How can Pakistan have a robust and free foreign policy?

[vi-va]

So China too included in that?

C'mon dude on this thread let us talk among ourselves. The moment you bots open your mouth it's like I'm going through a Soviet mind reprogramming session. You can find a different thread to tell us Pakistanis how good Iron Brother is. I am requesting you.

Since when China call herself developed countries?

 

[313ghazi]

I wish to invite @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @GriffinsRule @fatman17 @Zarvan and all the others whom I highly respect.

To discuss how we can have a foreign/economic/defense policy where we do not make someone our "Abba G". Like India has done. It has had a Soviet tilt for sure, but has managed the West very well. Now recently leveraging it's Israeli connection, India has made successful forays into the MENA region.

So how can we have a robust foreign policy where we not just limit ourselves to US, EU, China. And we don't make any of them our abba.

Some of the Iron Brother types on here make me cringe slightly. Yes, China was our "Iron Brother" but it was also a developing country. Now it is almost a supreme power where U.S was in 2000s. And in future I certainly can foresee China making "do more" demands a la U.S.A from us that we wouldn't want to fulfill. Hence, Iron Brother could easily become Iron Danda.

So what should be the future of Pakistan foreign policy??

There are two ways.

1. You have a free policy and accept any negative consequences that come with it.
2. You are able to sustain yourself economically and technologically so that when you have a free foreign policy, you don't feel the negative consequences.

There is a middle ground to be had between the two where you live in both worlds for a bit, but our leadership is too weak to do that and our people are too fractured and their values are at face level only.

Take this French ambassador drama for example.

- Expelling the French ambassador would have had limited negative impact on Pakistan. We don't have a high trade volume with France, we don't have a large expat community in France, we don't rely on France for military tech. Yes we might have seen some issues with French influence in FATF and IMF, but it's not like they're on our side anyway right now. We would have faced diplomatic flack from the EU. Our government doesn't have the courage to face that.

HOWEVER - our awam, including our protesting Mullahs, don't have the fortitude to face long term negative impacts either. Assume for a minute we did kick off a diplomatic storm, the EU sided with France, curbed imports from Pakistan, restricted travel for Pakistani's, reduced investment (Companies like Nestle, Telenor). There would be less profits for people who traded with them, jobs would be lots, some businesses might close, students who were going to univerisity in the EU would have the door shut on them. Do you think this awam would accept that squeeze? They'd whine like b1tches looking for magical quick fixes.

I remember years ago when the Iraq invasion happened around the world Muslim countries started boycotting American products. Iran made Mecca Cola i think, there was Qibla cola, a few others. In the UK Pakistani shops stocked both side by side. People bought the new Muslim colas - a few years down the line, we're all back on coke and pepsi. The same thing happened with a blasphemy episode with the Danish. I remember Lurpak butter was no longer stocked. A few years later - its back. White western liberals are able to stick to BDS better than the vast majority of Muslims can to basic luxury goods.

Forging your own path requires facing fire - we don't have the courage to do that.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

@waz bro is there any way we Pakistanis could discuss this topic amongst ourselves without Indo/Chinese bots?

Or na??

There are two ways.

1. You have a free policy and accept any negative consequences that come with it.
2. You are able to sustain yourself economically and technologically so that when you have a free foreign policy, you don't feel the negative consequences.

I think 3rdly it also matters a lot to have clout. Where if a group of nations is out to get you. You can then lean on these group of nations for support right?

 

[vi-va]

@waz bro is there any way we Pakistanis could discuss this topic amongst ourselves without Indo/Chinese bots?

Or na??

I think 3rdly it also matters a lot to have clout. Where if a group of nations is out to get you. You can then lean on these group of nations for support right?

I quit. go ahead.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I quit. go ahead.

Thank You so much I appreciate it.

 

[newb3e]

So there needs to be genuine rebuilding and working new laws right?

Because since Bhutto all we have seen is a game of musical chairs and these tin pot dictators whether mil or civ kicking the can down street. For someone else to deal with the problem.

exactly! accountability woh sindh may boltay hain na bhaal safai honi chayeh!

pehlay wardi ko latkao then judges then politicians!

 

[waz]

@waz bro is there any way we Pakistanis could discuss this topic amongst ourselves without Indo/Chinese bots?

Or na??

I think 3rdly it also matters a lot to have clout. Where if a group of nations is out to get you. You can then lean on these group of nations for support right?

Yes bro I'll ask Indian and Chinese posters to refrain from commenting.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I also think that there are so many areas within Pakistan that we have not tapped into. Like KP(tribal areas and remote mountain areas), Balochistan and Sindh. Balochistan is remote and trapped by zameendars/warlords/Saeen culture. Sindh is not that remote and is held down by Saeen culture as well.

KP(remote mountain areas and Tribal belt) don't have Saeen culture that much. Very little. Their only saving grace at the moment seems to be Afghan Transit Trade and Tourism.

All of these areas are under threat to nose dive into some form of conflict or another.

I think we should work on providing more accessibility to these areas, more water to these areas, etc.

If U.S can turn deserts into Vegas and L.A. We can surely work on Balochistan and Thar too. If the Alps despite tough challenging terrain can be developed so can we try and develop our North.

Soviets had a population resettlement programme to settle areas that were remote and struggling. We could look into something similar that is combined with Silicone valley like initiatives.

Human resource is key as well. I think it has become an existential threat for Pakistan to figure out how to make our dangar qoum into decent educated human beings with a balance of deen and dunya. And to eliminate divide between government school right wing radicals. And Private expensive, gora school left wing radicals.

Imagine. I started from Foreign policy and I discussed economy and society in one post. That is because our problems are on that broad of a spectrum. All due to no one wanted to deal with this. Everyone in Pakistan just wants/wanted to be done with their "afsari" tenure and then retire in either London, U.S or Dubai(if you are politician or big shot). Or some officer colony if you are govt servant.

Yes bro I'll ask Indian and Chinese posters to refrain from commenting.

Thanks dude.

 

[313ghazi]

@waz bro is there any way we Pakistanis could discuss this topic amongst ourselves without Indo/Chinese bots?

Or na??

I think 3rdly it also matters a lot to have clout. Where if a group of nations is out to get you. You can then lean on these group of nations for support right?

Clout is just another way of accessing resources, whether they be manpower, military, economic. You are right allies help. The United States of America is practically a continent. The European Union is a continent. China and India both have a billion+ people, the Chinese especially are getting major productivity from that mass of people.

I have always been an adcovate for Muslim countries working together in an EU form to have clout. We have a common religious identity we could build around. However the leaderships of our countries are all greedy people, unwilling to loosen their grip on power to benefit their collective populations.

Forget the whole Muslim world, take Afghanistan and us. Large parts of our countries share ethnicity, we share culture, we share language and religion, we have similar tribal setups in large parts of our countries. If we worked together we'd benefit each other - but we never will. We could provide them with security and infrastructure development, in the future we could utilise their mineral resources to create wealth for our nations. Unfortunately they don't trust us, we don't trust them and besides - we suck at developing our own potential, let alone anyone elses. Who in their right mind would trust Pakistan to do right by them?

I also think that there are so many areas within Pakistan that we have not tapped into. Like KP(tribal areas and remote mountain areas), Balochistan and Sindh. Balochistan is remote and trapped by zameendars/warlords/Saeen culture. Sindh is not that remote and is held down by Saeen culture as well.

KP(remote mountain areas and Tribal belt) don't have Saeen culture that much. Very little. Their only saving grace at the moment seems to be Afghan Transit Trade and Tourism.

All of these areas are under threat to nose dive into some form of conflict or another.

I think we should work on providing more accessibility to these areas, more water to these areas, etc.

If U.S can turn deserts into Vegas and L.A. We can surely work on Balochistan and Thar too. If the Alps despite tough challenging terrain can be developed so can we try and develop our North.

Soviets had a population resettlement programme to settle areas that were remote and struggling. We could look into something similar that is combined with Silicone valley like initiatives.

Human resource is key as well. I think it has become an existential threat for Pakistan to figure out how to make our dangar qoum into decent educated human beings with a balance of deen and dunya. And to eliminate divide between government school right wing radicals. And Private expensive, gora school left wing radicals.

Imagine. I started from Foreign policy and I discussed economy and society in one post. That is because our problems are on that broad of a spectrum. All due to no one wanted to deal with this. Everyone in Pakistan just wants/wanted to be done with their "afsari" tenure and then retire in either London, U.S or Dubai(if you are politician or big shot). Or some officer colony if you are govt servant.

Thanks dude.

We should be doing all of these things but we're a fractured society led by little greedy men. They are in power to make money and please their ego's not to build our nation. Imagine moving 20 million Punjabis into Balochistan, they'd be describing it as ethnic cleansing!

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

However the leaderships of our countries are all greedy people, unwilling to loosen their grip on power to benefit their collective populations.

If you remove these installed leaders. And the racist Arabs/Iranis/Turks i.e the nationalist/ethno fascist ones. The rest all our populations recognize muslim brotherhood and will work together I am sure. But I could see that happening 70s-90s. Now present world order rewards sheer self interest I feel.

 

[RoadRunner401]

Mr @Ahmet Pasha most important thing one can do when writing or carving a new direction is to take advice from different people and then write it. Your idea of shutting down others to take advice From selected few shows you have no real interest in the actual discussion you want like-minded people to give the answers you will like.

One of The biggest problems Pakistan faces right now is a "friendly" Arab country interfering in our eternal matters with complete impunity. They kill extremists in their own country while promote and use them in ours for personal gains...

just for argument sake What do you think Hazarat Zaravan will advise on how to deal with it?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Clout is just another way of accessing resources, whether they be manpower, military, economic. You are right allies help. The United States of America is practically a continent. The European Union is a continent. China and India both have a billion+ people, the Chinese especially are getting major productivity from that mass of people.

I have always been an adcovate for Muslim countries working together in an EU form to have clout. We have a common religious identity we could build around. However the leaderships of our countries are all greedy people, unwilling to loosen their grip on power to benefit their collective populations.

Forget the whole Muslim world, take Afghanistan and us. Large parts of our countries share ethnicity, we share culture, we share language and religion, we have similar tribal setups in large parts of our countries. If we worked together we'd benefit each other - but we never will. We could provide them with security and infrastructure development, in the future we could utilise their mineral resources to create wealth for our nations. Unfortunately they don't trust us, we don't trust them and besides - we suck at developing our own potential, let alone anyone elses. Who in their right mind would trust Pakistan to do right by them?


We should be doing all of these things but we're a fractured society led by little greedy men. They are in power to make money and please their ego's not to build our nation. Imagine moving 20 million Punjabis into Balochistan, they'd be describing it as ethnic cleansing!

On a separate note with the Taliban in power I feel we could diplomatically negotiate to take the Wakhan Corridor. We should at least try. This way we can get a direct entry way to Central Asia. Without having to go through China or Afghanistan.

Mr @Ahmet Pasha most important thing one can do when writing or carving a new direction is to take advice from different people and then write it. Your idea of shutting down others to take advice From selected few shows you have no real interest in the actual discussion you want like-minded people to give the answers you will like.

One of The biggest problems Pakistan faces right now is a "friendly" Arab country interfering in our eternal matters with complete impunity. They kill extremists in their own country while promote and use them in ours for personal gains...

just for argument sake What do you think Hazarat Zaravan will advise on how to deal with it?

As long as you fly the green and white you are welcome to participate. Unless you're a false flagger.

All Pakistanis don't think alike. We all have different bviews and can contribute to the discussion in different ways.

 

[Zarvan]

I wish to invite @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @GriffinsRule @fatman17 @Zarvan and all the others whom I highly respect.

To discuss how we can have a foreign/economic/defense policy where we do not make someone our "Abba G". Like India has done. It has had a Soviet tilt for sure, but has managed the West very well. Now recently leveraging it's Israeli connection, India has made successful forays into the MENA region.

So how can we have a robust foreign policy where we not just limit ourselves to US, EU, China. And we don't make any of them our abba.

Some of the Iron Brother types on here make me cringe slightly. Yes, China was our "Iron Brother" but it was also a developing country. Now it is almost a supreme power where U.S was in 2000s. And in future I certainly can foresee China making "do more" demands a la U.S.A from us that we wouldn't want to fulfill. Hence, Iron Brother could easily become Iron Danda.

So what should be the future of Pakistan foreign policy??

Without a strong economy you can't have a free robust foreign policy. You have to build your economy the moment you managed to do progress INSHALLAH at rate of between 8 to 10 % consecutively for 10 to 15 years. You would have free foreign policy and very strong defense.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Everyone is saying strong economy but equally important is long term planning. Pakistanis are too short term orientated this needs to change, it will be a long list of things to do something like this:
1- Economy.
2- Long Term Planning (taking into account population growth etc)
3- Education.
4- Removing Corruption.
5- Improve Healthcare.
6- Improve Agriculture.
7- Improve Animal Husbandry.
8- Invest in a military that is not reliant on a single big country (USA,China, Russia)

Most of these can be achieved by automation

 

[JamD]

I wish to invite @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @GriffinsRule @fatman17 @Zarvan and all the others whom I highly respect.

To discuss how we can have a foreign/economic/defense policy where we do not make someone our "Abba G". Like India has done. It has had a Soviet tilt for sure, but has managed the West very well. Now recently leveraging it's Israeli connection, India has made successful forays into the MENA region.

So how can we have a robust foreign policy where we not just limit ourselves to US, EU, China. And we don't make any of them our abba.

Some of the Iron Brother types on here make me cringe slightly. Yes, China was our "Iron Brother" but it was also a developing country. Now it is almost a supreme power where U.S was in 2000s. And in future I certainly can foresee China making "do more" demands a la U.S.A from us that we wouldn't want to fulfill. Hence, Iron Brother could easily become Iron Danda.

So what should be the future of Pakistan foreign policy??

Let me just say that we have taken much more abbu G positions detrimental to our interests than India ever has. Perhaps pre 2000 this is merely down to their circumstance (like they don't border Afghanistan for example). But post 2000 the reason is clear: economy.

And the lazy but correct answer for us is also economy. All rights can be wrongs, all wrongs can be write, as long as you're rich (while maintaining a reasonably robust military). We clearly have things we want to do with our military that are mostly limited by our economy. So "it's the economy, stupid!"