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Historical Background of Pakistan and its People/Rarely part of India/IVC

1. Hate for Hinduism is a reality on PDF. I see numerous posts daily where people keep abusing Hindus , some are generous enough to spare Pakistani Hindus and use the term Indian Hindus. But don't say there is no hate for Hinduism here because it's enough of it here.

2. Where are all the Pakistani Hindus on Pdf? Yet to see one. We have numerous Indian Muslims here. I wish we had some Pakistani Hindus sharing their experience here too.

3. Pakistanis hating Hindus was only half portion of my post. The rest half is ignored by all of you again , very conveniently I guess. The ignorance of Hindu past. Even here on Pdf, I never saw any worthwhile discussion about the history of land that forms pakistan today.

Either you guys talk about the Indus Valley Civilization ( apparently because it makes you feel comfortable that they weren't Hindus ) or you guys talk about modern history directly. There is so much history in between that no one talks about.

Bhagat Singh , a hardcore secular person , should have been a role model in Pakistan. He hardly finds any mention here. So many things point toward an institutionalized hate for all things Hindu in Pakistan. Even the Sons of Soil have been forgotten. Not just the population, you sent your history into India too after partition.

We don't hate Hindus. Our Pakistani Hindus are our blood and we love them. They are sons of the soil and their loyalty is with us, and ours to them.

You are asking why Pakistanis don't view themselves and their history in relation to Hindus of India, the reason is because we are two separate civilizations as detailed above.

Furthermore, majority of Pakistan before acceptance of Islam was Buddhist. During Hindu-Buddhist Civil wars is when Islam was embraced by Buddhists.

Punjab, esp Rajputs like me, we were never Hindus in sense which Hindus of India are today. We were following a totally different kind of religion, it was more like Vedic one of ancient Aryans. There was no caste system, no ban on beef, and each tribe was loyal only to themselves (no concept of Bharat.) It was similar to idol worship in Babylon, Greece, Persia, Turkestan, and Arabia.

@Talwar e Pakistan @Taimur Khurram Are more educated on this subject than I.

I got my answer. You are blind by religion and have relegated your life to just that. You see everything form a religious angle. And most of the Pakistanis are just like that I believe ( from what I have learnt here. )

You say something like "preferring Muslim heros over Hindu heros" and don't even recognize the toxicity of this sentence.

What can I say ! I am even more proud of being a Hindu now. I have so many muslims idols ( singers , actors , ex president kalam saab and so on). Religion isn't everything for me and I am so proud of that. Thanks. We both have our answers now.

Why ride on a horse and carriage when cars are invented?

Why wear animal fur clothing when cotton clothing are much more comfortable?

History moves on. We humans adopt what is more beneficial to us, we progress to the future.
 
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Its true for not only me . Every muslim if he really is a muslim sees everything around him with the eye of islam everything a muslim does is with in the rules given to us in Quran.

You are right every muslim looks at life with only religious angle (eye) there is no other way for a muslim if indeed he is a muslim.

Our forefathers left hinduism for good. And we intend to stay away from it.

I am not here for soliciting you back to Hinduism. I don't care. So there is no need to stress on the fact that you intend to stay away from Hinduism. It's your choice. It doesn't affect me in any way of any one leaves or joins Hinduism.

Back to topic though. What is the NEED to see everything through a religious angle? Wouldn't it create unnecessary "Us vs Them" narrative ? Is human existence all about worshipping God?

Bhagat Singh died in 1931. He had no idea of the events to come. He was a staunch secular person. He died for his people. He died for you. Should he be dismissed just because he wasn't a Muslim?
 
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@Raghav_101 Please keep religious polemics out of this thread. We are discussing religion only in the historical context. Remember that religious discussion is banned.

This thread is in the Pakistan History subforum, remember that.

Back to topic though. What is the NEED to see everything through a religious angle?

This thread proves your notion false. This is a thread on the cultural and racial heritage of Pakistan. On Pakistan's uniqueness as a civilization.

Pakistan is much greater than just its Islamic identity. Narrowing it down to just that is a misrepresentation of facts.
 
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@Naofumi

Great discussion going on this thread. Please read it form first page till now.

Also, another food for thought:

qd1twew9hsx41.jpg


Source: ‘Ancient and Contemporary Pakistan’ by Afrasiab, 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini (not the food), was also born Ghandhara, near Peshawar, Taxila & present day Islamabad.

The Zero was also invented near Peshawar, in the village of Bakhshali, Mardan, KPK.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhshali_manuscript

Before the discovery of the Bakhshali manuscript, many Pakistanis, Indians and people from around the world, presumed that the zero was a "Indian invention" found in present day India.

Famous South Asian mathematician Brahmagupta was also born in either Multan, Punjab or Bhillamalla, Sindh.

Source: 100 Great Indians Through The Ages, p. 103, 1992 edH. N. Verma (an Indian historian or scholar?).

Found his book online:

upload_2020-5-12_16-7-49.png


@Raghav_101 You can take a look above too. I'll get to your posts in this thread also. :police:
 
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I am not here for soliciting you back to Hinduism. I don't care. So there is no need to stress on the fact that you intend to stay away from Hinduism. It's your choice. It doesn't affect me in any way of any one leaves or joins Hinduism.

Back to topic though. What is the NEED to see everything through a religious angle? Wouldn't it create unnecessary "Us vs Them" narrative ? Is human existence all about worshipping God?

Bhagat Singh died in 1931. He had no idea of the events to come. He was a staunch secular person. He died for his people. He died for you. Should he be dismissed just because he wasn't a Muslim?

You find it hard to digest because you look at religion a different way. Islam is even above religion. Religion is a small thing.

You will understand my perspective if you read the quran.

And once you understand it then you will know why was pakistan formed and what is islamic identity and why we look to islam for every matter small or big.

History can't he changed its here and written.

What we prefer is to remember good parts and not the dark ages when we used to be unguided or our forefathers.

Please read the Quran you will understand my point then.
 
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Its true for not only me . Every muslim if he really is a muslim sees everything around him with the eye of islam everything a muslim does is with in the rules given to us in Quran.

You are right every muslim looks at life with only religious angle (eye) there is no other way for a muslim if indeed he is a muslim.

Our forefathers left hinduism for good. And we intend to stay away from it.

Dear brother, let us not engage in religious debates on this thread. We are losing focus of the main point.

May Allah swt bless you for your insight.
 
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Why ride on a horse and carriage when cars are invented?

Why wear animal fur clothing when cotton clothing are much more comfortable?

History moves on. We humans adopt what is more beneficial to us, we progress to the future.


Very poor analogy my friend. Car and carriage are material objects. You can see it objectively. Religions are much more complicated than that.
Everyone prefers car now instead of carriage. If religions were just like that we would be seeing entire world converting to Islam. ( Never gonna happen, trust me ).

Your example itself is the problem. This sense of religious superiority. Except for religious leaders in any religion, you won't find the general public so involved in branding and flashing their religion everywhere.
 
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Dear brother, let us not engage in religious debates on this thread. We are losing focus of the main point.

May Allah swt bless you for your insight.


You take away religious debate and there is no reason for pakistan..

Pakistan ka matlab kya ? La ila ha illalah. It is not just a slogan.

You take away islam from pakistan then there is no need for Pakistan at all. We might as well join back into india and form a secular nation. Which cam even be more powerful than china or united states or russia.

We split india because of religion because of islam. You take that away there is nothing left.
 
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@Naofumi

Great discussion going on this thread. Please read it form first page till now.

Also, another food for thought:

qd1twew9hsx41.jpg


Source: ‘Ancient and Contemporary Pakistan’ by Afrasiab, 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini (not the food), was also born Ghandhara, near Peshawar, Taxila & present day Islamabad.

The Zero was also invented near Peshawar, in the village of Bakhshali, Mardan, KPK.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhshali_manuscript

Before the discovery of the Bakhshali manuscript, many Pakistanis, Indians and people from around the world, presumed that the zero was a "Indian invention" found in present day India.

Famous South Asian mathematician Brahmagupta was also born in either Multan, Punjab or Bhillamalla, Sindh.

Source: 100 Great Indians Through The Ages, p. 103, 1992 edH. N. Verma (an Indian historian or scholar?).

Found his book online:

View attachment 631924

@Raghav_101 You can take a look above too. I'll get to your posts in this thread also. :police:
Itachi brother. I never doubted these facts. I know that the present day pakistan was a cradle of civilization in South Asia. My point is simple , rather than few enlightened and knowledgeable people like you , it should be a general knowledge in Pakistan. Do common people in Pakistan know about this elaborate Hindu past? I guess not.

However the above few posts clarified my doubts that the religious angle has not only overshadowed but Eaten Away the history of Pakistan.
 
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Itachi brother. I never doubted these facts. I know that the present day pakistan was a cradle of civilization in South Asia. My point is simple , rather than few enlightened and knowledgeable people like you , it should be a general knowledge in Pakistan. Do common people in Pakistan know about this elaborate Hindu past? I guess not.

However the above few posts clarified my doubts that the religious angle has not only overshadowed but Eaten Away the history of Pakistan.

Everyone knows about their hindu past there is a family history.

And most if not all are proud of getting rid of it and joining muslim identity
 
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@Naofumi

Great discussion going on this thread. Please read it form first page till now.

Also, another food for thought:

qd1twew9hsx41.jpg


Source: ‘Ancient and Contemporary Pakistan’ by Afrasiab, 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini (not the food), was also born Ghandhara, near Peshawar, Taxila & present day Islamabad.

The Zero was also invented near Peshawar, in the village of Bakhshali, Mardan, KPK.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhshali_manuscript

Before the discovery of the Bakhshali manuscript, many Pakistanis, Indians and people from around the world, presumed that the zero was a "Indian invention" found in present day India.

Famous South Asian mathematician Brahmagupta was also born in either Multan, Punjab or Bhillamalla, Sindh.

Source: 100 Great Indians Through The Ages, p. 103, 1992 edH. N. Verma (an Indian historian or scholar?).

Found his book online:

View attachment 631924

@Raghav_101 You can take a look above too. I'll get to your posts in this thread also. :police:

Pakistan has a unique identity in and of itself due to its basis in the IVC, but also its historical part in Greek, Persian, Iranic, Afghan, Arab, and Turkic empires.

Pakistan is a result of all these various influences. Pakistan's languages, culture, dress, music, clothing, social mores, and philosophy of life is vibrant and as ancient as humanity itself.

quetta-march-22-2015-xinhua-pakistani-musicians-282328.jpg


Very poor analogy my friend. Car and carriage are material objects. You can see it objectively. Religions are much more complicated than that.
Everyone prefers car now instead of carriage. If religions were just like that we would be seeing entire world converting to Islam. ( Never gonna happen, trust me ).

Your example itself is the problem. This sense of religious superiority. Except for religious leaders in any religion, you won't find the general public so involved in branding and flashing their religion everywhere.

Stop derailing the thread.

You take away religious debate and there is no reason for pakistan..

Pakistan ka matlab kya ? La ila ha illalah. It is not just a slogan.

You take away islam from pakistan then there is no need for Pakistan at all. We might as well join back into india and form a secular nation. Which cam even be more powerful than china or united states or russia.

We split india because of religion because of islam. You take that away there is nothing left.

I agree with all your points. Let us stop replying to the troll and continue strengthening our knowledge of our history and culture.

Everyone knows about their hindu past there is a family history.

And most if not all are proud of getting rid of it and joining muslim identity

Brother, do you know anything of the ancient history of Kashmiri people? Maybe you can share your knowledge so that we may benefit.
 
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Pakistan has a unique identity in and of itself due to its basis in the IVC, but also its historical part in Greek, Persian, Iranic, Afghan, Arab, and Turkic empires.

Pakistan is a result of all these various influences. Pakistan's languages, culture, dress, music, clothing, social mores, and philosophy of life is vibrant and as ancient as humanity itself.

quetta-march-22-2015-xinhua-pakistani-musicians-282328.jpg




Stop derailing the thread.



I agree with all your points. Let us stop replying to the troll and continue strengthening our knowledge of our history and culture.



Brother, do you know anything of the ancient history of Kashmiri people? Maybe you can share your knowledge so that we may benefit.

My great grand father came from hijaz saudi saudi to sindh province east of river sindh , 700 years ago its written in family book. Sindh was east of river and the province was alot bigger than today's sindh it reached outskirts of mumbai back then.

3 of his brothers stayed in multan and kasur region and stayed there. 7 brothers all of them had came from hijaz . 3 stayed in multan and kasur region.

2 went into uzbekistan region it was a big country then all central asians were under one islamic flag.

One of them went to russian/chinese region of mogulistan (xinjiang).

My great grand father who i am son of stayed in Muzaffarbaad where i live.

We have a book which says sindh hand alot of hindus people of the desert Kashmir Muzaffarabad was part of a big kashmiri and tibetan state sikhs buddhist and hindus lived there in majority

My great grand fathers duty was to preach and give them message of quran. Even the british learnt about islam from him.

Back then it was a different time and people argue that its its historic books written in arabic and persian by my family fore fathers and hsotory can be changed.

Anyways kashmir was a very diverse land when they came with mostly buddist people and tibetans in north and muslims near gilgit region and jn azad kashmir region sikhs were in majority it is written .

They started trade and my grand father's father had 545 horse and ox carts which used to trade between muzaffarabad and srinagar and rawalpindi reguon later abbootabad too.

In last 300 years though most hindus and buddists became muslims as they read the quran in their own languages.


If the 1947-48 war didn't happen we muslims who were in over 80% majority would have joined Pakistan.

But before that wars started and its written that even if we wanted to protect minorities they were not safe as both sides were killing many people and revenge killings were common in all states.

I am not qualified to tell about kashmirz as they call us the arabs :P or parmi in kashmiri language parmi means foreigner... From 700 years still foreigners haha.


Anyways that was the past. These days still there are many sub cultures present in various valley's of kashmir all are unqiue with unique languages and dialects even though we are few we are diverse.

I have never been to indian occupied kashmir but father and fore fathers have been there back then it was just kashmir not Pakistani not indian. Just pricely state of kashmir.
 
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Itachi brother. I never doubted these facts. I know that the present day pakistan was a cradle of civilization in South Asia. My point is simple , rather than few enlightened and knowledgeable people like you , it should be a general knowledge in Pakistan. Do common people in Pakistan know about this elaborate Hindu past? I guess not.

However the above few posts clarified my doubts that the religious angle has not only overshadowed but Eaten Away the history of Pakistan.

Depends what your definition of "Hindu" or "Hinduism" is...

If you go far back enough, monotheism was and is still apparent within Hinduism. And Hinduism in itself is a foreign concept within South Asia.

Let me give you a brief history lesson.....I wrote most of the stuff in here already: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/implications-of-barli-inscription.661940/

Brief History Lesson:

Indus Valley Civilization, part of the earliest civilizations on planet Earth, I call them the Big 7:

a7d1ac64c2a07e07e92af7368c53bc3d.jpg


Depending on the book, article or the time period you look at, there can be anywhere from 6 to 8 major early civilizations. The Big 3 are Egypt, Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq, parts of Levant & Iran) & the IVC based in Pakistan and Northern India. The Big 3 were also the first to form in our current understanding of known world history.

Indus Valley Civilization (3300 - 1300 BCE):

Broken down into 3 phases....Early Harappan Phase (3300 - 2600 BCE), Mature Harappan Phase (2600 - 1900 BCE), and Late Harappan Phase (1900 - 1300 BCE).

civilt-c3-a0valleindomappa.png


^Shows all 3 phases.
IndusCivilizationTimeline.jpg


Then come the "Vedic Religions"....."religions" because that's what modern day Hinduism is... ;)


slide_1.jpg


Vedic Religions reigned in the Gangetic Plains while Buddhism was dominant in modern day Pakistan, evidence is such sites as Taxila, Ghandhara and the Buddha statues in Afghanistan.

Buddhism was suppressed throughout South Asia by the Hindus which is why it moved to China and South-East Asia.

Following the above timeline and the advent of Islam, people in the subcontinent started going back to monotheism. Yes, going back....which is why I said that monotheism existed within Hinduism (which is a fact you can look into) & has been there since time immemorial in many forms. Even our dear Chinese neighbors to the North had monotheism before they moved onto ancestor worshipping, and their religions.

upload_2020-4-17_18-49-12-png.624577


^Indian source.

India: An Archaeological History: Palaeolithic Beginnings to Early Historic Foundations. Dilip K. Chakrabarty (2009).

Fun Fact: Aramaic was the precursor to Arabic. It was spoken by Prophet Isa/Essa R.A., known in Christianity & Islam.

You can see I brought in a comprehensive viewpoint....neither overly secular or religious. Since no matter how much people try to deny it, religion does play a big part. It did in the Ancient World and so it does in the present day.

Being overly secular or religious is where most problems start. :enjoy:
 
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Great posts, brother. Indeed, IVC is an extension and successor state of the first human civilization, which was in Iraq (Babylon.)

You can see many examples of this influence in the statues, art, city structure, and religion of IVC.

This was particularly telling.

upload_2020-4-17_20-54-45-png.624586

Oxford history books & even our own Pakistani historians won't tell us that. :(

Effects of colonialism & inferiority complex I guess?
 
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