HIT new project of Armored Fighting Vehicle

[Signalian]

What would be the benefit of this?
We already have S&T coys for transporting inf bns. Adding a truck coy to an SIB would only increase the load on the CO. He would then be performing the dual roles of CO of an inf bn as well as S&T. It would become hectic especially when it would come to maint and service. The annual inspections and veh service would become his key priorities and may compromise the core role of the inf bn. This was also the reason why armd regts were reduced from 70+ tanks to 44; so that the commander can focus more on operational deployment than on logistics and maintenance.
However I do support motorisation of the weapon coy of SIBs. If the 12 ATGMs, AGLs and even mortars of SIBs are based on lightly armoured vehs, then this would give SIB a great punch and will almost be equal to a LAT coy. An Inf div will have 9× wpn coys and GOC can use them as LAT coys as well, especially wpn coys of reserve bdes.
Couple these with atleast 1×Armd bde, 5-7 arty regts( all 155mm in future), 1×LAT regt(atleast); and our IDs will themselves become a very potent fighting force against mech formations as well.
Thus, no commander on either side will want his force to directly confront the enemy without prior attrition by indirect means. And for that arty will be the major source. So, I believe that as less as we discuss it, arty is going to be the dominant army in a future Indo-Pak conflict. The side which is able to achieve better concentration of arty firepower will be able ot punch holes which can then be exploited by mech forces.
But with concentration of arty, comes the problem of logistics. Since our conflict will be short and intense, arty supplies will be required at shortest possible notice. Hence this would require many forward supply depots. But then these would become prime targets for enemy arty and IAF. So counter battery fire as well as suppression of IAF bases will be of prime importance, both of which will be done by arty along with PAF.

1. Rapid deployment in battlefield and can act as QRF.
2. No wait time for S&T transport to arrive and offloads burden of S&T battalion.
3. Carry and deploy heavy weapons and related ammo where S&T trucks cannot reach conserving troops physical strength.
4. Affordable convoy protection/rear guard/screening force through mobility but average firepower.
5. Carry out squad and platoon based Ops backed by heavier weapon cover fire deployed on 4x4.
6. Faster casualty evac and unit re-supply for light weapons.
7. Unit can switch roles between foot infantry and motorized Infantry to rotate between conventional war deployment to COIN role.
8. Gives flexibility to Battalion's CO for ops while unit's MT officer gets the responsibility for POL tasks. Not intense maintenance prone compared to MBTs.
9. EX-R&S/LAT units can assist with training.
10. Gives ability to carry MATVs and smaller drones for recon tasks.
11. An advance concept from WW2 Willys jeep towards up armored HMMWV, though battalion gets swing role.
12. Battalion gets ability to get attached with armored formation if required as it can keep up with mechanized and armored formations.
13. Perfect for rapid deployment in short conflict and concentration of firepower.
14. Can avoid direct fire contact with enemy unless unavoidable.
15. MRAP ability helps in protection of troops during ambushes and encountering minefield as well as protection from small arms fire of enemy troops . Lowers troop casualty rate for Battalion.

 

[The Terminator]

All paramilitary forces should be under one command with one name like National Guards or something. And should be provided latest equipment. This is a lame excuse that we don't have funds actually we don't care about foot soldiers. We are loosing experienced soldiers and replacing them with new recruits. That's it. We have funds for fighters, tanks and warships but we don't have funds for MRAP. Army generals are commanding FC and Lavies so who will ask fund from MOI did they ask them for? After every few years we listen that HIT is working on a new project but what about the previous one? Is it just a tactics to get funds for corruption?
I think that after successful attacks on forces and killing them will boost the terrorists moral. That's why they are attacking again and again but if our guys are well protected and have proper backup they will suppress their attacks which eventually affect the terrorist. But i feel that those rag tag terrorists have better plan then our well educated generals.

Generals can ignore the body count of the PBI unless they are in danger.

 

[Sifar zero]

Lol Mengshi is not designed on civil chassis. The mengshi we are acquiring is the 3rd gen menghsi which the Chinese have reached after decades of work. The 2nd gen mengshi was equivalent to Armoured humvee , the 3rd gen one has better but limited mine protection than 2nd gen one.

Does our one have a V shaped hull??

 

[Oldman1]

RPG rarely but for mines quite often.

Then MRAP would be the way to go. MRAPs are not immune to RPGs unless you put slat armor on it.

 

[Inception-06]

What would be the benefit of this?
We already have S&T coys for transporting inf bns. Adding a truck coy to an SIB would only increase the load on the CO. He would then be performing the dual roles of CO of an inf bn as well as S&T. It would become hectic especially when it would come to maint and service. The annual inspections and veh service would become his key priorities and may compromise the core role of the inf bn. This was also the reason why armd regts were reduced from 70+ tanks to 44; so that the commander can focus more on operational deployment than on logistics and maintenance.
However I do support motorisation of the weapon coy of SIBs. If the 12 ATGMs, AGLs and even mortars of SIBs are based on lightly armoured vehs, then this would give SIB a great punch and will almost be equal to a LAT coy. An Inf div will have 9× wpn coys and GOC can use them as LAT coys as well, especially wpn coys of reserve bdes.
Couple these with atleast 1×Armd bde, 5-7 arty regts( all 155mm in future), 1×LAT regt(atleast); and our IDs will themselves become a very potent fighting force against mech formations as well.
Thus, no commander on either side will want his force to directly confront the enemy without prior attrition by indirect means. And for that arty will be the major source. So, I believe that as less as we discuss it, arty is going to be the dominant army in a future Indo-Pak conflict. The side which is able to achieve better concentration of arty firepower will be able ot punch holes which can then be exploited by mech forces.
But with concentration of arty, comes the problem of logistics. Since our conflict will be short and intense, arty supplies will be required at shortest possible notice. Hence this would require many forward supply depots. But then these would become prime targets for enemy arty and IAF. So counter battery fire as well as suppression of IAF bases will be of prime importance, both of which will be done by arty along with PAF.

What are SIBS AND S&T coys?

 

[Metal 0-1]

View attachment 874043


Here it is. HIT up armoring of Toyota's pickup trucks.
The resulting product is physical manifestation of economic conditions of Pakistan.

 

[Raja Porus]

What are SIBS AND S&T coys?

SIB: Standard infantry battalion (foot inf of PA)
S&T: Supply and Transport companies. They have trucks for transporting units and supplies.

 

[Signalian]

Generals can ignore the body count of the PBI unless they are in danger.

It is naive of you to think that an officer reaching the rank of general doesn't consider himself in danger or is not affected by body count of his troops.

its is very easy to sit outside and make comments based on own limited thought pattern.

 

[Signalian]

SIB: Standard infantry battalion (foot inf of PA)
S&T: Supply and Transport companies. They have trucks for transporting units and supplies.

The Light Motorized Infantry Company

https://mca-marines.org/wp-content/uploads/0520-Light-Motorized-Infantry-Company.pdf

 

[Zarvan]

IMO neither the Army nor the FC/Rangers need large numbers of MRAPs. The usefulness of MRAPs is literally only useful for COIN. While we've had insurgency problems, it has never flared to the point of needing to buy 1,000+ MRAPs. We should aim to pick up 2nd hand MRAPs for pennies on the dollar, not sink money into new ones.

If we need new vehicles, we should think about general-purpose 4x4 LAVs.

So, basically, a 9-10-ton vehicle with STANAG 4569 Level 2 or Level 3 protection. It won't necessarily excel in the specific areas of an MRAP, but a good 4x4 LAV could still offer better survivability and versatility in most scenarios than the up-armored Hilux. We can also use these LAVs as utility vehicles in conventional wars for troop transport, supply logistics, ATGM or MANPAD carriers, light ELINT vehicles, and so on.

If we had to sink money into locally manufacturing a vehicle, I'd rather it go into a 4x4 LAV that can serve us across many functions and justify a 1,000+ unit order. Tbh, when the U.S. said no to FMF/CSF for the F-16s and AH-1Zs, we should've asked if we could just pour that money into buying 2,000 to 3,000 JLTVs.

View attachment 874738

The size of area you face insurgency in requires MRAP and the thing in picture should be our aim. I mean developing something similar either with Turkey or China and producing them with TOT. Plus one MRAP of Ejder 4 x 4 size.

 

[farooqbhai007]

The size of area you face insurgency in requires MRAP and the thing in picture should be our aim. I mean developing something similar either with Turkey or China and producing them with TOT. Plus one MRAP of Ejder 4 x 4 size.

Problem not with mil but with people. Literally entire state has no industry , results in little to no jobs in current market but loads of unemployed people.

Pakistanis have loads of money but don't know where to invest it , currently every one who has money is investing in opening up a new housing society or investing in real estate , when asked why people arent investing in other industries they say there is too much of a risk as to if that business will even succeed or not. Mean while big downside is cities getting bigger with more societies while resource allocation remains same.

Example New isb airport was built and now every retard who has little bit of money is trying to build a housing society there , just see amount of new societies being built next to motorway starting section of isb-lhr road near isb airport. Another example Bholari airbase was built some retard opened up a housing society next to airbase.

This is what needs to be changed. Let Govt put a ban on real estate purchase and creating new societies for 5 years , while investigate societies already being built , confiscate those societies that are illegal and endorse setting up industries and give incentives for military industries , the people them selves will start investing in those industries. Then see how many companies come up with armored vehicle designs.
Current setups are doing best with what they can even HIT.

 

[Raja Porus]

1. Rapid deployment in battlefield and can act as QRF.
2. No wait time for S&T transport to arrive and offloads burden of S&T battalion.
3. Carry and deploy heavy weapons and related ammo where S&T trucks cannot reach conserving troops physical strength.
4. Affordable convoy protection/rear guard/screening force through mobility but average firepower.
5. Carry out squad and platoon based Ops backed by heavier weapon cover fire deployed on 4x4.
6. Faster casualty evac and unit re-supply for light weapons.
7. Unit can switch roles between foot infantry and motorized Infantry to rotate between conventional war deployment to COIN role.
8. Gives flexibility to Battalion's CO for ops while unit's MT officer gets the responsibility for POL tasks. Not intense maintenance prone compared to MBTs.
9. EX-R&S/LAT units can assist with training.
10. Gives ability to carry MATVs and smaller drones for recon tasks.
11. An advance concept from WW2 Willys jeep towards up armored HMMWV, though battalion gets swing role.
12. Battalion gets ability to get attached with armored formation if required as it can keep up with mechanized and armored formations.
13. Perfect for rapid deployment in short conflict and concentration of firepower.
14. Can avoid direct fire contact with enemy unless unavoidable.
15. MRAP ability helps in protection of troops during ambushes and encountering minefield as well as protection from small arms fire of enemy troops . Lowers troop casualty rate for Battalion.

I thought by motorisation you meant trucks not HMMWVs. For motorisation of Inf would require 12000+ armoured vehs and I have not included V, X corps and indp bdes.
Most of our SIBs are deployed with Central and Northern commands. There they will take up pre planned defensive positions based on water and terrain obstacles. Moreover in this region due to HUMINT, Satellites etc, surprise by secrecy will not be possible. Thus much redeployment will not be required unless the GOC is nervous (like in 65). All these moves will be completed after mobilisation and before the shooting war starts. Thus S&T is more than capable of handling such moves.
Also what will happen to the MRAPs after the SIB has taken positions/entrenched? Will the MRAPs remain in laager for the rest of the war? Wouldn't it he similar to using an MIB for a purely defensive task?
So why not spend on getting heavy IFVs for our mech inf which will form the main punch.

No wait time for S&T transport to arrive and offloads burden of S&T battalion.

S&T is one of the largest arms and is specifically raised for this purpose. Thus transporting troops is one of the prime functions of this arm apart from supplies.

EX-R&S/LAT units can assist with training

SIB and LAT have huge doctrinal difference. The former is for fighting pitched battles while the latter for skirmishes and hit and run tactics. Thus training and tactics of SIB must be different from that of LAT/MIB. However, LAT may help on training of Motorised R &S Coys *


*Motorised R &S Coys:
Instead of Motorising the whole Battalion, we can motorise its weapon company.
Wpn coy of PA has: 12×ATGMs, 12×HMG, 12× AGL and 15× Mortars (81mm).

So we can reorganise it into 4+1 platoons.

Structure of 1× R&S platoon:
Total men: 30
Total JLTV: 9, as follows:
-3×ATGM carriers
- 2×AGL carriers
- 4× Troop carriers (with 12.7mm), each carrying 6-8 Riflemen.

1 R&S Coy will have ×4 such platoons and,

Mortar Platoon ×1

Thus an SIB will have 36× JLTV in its R&S coy plus 4× JLTV with HQ for resupplying/evac etc.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Can we expect to see this at IDEAS next month?

 

[Sifar zero]

Can we expect to see this at IDEAS next month?

I hope so.

 

[Pakistan Ka Beta]

Good