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How important are fighter-jet specifications, in a war-time situation?

Coolyo

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From what I understand, dog-fights would be extremely rare during war-time situations.

Which made me think that a jet like the JF-17, which is not as great as more modern 5th generation fighters, if produced in large quantities could prove to be just as effective to the enemy.

Personally I think that the PAF is doing the right thing in concentrating on producing large quantities of this plane. Do you agree, or would you rather see more high-end 5th generation type fighters in the PAF airforce?
 
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From what I understand, dog-fights would be extremely rare during war-time situations.

Which made me think that a jet like the JF-17, which is not as great as more modern 5th generation fighters, if produced in large quantities could prove to be just as effective to the enemy.

Personally I think that the PAF is doing the right thing in concentrating on producing large quantities of this plane. Do you agree, or would you rather see more high-end 5th generation type fighters in the PAF airforce?

I fully agree with Coolyo on the dogfights bit in modern warfare. His point that JF17's in large numbers are an effective force is also true but in relativity. What would the PAF be against if a war was to be fought around 2015? (considering that is the time line by when the PAF would be flying JF-17's in large numbers), is a very valid point.

At that time both countries inventories would be like this:

PAF - 60 F16 Blk 52, 36 J10B, 120 JF17 Blk 2,3 (assuming 25 fighters built a year from now on), 65 Mirage Rose and 50 F7PG. I'm assuming the balance older Mirages and F7's will be replaced by JF's.

IAF - 280 SU30 MKI Blk 1&2, 100 MRCA (Assuming decision made by 2011-12 which is a reasonable timeline), 60 Mig29 SMT, 50 Mirage 2000-5, 125 Mig 21 Bison, 100 Mig27 upgraded, 150 Jaguar DarinIII and 50 LCA (Maybe, since everyone here is not sure of its FOC).

Numbers as well as specifications are both essential to win a battle which is obvious. PAF needs to ensure that it inducts a greater number of either Western or Chinese high end multirole aircraft as the numbers even now or 6 years later simply do not add up. In previous wars, PAF had the qualitative edge which ensured that it could fight back but in the future they seem to be lacking in both quality quantity.

Please feel free to make serious comments and do correct me if the numbers are wrong.

Cheers:cheers:
 
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From what I understand, dog-fights would be extremely rare during war-time situations.

That is exactly what the USAF thought with their AAMs before going into Vietnam. Results are there for all to see. They set up Top Gun school to teach dog fighting skills to their pilots.
Dog-fighting is not going anywhere, bvr/wvr missiles or not! The better the machine and its capabilities the more help an experienced/well trained pilot gets and it makes a whole lot of difference!

I don't really know how good of a dog-fighter a JF-17 is (its still to get FOC), but used effectively in large numbers, they might be capable of inflicting some serious damage on an unsuspecting enemy.

Lets not get into speculations about future numbers... you go to war, if need arises, with the army/forces you presently have, not what you wish you've had!!
 
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I don't have the full facts but isn't it that when attacking, assuming all else is equal, you have to have a numerical advantage of something like 4:1? I believe it translate into that when all is summed up (numbers, technolgy, training, etc), IAF would need to be 4 times superior to launch a effective attack. ... ... I don't think I am saying what I want to say effectively but if somebody else understands, they can help explain.
 
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I don't have the full facts but isn't it that when attacking, assuming all else is equal, you have to have a numerical advantage of something like 4:1? I believe it translate into that when all is summed up (numbers, technolgy, training, etc), IAF would need to be 4 times superior to launch a effective attack. ... ... I don't think I am saying what I want to say effectively but if somebody else understands, they can help explain.


I guess with all things equal, one would assume a slight advantage for the defending air force as they would have the advantage of home terrain as well as SAM's and AA fire. However the 4:1 figure seems to be exaggerated. I guess historically as well as now the IAF has always maintained a ratio of 2:1 vs the PAF, with the PAF negating this advantage well.

However things in the future are not looking as well for the PAF because the IAF will outnumber it both in quality and quantity, unless some more 4.5 gen planes are fastracked for procurement atleast by 2012, by when the IAF would have selected its MRCA.
 
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I guess with all things equal, one would assume a slight advantage for the defending air force as they would have the advantage of home terrain as well as SAM's and AA fire. However the 4:1 figure seems to be exaggerated. I guess historically as well as now the IAF has always maintained a ratio of 2:1 vs the PAF, with the PAF negating this advantage well.

However things in the future are not looking as well for the PAF because the IAF will outnumber it both in quality and quantity, unless some more 4.5 gen planes are fastracked for procurement atleast by 2012, by when the IAF would have selected its MRCA.

Thanks for your reply. I have in the meantime found more info on the required numerical ratio between an attacking vs a defending force:

Globalization, security, and the ... - Google Books

4:1 would be correct considering they are saying the ratio is from 3:1 to 5:1. I am taking this to say - on the minimum, you need a 3:1 EFFECTIVE advantage. This EFFECTIVENESS can be from numbers or technology or tactics/training. Note however the discussion that the idea is to keep the conflict short - i.e. get in and get out fast or keep the attack limited so you don't confront the defender's full resources.

4db8a880fd12280d323fa7755be28eca.jpg
 
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Thanks for your reply. I have in the meantime found more info on the required numerical ratio between an attacking vs a defending force:

Globalization, security, and the ... - Google Books

4:1 would be correct considering they are saying the ratio is from 3:1 to 5:1. I am taking this to say - on the minimum, you need a 3:1 EFFECTIVE advantage. This EFFECTIVENESS can be from numbers or technology or tactics/training. Note however the discussion that the idea is to keep the conflict short - i.e. get in and get out fast or keep the attack limited so you don't confront the defender's full resources.

4db8a880fd12280d323fa7755be28eca.jpg

Spot on. Nice article. If one were to try keeping a conflict short i guess a 3:1 advantage is required. However what would be your thoughts on the saying that "attack is the best form of defence"? The fact that there would be an element of surprise and plus the attacking forces knowing exactly which targets they are going for may not allow defending forces to scramble and be at the right place at the right time. Just wanted to factor this in as well.

I guess it all boils down to luck, intelligence inputs and better operational strategy.:cheers:
 
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I had googled further on this subject and briefly browsed a US Marines warfare book where they were talking of the same numbers/ratios. They touched on your question and said, “Being the defending force does not necessarily mean waiting for the enemy to attack”. They mention pre-emptive strikes as “defensive” and ambushes (i.e. meeting the enemy halfway in a “better” kill-zone).

I agree with you also that “mobile defense” (i.e. being able to take the battle to the enemy) presents the attacker with fewer options. E.g. ground/fixed air defense systems as compared to interceptor jets.
 
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Hi,

A large numbers of JF 17's doesnot mean a whole lot----fighetr jet specs are very instrumental in putting up a strong offence and defence---.

Any air force ought to have some kind of parity with the opposition---otherwise the air force is dead meat.

Remember---in air combat----you can only surprise a superior enemy aircraft a couple of times with your tricks----after that you are minced meat---opposition is not made up of idiots----they have some very heavy clout as well.

Don't take the opposition as fools and weak---and just becaue the paf fighter pilot walked with a bigger strut in the posture and step---doesn't mean that the enemy is a weakling---.

The fighter jet specifactions are of the ultimate importance----fighter jets makes a political statement as well---a political stability or an invitation to war---.

A less capable inventory sends an invitation of war to an already restless enemy---a highly rated and technically superior strike force makes the enemy think ten times before they would take any action.

But if they have numerical superiority and technical superiority---then the ball is intheir park---they can hit at their discretion and a timing of their choice.
 
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I agree with you. I will qoute my earlier post:
I am taking this to say - on the minimum, you need a 3:1 EFFECTIVE advantage. This EFFECTIVENESS can be from numbers or technology or tactics/training.

I completely understand that it is not about numbers.

The fighter jet specifactions are of the ultimate importance----fighter jets makes a political statement as well---a political stability or an invitation to war---.

I don't agree with you here. US AIMVAL and ACEVAL studies proved that the man behind the machine is the most important. In most cases a competent pilot/soldier with good situational awareness can make up for less capable equipment. On the other hand, in most case, a less competent man with little SA cannot be helped by better equipment. You might not have read Sir Murad’s posts where he testfies of Mig-21s piloted by PAF pilots wining against Israelis and the same Mig-21s with non-PAF pilots loosing to same Israelis.
 
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I agree with you. I will qoute my earlier post:


I completely understand that it is not about numbers.



I don't agree with you here. US AIMVAL and ACEVAL studies proved that the man behind the machine is the most important. In most cases a competent pilot/soldier with good situational awareness can make up for less capable equipment. On the other hand, in most case, a less competent man with little SA cannot be helped by better equipment. You might not have read Sir Murad’s posts where he testfies of Mig-21s piloted by PAF pilots wining against Israelis and the same Mig-21s with non-PAF pilots loosing to same Israelis.

I would agree with Tempest that the man behind the machine is important as well. However in modern day combat, we see technology and specifications getting more and more important as well. It is agreed that if you put a Algerian pilot behind a F22 he may be shot down by an American pilot in a F16. In the case of India and Pakistan, the gap, if any between training and competence is not much. Hope you agree with me that.
 
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I would agree with Tempest that the man behind the machine is important as well. However in modern day combat, we see technology and specifications getting more and more important as well. It is agreed that if you put a Algerian pilot behind a F22 he may be shot down by an American pilot in a F16. In the case of India and Pakistan, the gap, if any between training and competence is not much. Hope you agree with me that.

I believe part of the studies the US did is what led to the creation of TOPGUN school (I could be wrong).

I agree with you raveolution, it has to have limits as to how inferior is one machine compared to the rival and the same goes for the pilots. However I believe the thinking is that an 80 % capable man with a 100% capable machine will not defeat a 100% capable man with an 80% capable machine. However there is say 10% difference between the men and 30% between the machine then the machine difference will dominate.

Like in many wars, technological advantage can be short lived and like MastanKhan said, very quickly the enemy will wise-up to your tactics or technology and find a way to defeat you even if he does not have to develop an equal technology – JUST BY USING HIS BRAINS AND IMPROVISATION.

Here is a brief of ACEVAL and AIMVAL from here: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/watts.html

This implication of actual combat experience has been strongly confirmed by large-scale tests designed to produce statistically meaningful data about air combat. In 1977, the bulk of two major air-to-air tests were flown on an instrumented air combat maneuvering range north of Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada: the Air Intercept Missile Evaluation (AIMVAL) and the Air Combat Evaluation (ACEVAL). These tests pitted "Blue Force" F-15s and F-14s against "Red Force" F-5Es, chosen to simulate the Soviet-built MiG-21; Cubic Corporation’s air combat maneuvering instrumentation (ACMI) system provided a combat area some 40 nautical miles in diameter as well as "realtime" data on the engagements.60 The Blue fighters were "armed" with guns, short-range infrared (IR) missiles, and the medium-range, radar-guided AIM-7F Sparrow missiles; Red ordnance, by contrast, was limited to guns and IR missiles. AIMVAL sought to assess the operational utility of five existing and proposed IR missile concepts.61 ACEVAL explored the factors affecting engagement outcomes when multiple aircraft are involved, with force size, force ratio, and initial ground-controlled-intercept (GCI) condition (Red advantage, neutral, or Blue advantage) as the primary test variables.62 To give a feel for the scale of these tests, AIMVAL’s test matrix included Blue-versus-Red force ratios of 1-v-1 (one F-15 or F-14 versus one F-5E), 1-v-2, 2-v-2, and 2-v-4, and called for 540 valid engagements involving 1,800 sorties.63 ACEVAL’s test matrix added 2-v-1, 4-v-2, and 4-v-4 trials to the four force ratios used in AIMVAL and required a total of 360 valid engagements involving 1,488 sorties.64

The results of AIMVAL/ACEVAL were highly controversial at the time. At the core of the debate was the fact that "superior" Blue fighters, avionics, and missiles had not dominated Blue-Red exchange ratios nearly as much as had been expected (except in certain "test bins" such as isolated 1-v-1 trials). Not widely noted in 1977 and 1978 was the disconnect between these expectations and past historical experience. If superior Blue technology had proven as dominant in AIMVAL/ACEVAL as many expected, then these tests would have also revealed the irrelevance of past combat experience, especially its implication that situation awareness explained why people were shot down four times out of five. So dramatic a break with combat experience would have been a watershed. However, by 1979 more thoughtful reflection on AIMVAL/ACEVAL began to suggest that it was not quite time to reject previous air combat history. As Lieutenant Colonel "Shad" Dvorchak wrote in a special 1979 issue of the Tactical Analysis Bulletin, in AIMVAL incremental hardware advantages had tended to wash out in the long run as opponents adapted; similarly, in ACEVAL, human interactions had been five times as influential on outcomes as test variables like force ratio or the initial GCI condition.
 
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Hi,

A large numbers of JF 17's doesnot mean a whole lot----fighetr jet specs are very instrumental in putting up a strong offence and defence---.

Any air force ought to have some kind of parity with the opposition---otherwise the air force is dead meat.

Remember---in air combat----you can only surprise a superior enemy aircraft a couple of times with your tricks----after that you are minced meat---opposition is not made up of idiots----they have some very heavy clout as well.

Don't take the opposition as fools and weak---and just becaue the paf fighter pilot walked with a bigger strut in the posture and step---doesn't mean that the enemy is a weakling---.

The fighter jet specifactions are of the ultimate importance----fighter jets makes a political statement as well---a political stability or an invitation to war---.

A less capable inventory sends an invitation of war to an already restless enemy---a highly rated and technically superior strike force makes the enemy think ten times before they would take any action.

But if they have numerical superiority and technical superiority---then the ball is intheir park---they can hit at their discretion and a timing of their choice.

Excellent post and fully agree but would like to say that those words of "ultimate importance" are little overkill in your effort of highlighting your point of view which is true.

Right now we are economically messed up and there is a potential we might messed up with yankis politically if not played our cards with caution.
 
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Hi,

The time for MIG 21 type excursions is long gone----it is understood and accepted that a pilot who is sitting in the cockpit of an SU 30 is going to be a superior pilot---just by the process of selection and elimination---the minimum standard of an SU 30 pilot would be of a higher calibre MIG21 driver---.

So if top notch players from the MIG 21 sqdrns are taken in to the SU 30's---it means that the man behind the machine issue becomes a non-issue----meaning the minimum criteria has been met up in advance when that seat was filled up.

Same is the case with the mirage 2k 5's---it is taken for granted that they meet and exceed the qualification without any out---same thing on the mig 21 bis pilot---.

The iaf is approx 3 times the number of paf pilots---which mean that even in the worst case scenario---2 out of 3 indian pilots are horrible---and only 1/3 are as competitive with paf pilots----then according to this scenario----the paf is doomed----because now it comes down to the machine and machine only----because 1/3 of pilots mean that iaf will be able to place the same number of competitive pilots against the paf----accepting that all of paf's 400 pilots are top notch flyers---which is a pipes dream.

I would say---under these conditions---about 40 % of paf pilots may exceed what the iaf has to put forward----but then their advanced planes and weaponery would take away any advantage.

Bottomline----paf is in deep deep trouble---.
 
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I believe part of the studies the US did is what led to the creation of TOPGUN school (I could be wrong).

I agree with you raveolution, it has to have limits as to how inferior is one machine compared to the rival and the same goes for the pilots. However I believe the thinking is that an 80 % capable man with a 100% capable machine will not defeat a 100% capable man with an 80% capable machine. However there is say 10% difference between the men and 30% between the machine then the machine difference will dominate.

Like in many wars, technological advantage can be short lived and like MastanKhan said, very quickly the enemy will wise-up to your tactics or technology and find a way to defeat you even if he does not have to develop an equal technology – JUST BY USING HIS BRAINS AND IMPROVISATION.

Here is a brief of ACEVAL and AIMVAL from here: Doctrine, Technology, and War

True in conventional warfare, I think with non conventional weapons in region the whole equation can change pretty soon as it has happened in Pakistan and India's case twice; 2002 and 2008.

Asymmetrical warfare is another area where this 30% technology gap thing can fade away.... for obvious reasons examples Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
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