How Afghanistani Gov behavior has changed in the last 2 weeks

[Menace2Society]

No 'overt' involvement inside Afghanistan even for Fazullah, we should not set any 'example of hot pursuit for any other player to be followed in this region'

OBL is a different case not every nation is US not every target is Osama ....

A 10 year terrorist campaign where 50,000 Pakistanis have died, billions lost in revenue, airports attacked, military installations attacked. Country is now in state of war, its having to reconquer its own territory.

No every nation is not US but not every nation has not had to endure this. These are exceptional circumstances.

When Nato leave at the end of the year it will create a vacuum and if terrorist bases are allowed to operate near Pak borders then prepare for another blow back.

If PA took action now and killed of TTP leadership and destroyed their bases it would minimize the blow back. Any sensible nation would do this.

Afghanistan are not a brother nation, they are the modern day barbarians. They need at least 50 years to civilize. From now till then they will either be in a state of civil war or foreign occupation. Lets not worry about them.

Secure the border, no mans land 2 miles into Afghanistan, 24/7 sniper watch with drone surveillance. Attack bases in Kunar and Nooristan. Make it public knowledge of the destruction and impose ourselves on them till they understand consequences. Once their families and comrades start dieing they will understand what it means to go to war with one of the largest armies in the world.

Too soft Pak has been, too forgiving, countries like that eventually disappear off the map. And for what, good PR?

 

[Bearwithclaws]

Haqqani etc. can run back and forth across the border. it depends if the local population in Afghanistan or Pakistan gives them space to operate

Sir, well any movement can be picked up by the intelligence. I just hope no selective elimination is done for it would send a very bad signal to both Afghanistan & India.

 

[HRK]

A 10 year terrorist campaign where 50,000 Pakistanis have died, billions lost in revenue, airports attacked, military installations attacked. Country is now in state of war, its having to reconquer its own territory.

No every nation is not US but not every nation has not had to endure this. These are exceptional circumstances.

When Nato leave at the end of the year it will create a vacuum and if terrorist bases are allowed to operate near Pak borders then prepare for another blow back.

If PA took action now and killed of TTP leadership and destroyed their bases it would minimize the blow back. Any sensible nation would do this.

Afghanistan are not a brother nation, they are the modern day barbarians. They need at least 50 years to civilize. From now till then they will either be in a state of civil war or foreign occupation. Lets not worry about them.

Secure the border, no mans land 2 miles into Afghanistan, 24/7 sniper watch with drone surveillance. Attack bases in Kunar and Nooristan. Make it public knowledge of the destruction and impose ourselves on them till they understand consequences. Once their families and comrades start dieing they will understand what it means to go to war with one of the largest armies in the world.

Too soft Pak has been, too forgiving, countries like that eventually disappear off the map. And for what, good PR?

cooldown buddy ...& read my post again .... specially ' ' part

hope you know what conciseness mean .....

 

[F.O.X]

There is a age old saying " Jis ki lathi os ki bhains " it applies to Afg perfectly , before this PA was not allowed to use their full power , and our enemies tool it as a sign of our weakness , this time the scenario is totally different, PA has been given a free hand, and you can see the results of that . Afg has realized that and have changed their tone respectively .

 

[FaujHistorian]

Sir, well any movement can be picked up by the intelligence. I just hope no selective elimination is done for it would send a very bad signal to both Afghanistan & India.

It will be wise to keep references to India out of this debate.

This will be good for this thread and also for the region.

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

No 'overt' involvement inside Afghanistan even for Fazullah, we should not set any 'example of hot pursuit for any other player to be followed in this region'

OBL is a different case not every nation is US not every target is Osama ....

On the contrary I propose we push past the Durand line and establish a buffer zone by illegally occupying the bordering Afghan provinces of Kunar, Nuristan, Nangarhar, Badhankhsan and Lowgar. We make the tribals our own, which they are, and we also pre-empt the call for a greater Pashtunistan by dividing and holding their areas. We'll have America's blessings under the garb of the war on the TTP and the Haqqani network and we'll manage the flak coming from Kabul - by simply giving them false assurances. It may appear colonial and brutal in the short-term but those Pashtuns who we'll Annex will, in the long-run, lean towards the economic prosperity which Pakistan has to offer and distance themselves from the turmoil and eternal hostilities which, unfortunately, appears to be the fate of Afghanistan.

Pakistan was meant for the pashtuns too, and they seriously need to stop trying to get away from it! There is no redemption in this stricken and ravaged region, save under the cool green and white shade of the Pakistani flag.

 

[FaujHistorian]

On the contrary I propose we push past the Durand line and establish a buffer zone by illegally occupying the bordering Afghan provinces of Kunar, Nuristan, Nangarhar, Badhankhsan and Lowgar. We make the tribals our own, which they are, and we also pre-empt the call for a greater Pashtunistan by dividing and holding their areas. We'll have America's blessings under the garb of the war on the TTP and the Haqqani network and we'll manage the flak coming from Kabul - by simply giving them false assurances. It may appear colonial and brutal in the short-term but those Pashtuns who we'll Annex will, in the long-run, lean towards the economic prosperity which Pakistan has to offer and distance themselves from the turmoil and eternal hostilities which, unfortunately, appears to be the fate of Afghanistan.

Pakistan was meant for the pashtuns too, and they seriously need to stop trying to get away from it! There is no redemption in this stricken and ravaged region, save under the cool green and white shade of the Pakistani flag.

While this sounds very "super-powerish", it needs a lot of work over next 20-30 years within Pakistani side of the border. Only then we'll have billions of dollars needed to maintain such posture.

Hope you understand the pre-conditions.


It is much better to attract Afghanistanis to our stance using "threat of power" than actually using it.


Hope you understand.

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

While this sounds very "super-powerish", it needs a lot of work over next 20-30 years within Pakistani side of the border. Only then we'll have billions of dollars needed to maintain such posture.

Hope you understand the pre-conditions.

It is much better to attract Afghanistanis to our stance using "threat of power" than actually using it.

Hope you understand.

Of course I do. As the old adage goes, 'Rome was not built in a day'.

In the meantime we'll go with threat of power but I seriously hope our army holds the border this time. A massive walled fortification spanning certain parts of the Pak-Afgan border are also the need of the hour.

China built a 21,000 km wall in ancient times that crosses some of the most hostile ranges in the region!

Israel is also focusing its energies on the 700 kms Israeli-West-Bank barrier.

I'm sure Pakistan can afford to plug the most accessible areas of the mountainous passes along the 2,000 kms Durand Line. I don't understand why the central government never chalks out a plan to that effect. It's not like we expect it to be completed in less than a year. It's a long-term, phased project the economic benefit of which will manifest itself in the long-run. For the sake of avoiding expenditure on concrete and steal beams, I'm ready to accept fencing and barbed-wire bearing the likes of the LOC too! (Electrified preferably, but that's asking for too much, lol)

 

[FaujHistorian]

Of course I do. As the old adage goes, 'Rome was not built in a day'.

In the meantime we'll go with threat of power but I seriously hope our army holds the border this time. A massive walled fortification spanning the certain parts of the Pak-Afgan border are also the need of the hour.

China built a 21,000 km wall in ancient times that crosses some of the most hostile ranges in the region!

Israel is also focusing its energies on the 700 kms Israeli-West-Bank barrier.

I'm sure Pakistan can afford to plug the most accessible areas of the mountains passes along the 2,000 kms Durand Line. I don't understand why the central government never chalks out a plan to that effect. It's not like we expect it to be completed in less than a year. It's a long-term, phased project the economic benefit of which will manifest itself in the long-run. For the sake of avoiding expenditure on concrete and steal beams, I'm ready to accept fencing and barbed-wire bearing the likes of the LOC too! (Electrified preferably, but that's asking for too much, lol)

At this stage a cantonment in NWA is planned.

this catonement and few forts on the borders will do.


The examples you gave are excellent.

But the rest of the nation has to work hard as kind and gentle global citizen to earn dollars (like Chinese, S Koreans, and Indians etc).

Otherwise no walls can be built as the billions needed aren't there.

 

[That Guy]

I completely disagree, the Afghan government and military have not changed their behavior at all, in fact, I'd say they've gotten even more hostile these last few weeks.

Of course I do. As the old adage goes, 'Rome was not built in a day'.

In the meantime we'll go with threat of power but I seriously hope our army holds the border this time. A massive walled fortification spanning certain parts of the Pak-Afgan border are also the need of the hour.

China built a 21,000 km wall in ancient times that crosses some of the most hostile ranges in the region!

Israel is also focusing its energies on the 700 kms Israeli-West-Bank barrier.

I'm sure Pakistan can afford to plug the most accessible areas of the mountainous passes along the 2,000 kms Durand Line. I don't understand why the central government never chalks out a plan to that effect. It's not like we expect it to be completed in less than a year. It's a long-term, phased project the economic benefit of which will manifest itself in the long-run. For the sake of avoiding expenditure on concrete and steal beams, I'm ready to accept fencing and barbed-wire bearing the likes of the LOC too! (Electrified preferably, but that's asking for too much, lol)

And who's going to pay for it?

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

I completely disagree, the Afghan government and military have not changed their behavior at all, in fact, I'd say they've gotten even more hostile these last few weeks.


And who's going to pay for it?

The people of Pakistan. Depending on the type of construction, it'll put us back a maximum estimated 3 billion dollars over 20 years. An estimated 150 million dollars a year. Worth the investment.

Here's an interesting read on the cost-benefit ratio of the Isreali-West Bank Barrier.

Background & Overview of Israel's Security Fence | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[FaujHistorian]

The people of Pakistan. Depending on the type of construction, it'll put us back a maximum estimated 3 billion dollars over 20 years. An estimated 150 million dollars a year. Worth the investment.

Here's an interesting read on the cost-benefit ratio of the Isreali-West Bank Barrier.

Background & Overview of Israel's Security Fence | Jewish Virtual Library

though Israel is not a good comparison.

on one side of the wall, people wanted the wall to be build and they had money and power to do that.

On the other side of the wall, people opposed the wall, but they did not have power to stop it.


In case of FATA, local people who will live on our side of the wall, do not want the wall to be built.

 

[That Guy]

The people of Pakistan. Depending on the type of construction, it'll put us back a maximum estimated 3 billion dollars over 20 years. An estimated 150 million dollars a year. Worth the investment.

Here's an interesting read on the cost-benefit ratio of the Isreali-West Bank Barrier.

Background & Overview of Israel's Security Fence | Jewish Virtual Library

$3 billion? Who told you that? From what I know, and Aeronaut can probably verify this, the cost is over $10 billion dollars for the completion of the project.

Whether or not it's worth the investment is not the question here, I would love to get a wall erected in the Durand line, what I have an issue is that you're making it sound like it's so easy. Pakistan doesn't have the money to do what you're suggesting, it's as simple as that.

 

[farhan_9909]

This is probably the best operation ever conducted since 2003-04.

But we need to have security like this for this decade atleast.

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

$3 billion? Who told you that? From what I know, and Aeronaut can probably verify this, the cost is over $10 billion dollars for the completion of the project.

Whether or not it's worth the investment is not the question here, I would love to get a wall erected in the Durand line, what I have an issue is that you're making it sound like it's so easy. Pakistan doesn't have the money to do what you're suggesting, it's as simple as that.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic, my friend. Our current budget for 2014-2015 is Rs. 4.3 trillion i.e. $43 billion. Earmarking 150 million a year from this budget would be like a drop in the ocean. It's not about having the money or not having the money, we have the money - for the wall at least. It's the political will to construct it which we lack. Like @FaujHistorian correctly pointed out, the people of FATA have family on both sides of the wall and may not approve of our "peace-fence". Let's not forget all the rallies and dharnas which would also ensue.

Also, as far as the costs go, there has been no feasibility study on the cost of such a project. $3 Billion dollars was a conservative estimate based on the construction cost of the Israel-West Bank barrier for two prime reasons, it was designed to be impenetrable and it's still under construction.