How important are fighter-jet specifications, in a war-time situation?

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

The time for MIG 21 type excursions is long gone----it is understood and accepted that a pilot who is sitting in the cockpit of an SU 30 is going to be a superior pilot---just by the process of selection and elimination---the minimum standard of an SU 30 pilot would be of a higher calibre MIG21 driver---.

So if top notch players from the MIG 21 sqdrns are taken in to the SU 30's---it means that the man behind the machine issue becomes a non-issue----meaning the minimum criteria has been met up in advance when that seat was filled up.

Same is the case with the mirage 2k 5's---it is taken for granted that they meet and exceed the qualification without any out---same thing on the mig 21 bis pilot---.

The iaf is approx 3 times the number of paf pilots---which mean that even in the worst case scenario---2 out of 3 indian pilots are horrible---and only 1/3 are as competitive with paf pilots----then according to this scenario----the paf is doomed----because now it comes down to the machine and machine only----because 1/3 of pilots mean that iaf will be able to place the same number of competitive pilots against the paf----accepting that all of paf's 400 pilots are top notch flyers---which is a pipes dream.

I would say---under these conditions---about 40 % of paf pilots may exceed what the iaf has to put forward----but then their advanced planes and weaponery would take away any advantage.

Bottomline----paf is in deep deep trouble---.

Good point once again.

Bottomline is also correct as you are in our Think Tank what solution you have for PAF other than what it is already doing?

 

[Tempest II]

True in conventional warfare, I think with non conventional weapons in region the whole equation can change pretty soon as it has happened in Pakistan and India's case twice; 2002 and 2008.

Asymmetrical warfare is another area where this 30% technology gap thing can fade away.... for obvious reasons examples Iraq and Afghanistan.

I got to agree with you - conventional wars will be different.

 

[MastanKhan]

Good point once again.

Bottomline is also correct as you are in our Think Tank what solution you have for PAF other than what it is already doing?

Hi,

PAF needs to think out of the box---get out of their F 16 'FETISH'---find ways and resource to get some m2k--9's to fill in the immediate deficiency---and then pray like hell that the blk 52 is delivered in time alongwith the mlu's----.

They need to get off their high horses and land back in the real world---. The future of the nation's air defence cannot be totally placed on completely unproven systems----and absolutely not on two brand new systems---which haven't even learnt to fly at 85% of their capacities.

PAF has really really put the nation together and really put us back by at least 15 to 20 years in comparisons of compatibility with our main opponent.

India's posture has been changing slowly but surely in the last few months---first the su 30 in kashmir---then the mig 29's on the frontline air base---more troops posted on the border---what india is doing is assuredly setting up the attack---I have looked at some indian newspapers---there is hysteria---threat from pakistan and taliban based muj---indian papers are continuously talking of attacks on india---the people are being prepped for war---the world is being prepped for war---just the timing and chosing of the start of hostilities would be india's by choice---the result may not be.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

PAF needs to think out of the box---get out of their F 16 'FETISH'---find ways and resource to get some m2k--9's to fill in the immediate deficiency---and then pray like hell that the blk 52 is delivered in time alongwith the mlu's----.

They need to get off their high horses and land back in the real world---. The future of the nation's air defence cannot be totally placed on completely unproven systems----and absolutely not on two brand new systems---which haven't even learnt to fly at 85% of their capacities.

PAF has really really put the nation together and really put us back by at least 15 to 20 years in comparisons of compatibility with our main opponent.

India's posture has been changing slowly but surely in the last few months---first the su 30 in kashmir---then the mig 29's on the frontline air base---more troops posted on the border---what india is doing is assuredly setting up the attack---I have looked at some indian newspapers---there is hysteria---threat from pakistan and taliban based muj---indian papers are continuously talking of attacks on india---the people are being prepped for war---the world is being prepped for war---just the timing and chosing of the start of hostilities would be india's by choice---the result may not be.

Sir can you be please more specific about "out of Box" ... I don't think PAF didn't consider Rafale or M2K-9 but thing is they are waiting for MMRCA to be finalized. As far as PAF put us back 15 years I think whole blame can't be put on PAF alone as we know that PAF was eager to have M2K in 1990s but it was political interference which blow that deal.

 

[ice_man]

like i keep saying an average pilot becomes an ACE given a good machine....and an ACE becomes helpless in a crappy fighter!!!

PAF seriously needs to get out of its OBSESSIVE LOVE for the F-16 and its unwavering affection for US hardware.....

PAF should try going for the EURO FIGHTER or the Swedish GRIPPEN......actually the grippen even comes with ToT....why not go for something like that?

Mirage 2000-9 well the enemy has it as well as the production line has stopped so why go for a product that is already a generation old.....

currently the swedish plane even though it carries certain US parts is still the best option....

 

[Chanakyaa]

Hi,

The time for MIG 21 type excursions is long gone----it is understood and accepted that a pilot who is sitting in the cockpit of an SU 30 is going to be a superior pilot---just by the process of selection and elimination---the minimum standard of an SU 30 pilot would be of a higher calibre MIG21 driver---.

So if top notch players from the MIG 21 sqdrns are taken in to the SU 30's---it means that the man behind the machine issue becomes a non-issue----meaning the minimum criteria has been met up in advance when that seat was filled up.

Same is the case with the mirage 2k 5's---it is taken for granted that they meet and exceed the qualification without any out---same thing on the mig 21 bis pilot---.

The iaf is approx 3 times the number of paf pilots---which mean that even in the worst case scenario---2 out of 3 indian pilots are horrible---and only 1/3 are as competitive with paf pilots----then according to this scenario----the paf is doomed----because now it comes down to the machine and machine only----because 1/3 of pilots mean that iaf will be able to place the same number of competitive pilots against the paf----accepting that all of paf's 400 pilots are top notch flyers---which is a pipes dream.

I would say---under these conditions---about 40 % of paf pilots may exceed what the iaf has to put forward----but then their advanced planes and weaponery would take away any advantage.

Bottomline----paf is in deep deep trouble---.

Excellet Explanation.

India too can sit in comfort as if we replace PAF with IAF and IAF with PLAAF in the above Scenario, India Might be in a greater trouble.

India needs More AirCrafts desperately atleast as far as the China is Concerned.

 

[Student]

---I have looked at some indian newspapers---there is hysteria---threat from pakistan and taliban based muj---indian papers are continuously talking of attacks on india---the people are being prepped for war---the world is being prepped for war---just the timing and chosing of the start of hostilities would be india's by choice---the result may not be.

Well there you go you can have best of the so called war machines but you still cannot be 100 sure what the outcome will be. Pakistan's defence doctrine was never based on matching India plane for plane and machine for machine hence Nuckes and there associated delivery systems. I wish no war but if there is war between India and Pakistan it has every possibility of converting the South East Asia into Nuclear Wasteland.

 

[pakpower]

whatever you guys said about india that he can do that blah blah blah infact in actuall he can't do anything india doesn't have balls to attack on Pakistan from the front but sure they are back stabbers there is no doubt about it look at todays incident.

I am 110% sure that India was involve in this and they are doing this for the past 62 years back stabbing us. They are just cowards no guts at all to attach us from the front.

 

[raveolution]

whatever you guys said about india that he can do that blah blah blah infact in actuall he can't do anything india doesn't have balls to attack on Pakistan from the front but sure they are back stabbers there is no doubt about it look at todays incident.

I am 110% sure that India was involve in this and they are doing this for the past 62 years back stabbing us. They are just cowards no guts at all to attach us from the front.

We didn't do a Kargil.

 

[Developereo]

Instead of buying more planes, wouldn't it be better to spend our money on equipping all our JF-17 with top of the line AESA radar and BVR missiles?

 

[paritosh]

We didn't do a Kargil.

and neither did we vow to bleed Pakistan through a 1000 cuts.

 

[gogbot]

This whole topic is one dimensional.
You are assuming working airfields in war time.
as well as logistics to coordinate large squadrons of planes. all at once
Wars cant be won from the sky alone.

JETS are need to bot support the ground forces as well as spearhead assaults.
But given India and Pak proximity, Cruise missiles will be exchanged frequently.

Targeting Airfields, Radar installations etc. surgical strikes on logistics will be a common occurrence.
That way fighter jets can then Achieve air supremacy/dominance and start full scale ground assaults keep the enemy on retreat.

The accuracy of missiles and Bombs has increased exponentially over the last few years.

Although Fighter jets will be needed to dislodge ground forces.

GPS Guided Missiles will be what determine the momentum of the war.

 

[Tempest II]

Instead of buying more planes, wouldn't it be better to spend our money on equipping all our JF-17 with top of the line AESA radar and BVR missiles?

I say you are making a very good point. Looking at how a basic Mig-21 can become Bison or Lancer with avionics and weapons systems upgrades of how F-16A and come to Block 50 standards with upgrades, your suggestion is very valid. Keep the cheap platform but as far as it can, put more advanced systems - bring it up to the Desert Falcon/Gripen NG standards.

 

[MastanKhan]

Instead of buying more planes, wouldn't it be better to spend our money on equipping all our JF-17 with top of the line AESA radar and BVR missiles?

Hi,

No you cannot----you cannot load up a honda civic and expect it to be the rplacement of a corvette.

The size of the plane creates limitations on the size of the radar that can be installed and similiarly on the number of bvr's it can carry.


Now coming to whatever weaponery you have-----it is not true that you can never be sure of the out come---the issue is at what price the voctory---and how the war will be fought.

Wars are not fought on the battle fields all the time---it is not neccessary to win untill and unless your push the dagger into someone's heart---it is for the subjugation of the enemy and if someone can do it with a minimal loss of man machine and economy---well we can say that we have entered a different kind of battle field---.

We all know that paks doctrine is not to match india plane for plane---there is no secret to it----but there has to be some kind of a match somewhere for a certain number of planes---even that match is non existant.

 

[ice_man]

We didn't do a Kargil.

hey don't go off topic but kargil was a direct response to SIACHEN in 1984!!!! keep your skirt on!!!

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

and neither did we vow to bleed Pakistan through a 1000 cuts.

ohh really try explaining that to RSS and shiv sena and people like varun gandhi