How can Pakistan Navy defend itself from Brahmos cruse missile ?

[Basel]

SLCMs to attack Vizag?
Last time you sent a submarine that far from its home base , we all know what to it.

Pakistani SLCM have 120 Km range, which is not that great to begin with, offcourse Pakistani submarines are a threat, but the amount of damage, they can inflict on Indian navy or Indian naval bases is still very limited..compared to what IN submarine fleet can do on Pakistani Navy or its bases.

Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations.

 

[ares]

The scenario you said is only possible if PAF is destroyed or damage to 50% of its air crafts.

PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.

They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.

Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.

Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.

Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations.

What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?
Babur is a LACM with terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.

 

[Basel]

PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.

They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.

Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.

Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.

You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.

I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.

PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.

They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.

Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.

Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.



What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?
Babur is a LACM terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.

Einstein everything is not announced, I can't confirm its induction but rumors are that it is operational at least with one sub and it is not Augustas, but I can't confirm it.

 

[ares]

You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.

I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.

Not much has changed with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.

PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to inflict token damage against Indian Navy.

It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.

Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.

Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.

You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.

I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.



Einstein everything is not announced, I can't confirm its induction but rumors are that it is operational at least with one sub and it is not Augustas, but I can't confirm it.

Well you are the genius, who is basing his argument on rumours , come back with this argument, when you conclusive proof of its induction or at least testing.

 

[Mitro]

All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.

Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.

In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .

PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.

They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.

Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.

Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.



What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?
Babur is a LACM terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.

 

[Basel]

Not much has with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.

PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to token damage against Indian Navy.

It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.

Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.

Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.

PN fleet is not obsolete as F-22Ps and other surface assets are new and have modern systems on board, 30 JF-17s are requested by PN to be provided for that air cover and strike role so it will be addressed too.

1971 PN don't even knew about AShM now they are NCW capable fighting force so they have changed a lot, and subs are not their primary defensive weapons, its their MPAs which will provide data to other assets to launch strikes if they could not engage them.

Not much has changed with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.

PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to inflict token damage against Indian Navy.

It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.

Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.

Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.



Well you are the genius, who is basing his argument on rumours , come back with this argument, when you conclusive proof of its induction or at least testing.

There are initially rumors which eventually become reality in Pakistan.

 

[Cheetah786]

How many times, do I have to tell you pakistanies. Indian weapons are deadly and your weapons are useless against them. If you were to ask the indians how would they defend themselves from Chinese CX1 (same thing as brahmos) they will say no problem, this this and that will take care of that ,but nothing can stop Brahmos cause it is named brahmos not CX1.

 

[monitor]

I am not expert but reading the expert opinion in the previous thread i think to defend self from Brahmos PN has two option first try to strike first at the attacking ship and aircraft

Question


Brahmos is not almighty it can be destroyed if not easily than at least their is probability above average. our ships have one of the best point defense CIWS Type 730B which are tested u can see them on live leak videos. Point defense is extremely underrated defense system which IMHO actually should be considered most reliable defense system for any ship.
OK don't get me completely Anti brahmos. Brahmos will give Pakistan Navy very less chance IMHO max 10 seconds after it reaches the final stage which is after terminal stage. But for CIWS 10 seconds is a good time to reactive with at least 5-6 times burst shot. and these High RPM that is around 5000 R/MIN they can be devastating for any missile.

For a walk through lets design a scenario.
single F22p with 2 CIWS TYPE 730B ready for any attack. A Brahmos coming at it at the speed for lets say max 3 mach. Even if Type 730B has chance two fire 2 separate burst shots for 0.2 seconds. A single burst shots fire exactly 15+ rounds each of bore 30mm with kinectic energy at ~1100m/s the probablity of even a single 30 mm round hit could be greater than 70%. Now if 2 burst shots means 30 rounds. My point is the brahmos has one advantage that is enemy has less reaction time while Point defense has to act fastly. with todays Computing system it can be achieved by Ciws.

Further Brahmos uses sea skimming I am pretty sure with the weather and tides in sea the sea skimming altitude of 5m max could be less favorable in real time test so the missile will have to re adjust its momentum every second to prevent surface hit in sea. that will hamper its radar avoiding technique for repeatation.
I am no scientist but My view to brahmos is that a cruise missile which has advantage one and only prospect that is given enemy less reaction time.

PN has a better advantage too that is its CM 400 AKG for which currently there is no Defense system for INDIAN navy. Point defense can have but very very less reaction time than in scenario of Brahmos and pn ship point defense.

To counter that they have this

The Kashtan is a ship-based gun/missile weapon system designed to engage Mach 2 anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, bombs, aircraft and surface targets .

If you can destroy brahmos with your type730 CIWS they can too. buth both side will face some destruction due to proximity of attcking missile in very close to ship .

 

[ares]

PN fleet is not obsolete as F-22Ps and other surface assets are new and have modern systems on board, 30 JF-17s are requested by PN to be provided for that air cover and strike role so it will be addressed too.

Lets consider Pakistan Navy's surface fleet

5 Amazon class frigates..3200 tonnes (designated as destroyers in Pakistan Navy)...aluminium superstructure..dismal performance in Falklands war ..second hand.. built in 1971 to 1974...ie 40 yrs old.

1 OHP class frigate...4100 tonnes...built in 1978 ..second hand..34 yrs old.

4 F-22P ..2500 tonnes....built in 2009..does not even a single state of the art weapon, air defence is pathetic, can only be used for point defence against aircrafts...6 Km range
SSM system on board is obsolete by modern standards, only 120 Km range.

As of now, Pakistan has just single squadron of Mirage 5s for maritime strike role..and only 50 JF-17s in all.

1971 PN don't even knew about AShM now they are NCW capable fighting force so they have changed a lot, and subs are not their primary defensive weapons, its their MPAs which will provide data to other assets to launch strikes if they could not engage them.

How incompetent, do you think Pakistan Navy is? They very well knew about ASHMs ..after all Egypt had sunk and Israeli destroyer in 1967, using the very same missile and they very well knew about Indian acquisition of these missile boats..few months prior to war.
Network Centric warfare is not restricted Pakistan.

Pakistan MPA will be more than neutralised by IN air arm, after all It has

45 Mig 29 Ks
11 sea harriers
radar pickets helicopters..Ka -31 AEWs.

and Haven't even included IAF air assets ear marked for maritime strike yet.

There are initially rumors which eventually become reality in Pakistan.

When and if these rumors become a reality, then you can present this argument.

 

[Basel]

Lets consider Pakistan Navy's surface fleet

5 Amazon class frigates..3200 tonnes (designated as destroyers in Pakistan Navy)...aluminium superstructure..dismal performance in Falklands war ..second hand.. built in 1971 to 1974...ie 40 yrs old.

1 OHP class frigate...4100 tonnes...built in 1978 ..second hand..34 yrs old.

4 F-22P ..2500 tonnes....built in 2009..does not even a single state of the art weapon, air defence is pathetic, can only be used for point defence against aircrafts...6 Km range
SSM system on board is obsolete by modern standards, only 120 Km range.

As of now, Pakistan has just single squadron of Mirage 5s for maritime strike role..and only 50 JF-17s in all.



How incompetent, do you think Pakistan Navy is? They very well knew about ASHMs ..after all Egypt had sunk and Israeli destroyer in 1967, using the very same missile and they very well knew about Indian acquisition of these missile boats..few months prior to war.
Network Centric warfare is not restricted Pakistan.

Pakistan MPA will be more than neutralised by IN air arm, after all It has

45 Mig 29 Ks
11 sea harriers
radar pickets helicopters..Ka -31 AEWs.

and Haven't even included IAF air assets ear marked for maritime strike yet.



When and if these rumors become a reality, then you can present this argument.

Type 21 ships are only point defense ships now their weapons have been removed and they are waiting for decommissioning.

Only OHP is used ship with PN now.

F-22P's SSM can hit target beyond 180km so please forget 120km max range of missiles of PN ships its old thing and F-22Ps are defensive ships not main offensive ships but they may support offensive ops in certain situations, their air defense is not good but they can hit upto 25km and 12 km for supersonic CMs.

PN did not had AShM missiles and they have not seen Missile boats as it was new to them when IN used them in 1971.

JF-17s can carry vast range of weapons which even our F-16s can't carry and that is why they will be very important part of PAF/PN maritime strike role.

Mig-29K will be potent threat but current ACC can't launch all 30 jet to attack or defend and here PAF can send mix of fighter jets to take care of them.

When I say that Pakistan now have NCW capability it never meant that India don't have it means that with this capability Pakistan can use its forces to maximum extent and making sure that enemy can't sneak in to attack.

PN P-3 will be supported by PAF AWACS and fighter jets so not easy to go after them.

 

[ares]

All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.

IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.

Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.

Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.

Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.

RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.

An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.

In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .

Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.

But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.

Type 21 ships are only point defense ships now their weapons have been removed and they are waiting for decommissioning.

Only OHP is used ship with PN now.

F-22P's SSM can hit target beyond 180km so please forget 120km max range of missiles of PN ships its old thing and F-22Ps are defensive ships not main offensive ships but they may support offensive ops in certain situations, their air defense is not good but they can hit upto 25km and 12 km for supersonic CMs.

PN did not had AShM missiles and they have not seen Missile boats as it was new to them when IN used them in 1971.

JF-17s can carry vast range of weapons which even our F-16s can't carry and that is why they will be very important part of PAF/PN maritime strike role.

Mig-29K will be potent threat but current ACC can't launch all 30 jet to attack or defend and here PAF can send mix of fighter jets to take care of them.

When I say that Pakistan now have NCW capability it never meant that India don't have it means that with this capability Pakistan can use its forces to maximum extent and making sure that enemy can't sneak in to attack.

PN P-3 will be supported by PAF AWACS and fighter jets so not easy to go after them.

F-22 P is equipped with C-802 A 120 Km range and not CM-802 AKG of 180 Km range,

FM-90 SAM deployed on F-22P is a copy of cortale SAM designed by france in 1960s.
It has 12km range against aircrafts and no proven ability against supersonic AShMs.

JF-17 is light aircraft and with very short range, it is not designed to fight air battles against enemy carrier fleets hundreds of miles from home base.

Well Mig -29 is only one the fighter of Indian navy in an air battle against Pakistan..as said previously.
As oppose to 1-2 squadron of JF-17 in future..Indian navy will has.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.

And 46 Tejas MK 2 in future.

 

[Basel]

IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.

Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.



Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.

RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.

An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.


Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.

But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.



F-22 P is equipped with C-802 A 120 Km range and not CM-802 AKG of 180 Km range,

FM-90 SAM deployed on F-22P is a copy of cortale SAM designed by france in 1960s.
It has 12km range against aircrafts and no proven ability against supersonic AShMs.

JF-17 is light aircraft and with very short range, it is not designed to fight air battles against enemy carrier fleets hundreds of miles from home base.

Well Mig -29 is only one the fighter of Indian navy in an air battle against Pakistan..as said previously.
As oppose to 1-2 squadron of JF-17 in future..Indian navy will has.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.

And 46 Tejas MK 2 in future.

Have you visited F-22P?? I have, so stop talking stupid assumption about it.

JF-17s wings have been strengthened and it will have RD-93MA which will allow it to carry more load to more range due to better performance of engine and with IFR it will be able to go after IN's CBG.

 

[Mitro]

As size of pakistan is small and if they are defending they have the upper hand and net centric only improve their ability .there will be no surprices as their awacs can locate ship,aircraft carrier and tank regimant from 300km and more and can direct asset where needed.

IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.

To implement cold start doctrine india don't have infrastructure and attack regimant are located far from border where pakistan can implement fast deployment then india and we all know what happen when india try to move attack regiment to border and pakistan human intelligent is better .

Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.

Operation trident was very good and well operated i don't know why pakistan can't do the same with lots of cruise and ballistic missile with minimum risk.

Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.

if that is correct then why india is wasting it time in developing nirbhay

RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.

They already have operation Cm400akg and Raad

An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.

imagine what they can do with more modern fighter and weapon system to their disposal.

Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.

like pakistan mirage iaf harriers and jaguar are useless in this modern warfare only mig 29 k and su -30 mki are good
But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.

 

[ni8mare]

First the short range makes it harder for brahmos when future war will be fought with awacs so it will be not easy to come closer to PN Frigate .
To come closer to PN frigate indian navy has to pass their first line of defence i.e Subs .
The range is 290 km so the indian navy is not going to fired the missile from maximum distance so they have to come closer around 250 or may be 200 km range in this range PN frigate can also target indian navy vessel.
Brahmos is very easily detectable because of big IR signature
1) Fn90 can easily destroy brahmos with detection range of 25km and homing range of 20 km with 2.3 mach speed.
2)Type 730 CIWs detection range 20km and operating range 3km
3)electronic jammer and flares

we do know that brahmos is 300+km .............what ever
ok lets agree with you .............
now consider this when PN do same ..........means PN use AShm will IN will able to defend or IN will be in the bottom of the sea?

save some dollars and build toilet

Toilet facilities — a luxury for most Pakistanis – The Express Tribune
Over 43 million people in Pakistan defecate in the open - thenews.com.pk

PAF can hit key areas which will hamper ops against Pakistan and PN will use SLCM to take out long distance targets like Vizag etc. although they may not be needed to attack.

same will be done by india which will hamper pakistans
btw .....you said this

And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.

so it will be very hard for slcm to pass rader

Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations.

same will be done to pakistans asset

All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.

so we dont have NCW...........

Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.

and we also dont have sow ............

In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .

and then we also dont have 2 sq of migs

 

[The SC]

And how would India defend itself against the chinese Brahmos Equivalent in the Pakistani arsenal?