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How China and Russia Could Destroy America's F-35 in Battle

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Revealed: How China and Russia Could Destroy America's F-35 in Battle | The National Interest Blog

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Revealed: How China and Russia Could Destroy America's F-35 in Battle
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Malcolm Davis
July 26, 2015

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After the leaking of a report about the recent failure of an F-35 to win in a dogfight against an F-16D, debate has intensified about the future nature of air to air combat. In a recent Strategist post, Andrew Davies identifies the importance of combining long-range air-to-air engagement using ‘Beyond-Visual Range Air to Air Missiles’ (BVRAAMs), with the advantage bestowed by stealth technology to reduce detectability of the aircraft, as well as exploiting superior sensors, information processing and electronic warfare capability.

Davies also notes that it is yet to be demonstrated how effective these capabilities will be in a future operational environment, stating “…there are reasons to wonder how effective the F-35’s bag of tricks will be into the future, especially as counter-stealth systems evolve, and I’d like to see it carry more and longer-ranged weapons…” Clearly the F-35 was designed to undertake a particular approach to air-to-air combat in mind (long-range attacks) rather than close-in dogfighting. This highlights a key question that is now generating significant debate: “Are our current assumptions about future air combat—that BVR engagement will dominate and ‘dogfights’ have had their day
“—correct?

The underlying basis for current assumptions about the ascendance of long-range air-to-air combat and the demise of the dogfight is that U.S. and allied forces will always have a clear and sustainable ‘knowledge edge’ over any adversary in a manner that bestows superior situational awareness to permit unrestricted use of BVRAAMs. In this regard, the true success of the F-35 in tactical air-to-air warfare may in fact depend on an ability to preserve a knowledge edge at the strategic level in the face of determined efforts by future adversaries to decisively win an information battle at the outset of any future conflict.


In considering future adversaries, Chinese information warfare doctrine makes clear the requirement to attack U.S. C4ISR systems, including satellites, from the outset or even prior to, any military conflict. This information warfare campaign will be fought in space, cyberspace and across the electromagnetic spectrum. The PLA sees the information battle-space as an integrated environment comprising both cyberspace and electronic warfare, and base their approach to these domains around the concept of Integrated Networked Electronic Warfare (INEW).

General Dai Qingmin, PLA, states that a key goal of the PLA’s approach to INEW is to disrupt the normal operation of enemy battlefield information systems, while protecting one’s own, with the objective of seizing information superiority. Therefore, winning in the air against the PLAAF may be determined as much by which side wins these information warfare campaigns, as through success in tactical beyond-visual range air to air engagements. Imagine no data links between the F-35s and the AWACS; AESA radars on an E-7A Wedgetail spoofed; ASAT attacks that bring down strategic communications or computer-network attacks that strike logistics or which jam GPS signals, and the first shots fired are not missiles but satellites silenced by computer hackers or ground-based jamming. Furthermore there will be an incentive to strike quickly and decisively, with an information ‘battle of the first salvo’ effect emerging. Without the flexibility bestowed by these systems, the F-35 pilot must rely on on-board sensor systems such as its AESA Radar and Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) to detect, track and engage targets which increase the detectability of the aircraft and potentially bring the F-35 into the envelope of an opponent’s within visual range systems.

Does the F-35s dependence on maintaining information superiority make it ineffective? If the F-35 is relegated to a long-range BVR-AAM role, and if future air power doctrine is formulated with this approach in mind, then the effectiveness of the platform—and of Western air power—is at risk if key C4ISR systems can be attacked. In this regards, any assumption that modern air forces don’t dogfight is a dangerous one to make. Such an assumption lacks credibility as no air force would cede control of the air simply because it cannot operate with all desired advantages. Air forces have to be prepared to dogfight—even with the F-35 as their fighter. Finally, future adversaries will not be as courteous as to fight the U.S. and its allies on their own terms and in a manner that reinforces their advantage. The enemy always gets a vote.

In the future, what wins in the air is firstly winning the information battle across space, cyberspace and the electromagnetic spectrum to gain superior situational awareness and deny it to an opponent at the strategic, operational, and tactical level. An inability to counter an adversary’s information warfare systems will significantly reduce the ability of tactical combat aircraft like the F-35 to gain sufficient situational awareness to employ BVRAAMs effectively, and thus fight in our preferred approach to air operations.

It seems unlikely our future adversaries will fight in a manner most conducive to their own defeat, and it’s a safe bet that Chinese and Russian analysts understand all the weaknesses of the F-35 and how to wage air warfare in a manner to best exploit those weaknesses. Expect the F-35 to be forced to dogfight when it is employed in real warfare against an intelligent, well-equipped and determined enemy.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

U.S vs Russia and China ever engaging each other in a major war. it can only lead to one conclusion.

beat the F-35?? electronic attacks on our satellites and information centers :disagree:

launch the Tridents



destroy us will you. we'll destroy you as well


the cockroaches will inherit the earth, before we lose to Russia and China :coffee:
 
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

U.S vs Russia and China ever engaging each other in a major war. it can only lead to one conclusion.

beat the F-35?? electronic attacks on our satellites and information centers :disagree:

launch the Tridents



destroy us will you. we'll destroy you as well


the cockroaches will inherit the earth, before we lose to Russia and China :coffee:
Hmm so basically F-35 is a turkey or was this report just a sham ?
 
Hmm so basically F-35 is a turkey or was this report just a sham ?
F-35 a Turkey??? the article is claiming China can cut off the data links of the F-35 to it's weapons and support aircraft, lol.

my point is it would never get to that point.

the U.S has and will always fight 3rd and 2nd world countries.


three nuclear armed states fighting one another is just silly.

we obviously need to upgrade our nuclear capability to reiterated MAD that's what Russia and China are doing, but no we are wasting ten's of billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars on anti-ballistic missile systems....
 
Hmm so basically F-35 is a turkey or was this report just a sham ?

The recent criticism of the F-35 is based on its poor performance in training exercises, but all of these psuedo analyses don't happen to offer any of the JPO's information, such as:

The JPO also noted that the aircraft involved, AF-2, was a flight test prototype and thus lacked its stealth coating, mission, sensor and weapon systems that would have afforded off-boresight missile shots.

Pentagon Says Damning Report of F-35 Troubles ‘Doesn’t Tell the Entire Story’ | F-35 Lightning II

They all mention the F-35 did poorly, but not that it went into the training scenario handicapped.

So yes, the reports are a sham because they selectively pick pieces to tell while omitting others. It's confirmation bias on the part of defense journalist.

My nation is buying the F-35 (22 out of 52 are authorized, 4 have been ordered, AM-1 is currently under construction and will undergo flight testing this year - F35) ours wont be asked to dogfight, they'll be naval attack platforms to keep the Russian Navy honest. They'll handle interception duties too.

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AESA radars on an E-7A Wedgetail spoofed

:o:

o_O

Isn't this analysis about how China and Russia will beat the US? The US doesn't even use the E-7A, so unless the war also includes Turkey (possible if NATO is involved), Australia (also possible if NATO is involved) or South Korea (a big maybe), why is the E-7A being mentioned?

Boeing 737 AEW&C

:what:
 
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America can also attack the enemies satellites and computer systems. What the chinese and russians don't use them?


It seems unlikely that America will fight in a manner most conducive to its own defeat, and it’s a safe bet that U.S analysts understand all the weaknesses of the Russian and Chinese Jets and how to wage air warfare in a manner to best exploit those weaknesses. :coffee:
 
US should restart F-22 production as Canada, Japan and Australia prefer it over F-35.
 
F-35 is not proven in combat. Modern war 90% are still dog fights. Israelis used F-15 mainly in the dog fight role. F-35 can be tracked by modern long range radar.
 
F-35 is not proven in combat. Modern war 90% are still dog fights. Israelis used F-15 mainly in the dog fight role. F-35 can be tracked by modern long range radar.


what people don't get is you don't have to be behind the aircraft to kill it in a dog fight.

modern short range missiles since the AIM-9L and R-73 for Russia are ALL ASPECT

but yeah Israelis did a lot of dog fighting in it's F-15 in the 70's 80's


the F-35 has first look and first kill. so it'll see the enemy fighter first and it'll get the first shoot which will be a kill :enjoy:


F-35 is unproven, and I expect it stay unproven since F-15,16, and 18s are cheaper to fly and maintain :cray:
 
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F-35 is not proven in combat. Modern war 90% are still dog fights. Israelis used F-15 mainly in the dog fight role. F-35 can be tracked by modern long range radar.
There are virtually no operational modern aircraft that are combat proven in a large conventional war so I don't know what you are trying to get at.

Modern war 90 percent dog fights? No, try 90 percent BVR.

When you say "modern long range radar" here I'm assuming you mean the new large VHF systems. Of course they can be tracked, but at what range?

image.jpg


The Generalized RCS of the F-35 is said to be .00143 m2 . According to the table above it wont get detected until it is around 50 miles out with their best system.

There have been USAF tests where the GBU-39 has hit targets over 70 miles away when released at 50,000 feet. Do the math.

You are better off with a multi-static or bi-static system, not going mono e mono between a F-35 and a large low band surveillance radar.
 
There are virtually no operational modern aircraft that are combat proven in a large conventional war so I don't know what you are trying to get at.

Modern war 90 percent dog fights? No, try 90 percent BVR.

When you say "modern long range radar" here I'm assuming you mean the new large VHF systems. Of course they can be tracked, but at what range?

View attachment 241111

The Generalized RCS of the F-35 is said to be .00143 m2 . According to the table above it wont get detected until it is around 50 miles out with their best system.

There have been USAF tests where the GBU-39 has hit targets over 70 miles away when released at 50,000 feet. Do the math.

You are better off with a multi-static or bi-static system, not going mono e mono between a F-35 and a large low band surveillance radar.


No proof. F-22 was deployed against ISIS and came up short. AMRAAM can be easily jammed. Dogfight remains primary form of aerial warfare. Israel seldomly used F-15 in the BVR role.

 
Except we are not talking about Israel we are talking about a war between Russia, China, and the US with stealth aircraft


The US only dares to fight Jamaica. The US will never go up against a power like China or Russia.
 
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