Honouring faith and secularism in the armed forces :Men who fight together must pray together

[Mentee]

no scholar has the right to classify someone as non-Muslim

Only if he defies the Primary Pillar of Islam , Which is,
The testimony of faith with conviction, “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur Rasoolu Allah.”

means “There is no true god (deity) but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of Almighty.” The first part, “There is no true god but Allah,” means that none has the right to be worshipped but God alone, and that God has neither partner nor son. This testimony of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which should be said with conviction in order to convert to Islam

Edit: A Hindu or any non Muslim is no authority on how to interpret Islam except the Muslims them selves!

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Only if he defies the Primary Pillar of Islam , Which is,
The testimony of faith with conviction, “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur Rasoolu Allah.”

means “There is no true god (deity) but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of Almighty.” The first part, “There is no true god but Allah,” means that none has the right to be worshipped but God alone, and that God has neither partner nor son. This testimony of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which should be said with conviction in order to convert to Islam

Edit: A Hindu or any non Muslim is no authority on how to interpret Islam except the Muslims them selves!

I totally endorse your views.That's how the Muslims in the sub continent managed to preserve their religion & ethos.Had they accepted what Lt.Gen Hasnain did , who is now being hailed by the Indian posters & reviled by the Pakistani posters , there is a very good chance the Muslims of the sub continent would end up as another sect of Hinduism.Something like the Meos of Mewat , which horrified Mohammed Ilyas enough to launch the Tableeghi Jamaat movement .

You see that's precisely what Brahminism encouraged when they expanded throughout the lengths & breadths of the sub continent , encountering people with varied beliefs ( animists , mother goddess cults , nature worshippers , ancestor worshippers , etc .) faced with the popularity of Shramanic religions & the rapidly declining authority of the Vedas.

They metamorphosed / evolved from a monotheistic faith to a pan theistic one, inventing , assimilating , creating , fusing elaborate mythologies into the Vedic fold in order to accommodate these varied people .It's a very simplistic reductionist narration of how the Vedic religion got gradually converted into what we now know as Puranic Hinduism while retaining the primacy of Brahmins in the evolving order.

Muslims have & will maintain their exclusiveness in the sub continent through their belligerence .Whether it is the Indian Muslims ( if you don't believe me , watch with great interest how the drama over triple talaq unfolds over the next few months) or Pakistanis vis a vis India.That's the only way they know .How much will this benefit them is a topic for another thread.However , I think, the result is foregone conclusion , in both the cases.

But if Lt.Gen Hasnain is a kafir for committing kuffr , then you , Sir , are a takfiri.

 

[Mentee]

I totally endorse your views.That's how the Muslims in the sub continent managed to preserve their religion & ethos.Had they accepted what Lt.Gen Hasnain did , who is now being hailed by the Indian posters & reviled by the Pakistani posters , there is a very good chance the Muslims of the sub continent would end up as another sect of Hinduism.Something like the Meos of Mewat , which horrified Mohammed Ilyas enough to launch the Tableeghi Jamaat movement .

You see that's precisely what Brahminism encouraged when they expanded throughout the lengths & breadths of the sub continent , encountering people with varied beliefs ( animists , mother goddess cults , nature worshippers , ancestor worshippers , etc .) faced with the popularity of Shramanic religions & the rapidly declining authority of the Vedas.

They metamorphosed / evolved from a monotheistic faith to a pan theistic one, inventing , assimilating , creating , fusing elaborate mythologies into the Vedic fold in order to accommodate these varied people .It's a very simplistic reductionist narration of how the Vedic religion got gradually converted into what we now know as Puranic Hinduism while retaining the primacy of Brahmins in the evolving order.

Muslims have & will maintain their exclusiveness in the sub continent through their belligerence .Whether it is the Indian Muslims ( if you don't believe me , watch with great interest how the drama over triple talaq unfolds over the next few months) or Pakistanis vis a vis India.That's the only way they know .How much will this benefit them is a topic for another thread.However , I think, the result is foregone conclusion , in both the cases.

But if Lt.Gen Hasnain is a kafir for committing kuffr , then you , Sir , are a takfiri.

When a man himself says he did a certain thing than how come I became a takfiri? Did I instigate or kill anyone? Which is utterly an UnIslamic act.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

When a man himself says he did a certain thing than how come I became a takfiri? Did I instigate or kill anyone? Which is utterly an UnIslamic act.

You called him a kafir without using the word.You've already labelled his act as kuffr.what else remains ?

 

[Nilgiri]

That's what make Islam unique.

Not really, that is just a continuation of the dogma structure from the Abrahamic religions.

Plenty of strains within Hinduism that have such similar structures too. But we can challenge ours quite easily and it is recommended to do so in many places.

It does not change its core principles just to patronize a certain group of people . So accept it as whole or simply walk away.

How does Hinduism change its core principles? That is not what I was saying at all....given its sole core principle is the pursuit of absolute truth. If the vedas were revealed as word of god, then god himself in the nasadiya sukta is saying, dont take what I have said for granted, find it out for yourself. This is for example why Hinduism has no issue at all with Science and what it has discovered like evolution, cosmology, biology, geology that are in complete opposition to abrahamic dogma about creation.

 

[wiseone2]

Only if he defies the Primary Pillar of Islam , Which is,
The testimony of faith with conviction, “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur Rasoolu Allah.”

means “There is no true god (deity) but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of Almighty.” The first part, “There is no true god but Allah,” means that none has the right to be worshipped but God alone, and that God has neither partner nor son. This testimony of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which should be said with conviction in order to convert to Islam

Edit: A Hindu or any non Muslim is no authority on how to interpret Islam except the Muslims them selves!

What you are telling me Islam is subjective religion that can be interpreted any way ?

When a man himself says he did a certain thing than how come I became a takfiri? Did I instigate or kill anyone? Which is utterly an UnIslamic act.

people use their interpretation of Islam to settle scores and to manipulate governments. i may add Pakistan is the one of the worst offenders in that regard.

I totally endorse your views.That's how the Muslims in the sub continent managed to preserve their religion & ethos.Had they accepted what Lt.Gen Hasnain did , who is now being hailed by the Indian posters & reviled by the Pakistani posters , there is a very good chance the Muslims of the sub continent would end up as another sect of Hinduism.Something like the Meos of Mewat , which horrified Mohammed Ilyas enough to launch the Tableeghi Jamaat movement .

Being a Hindu or Muslim might be important for some people. For some people being a human being is more important. For some people being an great army officer is important. No one has the right what is important and what is not important for others.

I do not expect Pakistanis who use government authority to enforce their views on others to understand. Pakistanis find it okay to classify groups like Ahmadiyyas as non-Muslim.

 

[Russell]

But you ARE judging while pretending to not judge.

No one asked you what would you would/could do, yet you insist on sharing that piece of personal information. You did so with the express intention of showing what the good general did was 'wrong' in your view.

Only you did not have the courage to claim it was wrong unlike others here who did have the courage to speak up their mind.

Not at all. The whole point of this was, as a Muslim what the general did to cultivate unity.

As a Muslim I gave a personal perspective of what I have done in my own life and wouldn't do placed in the same situation. What my personal sensilibilities would allow me to do.

I thought it better to give a personal anecdote than to think of this in the abstract.

The general feels differently and did so. I didn't endorse or criticize his actions and furthermore I offered NO opinion because there are those on here who would consider even what I did to be unacceptable.

So, who am I to judge him in this particular instance? And disagreement does not automatically equal judgement.

 

[Tshering22]

Does Syed Ata have an explanation for the fact why India does not respect the muslims the way loyalist muslims like him respect it. Why are muslims less than 4% in the army when their population is 14%. Why is the percentage even less among officers. Things don't add up. No matter how much we muslims enslave ourselves, sell ourselves to India we will always be the outcasts, the terrorists and unwanted people.

We need to give up this worship of Bharat and form a united front against Hindutvas. That is our need. Not kissing bharti butt.

Because joining Indian Army is voluntary and there are no reservations in the armed forces.

If they don't wish to join military, it is their choice.

Why force someone to join?

 

[haviZsultan]

Because joining Indian Army is voluntary and there are no reservations in the armed forces.

If they don't wish to join military, it is their choice.

Why force someone to join?

Indian army does not represent the nation both ethnically and in the religious sense. For example Punjabis or Sikhs are less than 2% of the Indian population but 15-16% of the total army percentage. Similarly Tamils and Mallu's have virtually nil representation in the army. In the religious percentage we have already talked about. Sikhs and Hindus dominate the army.

The only thing good is that nobody is either interested in this in India nor talks about it.

 

[Nilgiri]

Similarly Tamils and Mallu's have virtually nil representation in the army.

Come again?

@Levina can tell you firsthand just how wrong this perception is.

 

[haviZsultan]

Come again?

@Levina can tell you firsthand just how wrong this perception is.

Percentages are hard to come by but its a reality most Indians know. The good thing, as I said, about India is nobody is as ethnically chauvinistic as Pakistanis are. I have never heard Indians complain about the unequal representation of Punjabis, Rajastanis, Gujratis and UP-walas as in Pakistan. But then the army is not representative of the nation and its ethnic diversity. North India is over represented with states like Punjab at the top.

 

[Tshering22]

Indian army does not represent the nation both ethnically and in the religious sense. For example Punjabis or Sikhs are less than 2% of the Indian population but 15-16% of the total army percentage. Similarly Tamils and Mallu's have virtually nil representation in the army. In the religious percentage we have already talked about. Sikhs and Hindus dominate the army.

The only thing good is that nobody is either interested in this in India nor talks about it.

You are still living in the British era.

We don't carry the same tradition of 'martial races' that the British did.

The military here preaches equality and practises it to the core.

Joining is not on the basis of state, language, caste or anything else.

Border states tend to have more people joining the army than non-border states. It is just the way it is.

For example, Garhwal, Kumaon, Bhutia, Sherpa, Gurkha, Punjabi, Rajasthanis, Kashmiris, Dogras, Ladakhis and Arunachalis tend to join military more than the rest of the states.

However, that doesn't mean people from rest of the country don't join.

Sure, we have the same regimental names that originated in the British Indian Military; but people are assigned irrespective of their states or languages.

If you meet the physical and mental standards, you are good to go.

 

[Levina]

Come again?

@Levina can tell you firsthand just how wrong this perception is.

Aye aye sir.

Similarly Tamils and Mallu's have virtually nil representation in the army.

Martyrs in recent attacks:
Mumbai attack: Major Unni Krishnan, NSG, Indian army, happened to be a malayali.
Pathankot attack: Lt col Niranjan, bomb squad, NSG, Indian army, also happened to be a malayali.
But hey, I'm sure those men put their country before their state. Proud of them!
Having spent 17years of my life inside army cantonments, I know for a fact that my state is well represented in Indian army when you consider the tiny size of my state.

 

[Nilgiri]

Aye aye sir.




Martyrs in recent attacks:
Mumbai attack: Major Unni Krishnan, NSG, Indian army, happened to be a malayali.
Pathankot attack: Lt col Niranjan, bomb squad, NSG, Indian army, also happened to be a malayali.
But hey, I'm sure those men put their country before their state. Proud of them!
Having spent 17years of my life inside army cantonments, I know for a fact that my state is well represented in Indian army when you consider the tiny size of my state.

I actually know firsthand "over-representation" of mallus (and I think Bengalis and some others too) especially in elements of the AirForce and other sections of military.

TN definitely is somewhat under-represented relative to population....we dont quite have same prevalence of nair warrior clan in our society ....but still not "virtually nil" Madras Sappers anyone?

The Thambis all around Indian army do our country proud too!