again i start protesting myself...Why not none of the so called secular parties of India should also denounce the destruction of so many Hindu religious places that was done by Islamic invaders 300 years back....Friends,i know you will be asking the same question that why should we think about something that has happened long time back? Then friends, there is an answer to my mind but i never says...The answer is that "...Hmmm...Ok...if time is factor for getting an execuse..then ok...why do you complain about Ayodhya? After 100 year people will also forget about it...What is the big fuss about it..." Then my other friend asked me that i should not compare about Ayodhya with 300 years back episode...But then i said it to him....then our GOV should make sure that those kind of histroy books in school that says that Muslim invaders have destroyed the temples should have been removed from school book itself.... Because that history of ancient India about destruction of temple is really creating a very very strong hatred to a specific community people in out country in a different way...

2- Ayodhya is a reflection of our society...It is a perfect case study about the truth about the India and its mob people around us....Democracy and secularism is very easy to dream off but its is very difficult to practice it and also execute it...India had the opportunity to make course correction at the time of independence itself where Pakistan and India was created....But anyway because of power hungry Congress and its people we choose secularism without giving iota of thought about the impact on the future generation Hindu people.

3- Time is a great a@@@hole factor...It will force us to forget us...If we donot, then of course we will be subjected to same kind of political exploitation that has been done by Congi party that is happening with us since last 65 years..

 

[Hellraiser007]

Following Islam as the state religion does not mean we will let any bullcrap of indian secularism pass by when there clearly is none. By adopting secularism as official indian religion/non-rligion, all religions in india should have equal rights, but the past 60 years tell us that hindus have largely violated and mascared people of other religions with total backing of the state, which means india is not what it pretends to be.

Why rant about India when you are intentionally killing minority sects, You people have the mentality of finding some inferior one and claiming superior over them but India is a different league today and will have its own destiny.

Pakistanis should have no right about the secularism in India, You people are not even tolerant about your own sects first correct that. World already ignored your opinion.

Looking at PDF & other social net working sites and the ground realities of India, one won't agree with the above statement. I say internet indians are a very good representation of Indian popular psyche. They have an allergy to specially muslims and Islam which is being aggravated by their state backed hindu nationalism. They say hinduism/paganism is not a religion but a culture of the subcontient which even muslim should follow. They call muslims invaders and give insulting epithets to muslim scholars and leaders/kings. PDF indians are a good example of this phenomenon. And after all that they proclaim secularism with a straight face. What hypocrisy.

Having said all that, I don't give a damn about hindu/hindutva nationalism. its their country & they can do whatever they feel like with it. But they cross the line when they try to impose their beliefs on minority muslim population under the guise of secularism and culture. Don't fart about Islam & muslim. Stay within your countries internal affairs & don't talk non-sense about other countries & communities if U are indeed non-communal and suckular. But champions of hypocrisy won't be able to do that.

Who are you to talk about Indian muslims you left these guys and parted to a separate country. Stop ranting and live in peace in BD.
These guys in India will take care of them.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Reading the pakistani comments and fresh perspective on this thread, now I understand the expected quality of posting the mods were hinting at y'day when they closed this thread in half an hour.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...ars-shahadat-30-temples-muslim-militants.html

These days mods are too biased

 

[INDIC]

False propaganda! Muslims in India are about 13-14% of population and Most of the Muslims in India are poor is not b ecause of discrimination it is because of the fact that at the time of partition Muslim elite migrated to Pakistan.

Although almost all Muslim elite moved to Pakistan but in 65 years Muslims in India turned out to be more educated compared to Pakistanis.