Hillary Clinton put in Hot Seat by Pakistani Media

[Seadog1]

You have swallowed the wrong tablet fed to you by our revered A_M. Whatever A_M means.
This is not uncharacterstic of the depth of the waters in which we paddle our boats.

The term 'Jewed' that is in question here does not refer to the people but their attitudes that we see so much in vogue all over the world and is a resultant of foriegn policy initiatives and in the selfish attitudes in dealing with others.

Of course it derives from a people ensconsed in the belief of their own superiority to the exclusion of all other beliefs and faiths that we also know as goyums. In other words, the Jews are'Gods chosen People'.

If we have read our Quran - it clearly takes this notion out of heads of the Jews superiority to all other people as pure baloney. There is no one who is superior, everyone is equal and has to be judged in accordance with his actions per the Furqan or the criterion, laid down.

Christ was Jewish to begin with and he was hounded and persecuted by the Jews - that later resulted in the
Jews own persecution at the hands of Christians in the later day crusades and Inquisitions, in which the Muslims sheltered and protected these same very Jews - who now under the Christian protection persecute and
terrorize the Muslims of today that we see so vividly.

If you have read Rabbi Akiva's wife thoughts to her husband, who lived a millenia before our times, it should make clear what makes this Jewish people tick.

I had expressed my own satisfaction to the War Professor for an enrichment of our English vocabulary thru such additions that convey a world of meaning in a single word.


Here u will find a couple of definition of the word goyim:

Means cattle. How the jews and the Zion master sees all non jews in particular whites. Said with contemption.
Those goyim will send troops to the middle east and fight a war for us or we'll call them anti semites.

1. A Hebrew word used in the Jewish Scriptures (a.k.a. the Old Testament). The word literally means "nations," and is always used within these scriptures to refer to the nations of the world. Significantly, within the Old Testament, Judah (the Jewish nation) itself is called a "goy."
2. In the Old Testament, the Jews were called to be a nation separate from the other nations, which were all Pagan. And so, colloquially, all non-Jewish nations came to be called "goyim" as in "the nations" from which the God of the Old Testament had called upon the Jews to separate themselves.
3. A word used by some Jews to refer to Gentiles (non-Jews). The word can have derogatory connotations, such as the word "black" when used to refer to a persons of African descent. It can be neutral or negative depending on the context and the intent of the speaker.

Have you ever noticed in muslims Islamic history it is full of wise and tolerant treatment of other religions under the rulership of Islamic governments. But it is understood that the proviso is that the other religions are subject of the superior Islamic faith.

This worked out very well for a long time in Palestine - much better relations between Arabs and Jews there than between Jews and Christians at the same time in Europe.

 

[parihaka]

okayyyy, some fatuous answers for fatuous questions

We're carrying out the biggest operation that this region has seen since 9/11 in that region. Surely just because our sovereignty is challenged by the Taliban, you don't assume that automatically gives you the right for a Free for all in that region?

We don't assume anything. Pakistan doesn't have sovereignty, that's why they're having to invade.

I find it laughable that the ISAF can even begin to mount a similar offensive as Rah-e-Nijat in the region even if we allowed them to. You and what army?

I find it tragic that the PA, ISI and GoP can't even prevent near daily attacks on the shopping malls of Peshwar.

What happened to Obama's surge? What was it? 8000 more men? for Afghanistan? You need to first control Afghanistan and then lecture us about Waziristan. Your pussyfooting on the Afghanistan surge is costing us the war as well.

Gosh this is a blast from the past, I can remember you saying nearly the exact things about the surge in Iraq. How did that work out for you? With the massive drops in civilian casualties, not too well I'd guess

By what Army?

I'd imagine the one that has been sitting in the middle of the desert in Iraq for the last five years. That and the Indians would want to get involved I dare say.
Not that I advocate such a thing, but were the GoP to have a brain-fart and actually follow the advice of fantasists like you, AGM and whoever the moron was that first advocated the idea of blockading the ISAF, the result would be inevitable. Or have you forgotten that the US continues to spend more than the rest of the world combined on 'defence'?

On whose economy?

The one that is growing by 3.5%, with the nazdaq reaching pre collapse highs already.
How's Dubai doing?

Don't talk silly. Pakistan's invasion is impossible!

Can't even be bothered with the rest. From the moment I first met you you've done nothing but offer up ****** propaganda.
Decrying every success, celebrating every failure, gloating over every civilian death in Iraq and Afghanistan as proof of the evil west, extolling the justifications for terrorism.

The people of the west have been trying to fix Afghanistan for the past eight years, and trying to help Pakistan for longer.

Meanwhile you sit safely in Dubai peddling propaganda, while true Pakistanis suffer and die at the hands of your heroes. The real irony is you consider yourself subtle and cunning, rather than understanding the innate politeness and forgiveness of your foes.

 

[Seadog1]

You have swallowed the wrong tablet fed to you by our revered A_M. Whatever A_M means.
This is not uncharacterstic of the depth of the waters in which we paddle our boats.

The term 'Jewed' that is in question here does not refer to the people but their attitudes that we see so much in vogue all over the world and is a resultant of foriegn policy initiatives and in the selfish attitudes in dealing with others.

Of course it derives from a people ensconsed in the belief of their own superiority to the exclusion of all other beliefs and faiths that we also know as goyums. In other words, the Jews are'Gods chosen People'.

If we have read our Quran - it clearly takes this notion out of heads of the Jews superiority to all other people as pure baloney. There is no one who is superior, everyone is equal and has to be judged in accordance with his actions per the Furqan or the criterion, laid down.

Christ was Jewish to begin with and he was hounded and persecuted by the Jews - that later resulted in the
Jews own persecution at the hands of Christians in the later day crusades and Inquisitions, in which the Muslims sheltered and protected these same very Jews - who now under the Christian protection persecute and
terrorize the Muslims of today that we see so vividly.

If you have read Rabbi Akiva's wife thoughts to her husband, who lived a millenia before our times, it should make clear what makes this Jewish people tick.

I had expressed my own satisfaction to the War Professor for an enrichment of our English vocabulary thru such additions that convey a world of meaning in a single word.


Here u will find a couple of definition of the word goyim:

Means cattle. How the jews and the Zion master sees all non jews in particular whites. Said with contemption.
Those goyim will send troops to the middle east and fight a war for us or we'll call them anti semites.

1. A Hebrew word used in the Jewish Scriptures (a.k.a. the Old Testament). The word literally means "nations," and is always used within these scriptures to refer to the nations of the world. Significantly, within the Old Testament, Judah (the Jewish nation) itself is called a "goy."
2. In the Old Testament, the Jews were called to be a nation separate from the other nations, which were all Pagan. And so, colloquially, all non-Jewish nations came to be called "goyim" as in "the nations" from which the God of the Old Testament had called upon the Jews to separate themselves.
3. A word used by some Jews to refer to Gentiles (non-Jews). The word can have derogatory connotations, such as the word "black" when used to refer to a persons of African descent. It can be neutral or negative depending on the context and the intent of the speaker.

Kind of like the Muslim word: Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning "rejecter" or "ingrate," also the term "Kuffar" the plural of the word "Kafir" is used to refer to peasants (أَعْجَبَ الْكُفَّارَ نَبَاتُه&#1615 Surah 57 Al-Hadid (Iron) Ayah 20;[2] as they till earth and "cover up" seeds. The term "Kufr" means "to cover up" this is why earth tillers are referred to as "Kuffar."

Didnt at one time most Kafirs have to pay a tax because they were non muslim. For example isnt there Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan that has put non muslims in prison for life for saying something against Islam but there is no law that prevents Muslims saying any thing against Christians or Jews....Lets be a little more even handed here.

 

[r3alist]

this defence forum is great, we end up arguing with indians and americans over important issues and can never discuss it with ourselves.


on balance this place is more helpful to everyone other than pakistani's, way to go huh?

 

[Awesome]

We don't assume anything. Pakistan doesn't have sovereignty, that's why they're having to invade.

Like Afghanistan? Dude, what you have in Afghanistan is not an invasion, its more of a landing party and Kabul is base camp. After THAT accomplishment in 8 years, you're going to overcome the Pak Army and then capture Waziristan? Nobody even in the US believes that to be a viable option, don't parrot the wishful thinking that we hear from tabloid trash like ToI.

I find it tragic that the PA, ISI and GoP can't even prevent near daily attacks on the shopping malls of Peshwar.

Big deal, we are unnerved by it. Its a price we have to pay for our mistakes in the past. It's not PA/ISI's incompetency thats causing it, if anyone wants to make a last ditched effort to make some bangs then they easily can pull it off in Pakistan. Again typical ignorant viewpoints from people who have no understanding about the sort of environment in Pakistan.

Gosh this is a blast from the past, I can remember you saying nearly the exact things about the surge in Iraq. How did that work out for you? With the massive drops in civilian casualties, not too well I'd guess

See again a weak man's argument. Gosh, I don't care about Iraq. Drop in civilian casualties? You guys got nearly 1 million people killed . Totally raped that country inside out... Sorry but we don't want Pakistan to end up like IRAQ! hahahaha, brilliant argument. You have just made my case. Letting you guys in, is equivalent to turning our country into a second Iraq.

I'd imagine the one that has been sitting in the middle of the desert in Iraq for the last five years. That and the Indians would want to get involved I dare say.

Indians aren't going to come fight your war. They know the price they'd have to pay for it. Remember you guys are sitting safely continents away and can't face any retaliation. India is our backyard.

Not that I advocate such a thing, but were the GoP to have a brain-fart and actually follow the advice of fantasists like you, AGM and whoever the moron was that first advocated the idea of blockading the ISAF, the result would be inevitable.

Look, the American might is not infinite. The ISAF is not our mamas that we have to listen to them . Any such option will proceed on the basis of fair trade. As long as we're paid for the services we provide there will be no stoppage of logistical supply. But that's not to say that anyone believes that if we don't give that aid to the ISAF they would launch an invasion.

Or have you forgotten that the US continues to spend more than the rest of the world combined on 'defence'?
The one that is growing by 3.5%, with the nazdaq reaching pre collapse highs already.

Try suggesting war again in the US and you'll find out. The 10% unemployed will be up in arms!

How's Dubai doing?

Still employed in Dubai

Can't even be bothered with the rest. From the moment I first met you you've done nothing but offer up ****** propaganda.

And there we go again, the infamous whine...

Decrying every success, celebrating every failure, gloating over every civilian death in Iraq and Afghanistan as proof of the evil west, extolling the justifications for terrorism.

The west's successes and failures are secondary to Pakistan's successes and failures. The only thing we want to see is you guys perform against the Taliban in Afghanistan. If you can't do it, step aside.

The people of the west have been trying to fix Afghanistan for the past eight years, and trying to help Pakistan for longer.

How? By sending in a surge of 5000, 8000 people? Wake me up when you match the number of troops we've committed to the war.

Meanwhile you sit safely in Dubai peddling propaganda, while true Pakistanis suffer and die at the hands of your heroes. The real irony is you consider yourself subtle and cunning, rather than understanding the innate politeness and forgiveness of your foes.

Please go write your diatribes in the forum dedicated to "Asim Aquil". Oh wait there is none and hence please brush up your feeble debating skills, whine a little less and talk on topic.

 

[Seadog1]

Like Afghanistan? Dude, what you have in Afghanistan is not an invasion, its more of a landing party and Kabul is base camp. After THAT accomplishment in 8 years, you're going to overcome the Pak Army and then capture Waziristan? Nobody even in the US believes that to be a viable option, don't parrot the wishful thinking that we hear from tabloid trash like ToI.


Big deal, we are unnerved by it. Its a price we have to pay for our mistakes in the past. It's not PA/ISI's incompetency thats causing it, if anyone wants to make a last ditched effort to make some bangs then they easily can pull it off in Pakistan. Again typical ignorant viewpoints from people who have no understanding about the sort of environment in Pakistan.


See again a weak man's argument. Gosh, I don't care about Iraq. Drop in civilian casualties? You guys got nearly 1 million people killed . Totally raped that country inside out... Sorry but we don't want Pakistan to end up like IRAQ! hahahaha, brilliant argument. You have just made my case. Letting you guys in, is equivalent to turning our country into a second Iraq.


Indians aren't going to come fight your war. They know the price they'd have to pay for it. Remember you guys are sitting safely continents away and can't face any retaliation. India is our backyard.



Look, the American might is not infinite. The ISAF is not our mamas that we have to listen to them . Any such option will proceed on the basis of fair trade. As long as we're paid for the services we provide there will be no stoppage of logistical supply. But that's not to say that anyone believes that if we don't give that aid to the ISAF they would launch an invasion.


Try suggesting war again in the US and you'll find out. The 10% unemployed will be up in arms!


Still employed in Dubai


And there we go again, the infamous whine...

The west's successes and failures are secondary to Pakistan's successes and failures. The only thing we want to see is you guys perform against the Taliban in Afghanistan. If you can't do it, step aside.


How? By sending in a surge of 5000, 8000 people? Wake me up when you match the number of troops we've committed to the war.


Please go write your diatribes in the forum dedicated to "Asim Aquil". Oh wait there is none and hence please brush up your feeble debating skills, whine a little less and talk on topic.

I dont see things all that bad in Iraq,, the USA went in and destroyed Iraqs Military,,,hung Saddam and excuted his sons and a number of the rest of the goverment in about 3 weeks with the lost of 150 soldiers something Iran could not do in 8.5 years and 750,000 lives lost. Then the USA lost 4000 more soldiers in the occupation over the next 7 years about 800 soldiers a year occupying a country of 45 million muslims. Now that the goverments replaced we are pulling out....the afganstan goverment could not even stand up to a few hundred americans befor it folded,,,,while I deplore the american lives lost it is necessary fight wars from time to time. Even if the USA pulled out and the taliban regained power we could go in an take them out again....prob the USA military is five times as strong as the military that the USA had in 2001. There has been some incredible developments in weapon technology since 911.

 

[Awesome]

I dont see things all that bad in Iraq,, the USA went in and destroyed Iraqs Military,,,hung Saddam and excuted his sons and a number of the rest of the goverment in about 3 weeks with the lost of 150 soldiers something Iran could not do in 8.5 years and 750,000 lives lost. Then the USA lost 4000 more soldiers in the occupation over the next 7 years about 800 soldiers a year occupying a country of 45 million muslims. Now that the goverments replaced we are pulling out....the afganstan goverment could not even stand up to a few hundred americans befor it folded,,,,while I deplore the american lives lost it is necessary fight wars from time to time. Even if the USA pulled out and the taliban regained power we could go in an take them out again....prob the USA military is five times as strong as the military that the USA had in 2001. There has been some incredible developments in weapon technology since 911.

So we should lose 750,000 Pakistani lives, destroy our entire infrastructure so that Americans can win in Pakistan? No thank you, we'll fight our own wars.

I don't get it, whats the big deal. We beat the TTP. Then we regain territorial control and when we have re-established the government's writ, we can significantly hurt AQ operations. Are you guys seriously arguing that our resources should be focused upon AQ and we should quit out of Rah-e-Nijat?

There is no question that AQ and all militants need to be defeated. But you go after their roots and the roots of their power is in the TTP. I'm guessing after Waziristan is recaptured, there would be only smaller operations by special forces.

 

[Seadog1]

So we should lose 750,000 Pakistani lives, destroy our entire infrastructure so that Americans can win in Pakistan? No thank you, we'll fight our own wars.

I don't get it, whats the big deal. We beat the TTP. Then we regain territorial control and when we have re-established the government's writ, we can significantly hurt AQ operations. Are you guys seriously arguing that our resources should be focused upon AQ and we should quit out of Rah-e-Nijat?

There is no question that AQ and all militants need to be defeated. But you go after their roots and the roots of their power is in the TTP. I'm guessing after Waziristan is recaptured, there would be only smaller operations by special forces.

Not sure where the 750,000 Pakistan Lives come in.....and in the end Pakistan will either defeat the Radicals, Taliban and Al Quada or they will defeat Pakistan...leaving Pakistan another N Korea,, banned and shunned by the rest of the world,,,

 

[Developereo]

Splendid! Where were you when Pakistan was in bed with US against India?

Ever since Ayub Khan's days (Friends Not Masters) we have known perfectly well that the US is not a true friend of Pakistan. There are very few true friends in politics. Even now, don't delude yourself that the US has any special affinity towards India, other than as part of the emerging anti-China strategy. The US knows that China is going to be it's main rival in this century, and is laying the groundwork for the upcoming showdown.

US needing Pakistan? Please, dont flatter yourselves too much!

Don't confuse Hollywood fantasies with reality. All the military might of the US is irrelevant if the human intel isn't there. The US is heavily dependent on Pakistan for on-the-ground intel. So far, almost all major AQ arrests or hits have been possible only with Pakistan's help.

So? Did you ever try to understand why? Or you really dont want to?

She is popular with Indians because she panders to their causes, even at the expense of American interests. The reference to D-Punjab was often used derogatarily by US commentators to point out the fact that she, like Bill, has been highly supportive of outsourcing American jobs to India -- in exchange for bribes, erm campaign contributions, of course.

Whats wrong with that? Somebody is giving you aid money on their terms - terms based on facts and evidences. Accept it or leave it.

The aid package is a contract between Pakistan and the US. For the US lawmakers to inject clauses in the KLB at the behest of, and pertaining to, India is unprofessional at best, and self-defeating at worst, given that the whole point of the bill was to win Pakistani hearts and minds. Once again, the US Congress demonstrated its incompetence by caving in to foreign interest groups.

Afghanistan wasn't a proxy battle ground forever, you made it one after you declared a sovereign nation as your "Strategic Depth".

That is historically inaccurate. Afghanistan had never truly accepted Pakistan's territorial integrity because of their claims on NWFP. India and Afghanistan shared a common agenda in that respect. The statements by Indira Gandhi and others are proof enough.

Reread the line again. I said "Desis" a slang term which includes all the inhabitants or people originating from the Indian sub-continent - including countries like Pakistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri-Lanka, not to forget India!!

You said, and I quote,

least of all, sorry to say, Pakistanis!

So its better to deny a woman her rights, bury women alive for expressing their thoughts? What kind of a sick fvck mind would condone that?

There is a difference between self-criticism and blatantly hating a foreign culture to which you decide to emigrate

I saw disapproval, not blatant hate, in that comment. Perhaps there is a larger context to that comment that I am unaware of.

People decide to join them because people like their "free society" which was unavailable to those in their home countries!

Not even close!

Except for refugees and asylum seekers, the overwhelming majority of third world immigration to the West is purely for economic reasons. People may say the right thing about loving freedom and all to pamper their new hosts' ego, but you and I both know that big shot desis in India/Pakistan live a life of luxury that most of us in the West can't even dream of.

And yet, after enjoying the privileges of such a free society, some got the gall to criticize them as being corrupt and immoral?

There is corruption and immorality in all cultures. I see such criticism as a sign of commitment and integration. It shows that the immigrant has made the new place their home and is engaged with it. After all, if you saw prostitution and drug dealing outside your window, you would probably ignore it if you were there temporarily, i.e. in a hotel, as opposed to if it was your own house.

If you want to practice what you had at home, stay put! Dont go around preaching morality to others when yours is barely threadbare!

You seem to be implying that Pakistani-Americans or Indian-Americans aren't "really" American and should be walking on eggshells, lest they offend their "hosts". By your logic, they shouldn't join political movements, or sign petitions for or against controversial issues.

I can assure you that most long-term expat desis feel 100% comfortable in their new country, and are fully involved in civic causes about which they feel strongly.

Wrong. Qsaark's comments are not acceptable as valid criticisms of American culture. The person looks at this culture through Pakistani society's glasses and that aint right!

Neither you nor I can speak for another person's motivations or rationale. I find it presumptuous of you to even attempt to do so.

As for Americans criticizing their culture,

Pakistani-Americans are Americans.

basically conservatives critize assimilation of foreigners. What do you have to say about that?

Assimilation goes both ways. Immigrants must accept the new country's ways and they also contribute to the diversity by bringing in their own traditions. That's why it's called a melting pot, not an acid pot that homogenizes everything into an indistinct glop.

You don't need to abandon your traditional values, but that does not give you the right to tout yours as being of superior morality than the local ones!

There is a cultural war going on in every country, especially between conservatives and liberals. Each side believes their values are superior. Social conservatives around the world will find much in common with similar minded immigrants from other countries. Ditto for liberals. There is no harm in finding common cause with like-minded people in your new home. In fact you would be welcomed by them.

Once again, you seem to be suffering from the belief that Pakistani-Americans or Indian-Americans aren't "really" Americans and should keep in their place and act "appropriately".

If you don't want to assimilate, why come here in the first place? Amish are Americans, born and brought up here. They have strange lifestyle. Nothing to do with immigrants.
Irrelevant point.

It is entirely relevant. Do you think the early Amish immigrants developed their way of life after coming to America?

Wrong again. Free societies are great because they promote "free thinking". Big difference buddy. There is no place for people with closed mindsets and such people are frowned upon and usually not welcome!

Well, that's a matter of definition. If an immigrant tries to clean his or her neighborhood of adult bookshops and nudie bars, because they feel these to be immoral, are they being closed minded or exercising their right to free speech?

Or would you advise them to just suck it up because that's just the way it is in their new home?

Didnt at one time most Kafirs have to pay a tax because they were non muslim.

Everything must be viewed in context. The custom in old times was for invading armies to slaughter the conquered peoples and be done with it. Compared to that, the Islamic (and Roman) way was far more benign, since it allowed the subjects to live their life as usual. Secondly, the tax was an income tax imposed on non-Muslims in lieu of the Muslim tax, zakaat, levied on Muslims.

If you are going to pretent to be a Pakistani Muslim, at least do your homework before posting crap.

 

[Seadog1]

Everything must be viewed in context. The custom in old times was for invading armies to slaughter the conquered peoples and be done with it. Compared to that, the Islamic way was far more benign, since it allowed the subjects to live their life as usual. Secondly, the tax was an income tax imposed on non-Muslims in lieu of the Muslim tax, zakaat, levied on Muslims.

If you are going to pretent to be a Pakistani Muslim, at least do your homework before posting crap.

It was not quite that simple nor were Muslims quite that nice.....and I notice you did not mention the Blasphemy Act Section 295/C of the Pakistan Penal Code (blasphemy law) imposes death penalty on anyone found to have "by words or visible representation or by an imputation or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiled the name of the Prophet Mohammad of Islam". Similarly any body blamed as blasphemer against Koran would be awarded life imprisonment under section 295/C of the Blasphemy Act.

I am not much of a Pakistani,, I came to this country when I was 5...nor do I take any religion all that serious....

 

[qsaark]

It was not quite that simple nor were Muslims quite that nice.....and I notice you did not mention the Blasphemy Act Section 295/C of the Pakistan Penal Code (blasphemy law) imposes death penalty on anyone found to have "by words or visible representation or by an imputation or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiled the name of the Prophet Mohammad of Islam". Similarly any body blamed as blasphemer against Koran would be awarded life imprisonment under section 295/C of the Blasphemy Act.

Without going into the right or wrong of it, I would like to ask you, do you have exact figures of how many ‘innocents’ have fallen victim to the two laws you mentioned above? Having a law for political or whatever reasons is one thing and having a law imposed is a different thing.

I am not much of a Pakistani,, I came to this country when I was 5...nor do I take any religion all that serious....

That we can see already. This is not your fault that you are so unaware, it was the responsibility of your parents to introduce you adequately to your roots and your culture. Not taking religion serious is your personal problem; however, when you talk here, talk with proper references or stay away from for which you don’t have adequate knowledge base.

 

[Developereo]

I notice you did not mention the Blasphemy Act Section 295/C of the Pakistan Penal Code

I am not going to defend the indefensible.

The blasphemy law is a barbarism that needs to be removed from the books.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...istan-minister-vows-revise-blasphemy-law.html

I am not much of a Pakistani,, I came to this country when I was 5...

That, by itself, does not make you, or prevent you from being, a Pakistani. If you had spent any time in Pakistan as an (young) adult, you would know that many of the Western stereotypes about Pakistan are simply false.

Yes, we have extremist and misogynistic elements in Pakistan, and there is poverty, corruption and all the attendant evils including crime, but Pakistan is much more than that. We elected a female head of state -- something neither the US nor Australia has managed so far, we have produced world renowned artists, athletes and Nobel Prize winner, and many of our elite citizens are non-Muslims who, by the way, are thriving as first-class, patriotic citizens.

http://www.jazbah.org/index.php

and

http://www.chowk.com/articles/5747
Non-muslims are amongst the most talented and the most patriotic Pakistanis. Justice Bhagwan Das of the Supreme Court is held to amongst the most honest judges serving right now. Pakistan’s best fashion designer is a Hindu (Deepak Parwani), and the best model is a christian (Sunita Marshall). The owners of the largest hotel chain (Avari Hotels) are parsis. The best batsman in Pakistan’s cricket team is a christian (Youhanna), and the best leg spinner in Pakistan is a Hindu. Pakistan’s best drummer is a goan christian (Gumby of Junoon and Noori fame), some of Pakistan’s leading musicians are christians including bands like Saraab and Aks. Even our best novelist in English is arguably a Parsi. Their contribution in fields of defence, education and nation-building is undeniable. Some of Pakistan’s best fighter pilots were christians. Pakistan’s best institutions like Kinnaird College etc are still run by non-muslims.

 

[gubbi]

Ever since Ayub Khan's days (Friends Not Masters) we have known perfectly well that the US is not a true friend of Pakistan. There are very few true friends in politics. Even now, don't delude yourself that the US has any special affinity towards India, other than as part of the emerging anti-China strategy. The US knows that China is going to be it's main rival in this century, and is laying the groundwork for the upcoming showdown.

Its politics dude. Indians know politics and there are no permanent friends in international politics. GoI was never under the delusion that US is our permanent friend nor was Russia. Each has his/her own interests. Unlike Pakistan who thought US was their all weather friend and now considers China as their all weather friend. Lets see how long China sees her interests satisfied in Pakistan. After that?

Don't confuse Hollywood fantasies with reality. All the military might of the US is irrelevant if the human intel isn't there. The US is heavily dependent on Pakistan for on-the-ground intel. So far, almost all major AQ arrests or hits have been possible only with Pakistan's help.

Whatever you want to believe, makes you sleep at night.

She is popular with Indians because she panders to their causes, even at the expense of American interests. The reference to D-Punjab was often used derogatarily by US commentators to point out the fact that she, like Bill, has been highly supportive of outsourcing American jobs to India -- in exchange for bribes, erm campaign contributions, of course.

Can you give sources for Bribes given to Ms Hillary Clinton? By Indians? Or is it a case of sour apples when where once Pakistan was the toast of cocktail parties in the Capitol and now the whole perspective has changed?

The aid package is a contract between Pakistan and the US. For the US lawmakers to inject clauses in the KLB at the behest of, and pertaining to, India is unprofessional at best, and self-defeating at worst, given that the whole point of the bill was to win Pakistani hearts and minds. Once again, the US Congress demonstrated its incompetence by caving in to foreign interest groups.

Lol, who said it was to win hearts and minds of Pakistanis? Its for your efforts in the fight against the taliban and aq. Last I heard Pakistan spent twice the amount India spent on lobbying the US congress this year! And yet this is what they have to show? Indian lobbying is for India's intersts. US, NATO, UN are not stupid not to see whats happening in Pakistan and they have acted rightly so, though unexpectedly this has ben a windfall for India. India is at the right place at the right time. Period.
Btw, people in GoP know more than you or I about the intricacies of the bill and the reasons to accept it. Jingoistic behavior is not one of their traits. No use blaming only Zardari or any other politician you love to hate, they have an army of thinktanks, bureaucrats and civil servants who do the nitty gritty stuff and come up with statements which the politician reads!

That is historically inaccurate. Afghanistan had never truly accepted Pakistan's territorial integrity because of their claims on NWFP. India and Afghanistan shared a common agenda in that respect. The statements by Indira Gandhi and others are proof enough.

His version and your version of history! Maybe the truth is something different.
And thats why you took advantage of the Russian invasion to create "strategic depth"? Oh my!
Cant secure your own borders and enforce your laws? Thats your problem! Stop blaming all and sundry, including imaginary enemies for your problems. One gets into a mess due to ones own incompetence.

I saw disapproval, not blatant hate, in that comment. Perhaps there is a larger context to that comment that I am unaware of.

precisely!

Not even close!
Except for refugees and asylum seekers, the overwhelming majority of third world immigration to the West is purely for economic reasons. People may say the right thing about loving freedom and all to pamper their new hosts' ego, but you and I both know that big shot desis in India/Pakistan live a life of luxury that most of us in the West can't even dream of.

Economic reasons for precisely the 'free thinking' thing. Lets compare a free thinking society with that of a society stuck with a religious fundamentalist mindset! Do you see opportunities for economic development in such societies? With "free thinking" comes many opportunities and thats why we desis go there.
Every human being wants to be treated with respect and we seek that in the western societies. Fortunately we do get it here, unlike in some of our societies back home. Now how is that pandering to host's ego? Yours my friend is a skewered view about this.

There is corruption and immorality in all cultures. I see such criticism as a sign of commitment and integration. It shows that the immigrant has made the new place their home and is engaged with it. After all, if you saw prostitution and drug dealing outside your window, you would probably ignore it if you were there temporarily, i.e. in a hotel, as opposed to if it was your own house.

Nice point. But why defend the barbaric practices in home country as being morally superior?
That behavior, my friend, is called hypocrisy.

Assimilation goes both ways. Immigrants must accept the new country's ways and they also contribute to the diversity by bringing in their own traditions. That's why it's called a melting pot, not an acid pot that homogenizes everything into an indistinct glop.

There is a cultural war going on in every country, especially between conservatives and liberals. Each side believes their values are superior. Social conservatives around the world will find much in common with similar minded immigrants from other countries. Ditto for liberals. There is no harm in finding common cause with like-minded people in your new home. In fact you would be welcomed by them.

Valid points and I whole heartedly agree with you on these. But that doesnt mean that its OK to add some of our disgusting practices into the mix. It doesn't make it right.

Once again, you seem to be suffering from the belief that Pakistani-Americans or Indian-Americans aren't "really" Americans and should keep in their place and act "appropriately".

Wrong assumption.

Well, that's a matter of definition. If an immigrant tries to clean his or her neighborhood of adult bookshops and nudie bars, because they feel these to be immoral, are they being closed minded or exercising their right to free speech?

Close minded. Whats wrong with adult bookshops or nudie bars? Just keep kids younger than 18 away from them. Unless you happen to be a prude!
Seriously, sex is the celebration, cause and purpose of life. Enjoy it while you are alive and kicking! Stop being a prude.

Or would you advise them to just suck it up because that's just the way it is in their new home?

New land, new home, new rules. Pretty much yes!

 

[Abu Basit]

Or Pakistan could be considered an partner of the Taliban and Al Quada and a enemy of the USA and suffer the resulting consquences.

Wow' that was really scary

you make me laugh ,
Instead of giving threats to Pakistan, think abt u'r chickens cry in Afghanistan.

US seeks Pak, Saudi support in dialogues with Afghan Taliban
Sunday, 1 Nov, 2009 5:11 pm

ISLAMABAD : The United States has decided to initiate dialogue with Afghan Taliban, and requested Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for their support in dialogue process, Aaj news reported.

Diplomatic sources told the channel that the US has decided to dialogue with Taliban in Afghanistan.

Main commander and Naib Amir Mullah Akhund from Taliban side is taking part in dialogue process with the US.

Source said Mullah Akhund has made it clear to US for not creating rift among the Taliban on the basis of money.

He also asked the US to take its forces out of Afghanistan as soon as possible so that government as per with the wishes of Afghan people could be formed.

AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz

 

[MilesTogo]

My 2 cents- It is practically impossible to secure such a long border at such a short notice. USA is struggling with illegal immigration from south america.

We did deploy troops, tens of thousands of them, how many did the US deploy? And also remember that the Indian Parliament attacks occurred that December, and subsequently Operation Parakram that at the time was the overriding threat.

And Pakistan did raise the issue of the Durand, the US was not interested in pushing its ally Karzai to move on it, and Karzai was not interested in moving.

And a complete stop to cross-border movement, even with a stop to the historical movement of the Pashtun tribes, is next to impossible given the terrain and our resource constraints.