Heavy firing on the LOC - 6 plus Indian Soldiers Killed

[Baibars_1260]

All this used to work before WW2.
You dont understand the implications of the WW2 and how it has transformed the world view.
The Mughals also ruled India for 400 years, the British also ruled India for 250 years, and Mauryan and other Indian empires also ruled from Afghanistan to Indonesia for xxx number of years. All this means nothing because those times were different, modern states are different. Look at what China did in Xinjiang and got away with it scott free, while CCP bots here parade videos of how Xinjiang girl says China is great or Tibet girl secures the border and wants to lay her life for China. Even the Arabs without their oil would be a pretty insignificant lot today.

I have been to Xian, Shanxi and Urumuqi and there is no lynching of bearded men for eating a particularly kind of meat , nor are they asked to recite a particular religious slogan before being lynched. There are no state organized pogroms and no one's citizenship is questioned, Nor is that section of the population being blamed for overpopulation. Quite the reverse the Hui Muslims and Uyghurs as minorities are allowed two children as opposed to a one child norm for the rest of the population. There is NO discrimination in employment, education and there is special representation in the armed forces, China is a secular country so there is no preference or supremacy of one religion over the other and religion is kept strictly out of politics, and function of the state.
The Chinese military hardware functions just as well without a religious ceremony to enhance their capabilities. Any comparison between India and China on treatment of minorities is odious.

Some fascist occupations have been successful with first the subjugation and then elimination of populations. One example often cited and proposed to be emulated by the RSS VHP Bajrang Dal in India is the Spanish Reconquista with the successful elimination of the Muslims there. It is often referred to as the Andalusian Syndrome where by a combination of intrigue, terror, and a compliant corrupt leadership the Muslim population of Spain was herded into one zone where they were successfully eliminated by massacre, enslavement ( shipped to Mexico), expulsion and conversion, It was illegal to be a Muslim in Spain until 1973 when EU laws required freedom of religion. For India and the RSS the modern Andalusia is Pakistan and Kashmir. It was hoped to drive the Muslims out of India into Pakistan which would like Andalusia before be unable to sustain the population and collapse to be ultimately depopulated of Muslims and be assimilated back into India ( sans Muslims).
The RSS plan did not work out because of a serious miscalculation. India was interested in maintaining the 25% Hindu population in East Pakistan as a future asset so it signed the Liaquat Nehru Pact temporarily stopping the population transfer allowing most of the 11% Muslim population to remain in India. Pakistan tactfully accepted the deal which literally enabled it to survive, Pakistan had to survive at the cost of the Muslims of India; a cost the Indian Muslims have willingly paid. There would never be another Andalusia. India's short term calculations paid off in the subsequent secession of East Pakistan but the euphoria was short lived because as its fascist ideology found a firmer root the Kashmir population got religiously polarized.
What is more Bangladesh remained majority Muslim. A conversion to a different faith like in Andalusia didn't happen.
It is said of Andalusia that a Spanish soldier arrived at a Moorish aristocrats mansion to despatch the inmates. When he dismounted from his horse he learnt he had forgotten his sword. He left asking the inmates to wait for his return with his sword. Trusting in their Creator the inmates did just that.
Unlike Andalusia the level of corruption and betrayal in Pakistan ( excluding the civil war in 1971) has never been to the advantage of the enemy. A strong alliance with China, a robust defense, and a population willing to fight has ensured all other conflicts as stalemates . Stalemates against an enemy that is 5-7 times superior in manpower and material.
There is another difference between Pakistan and Andalusia.
Unlike the Andalusians , Pakistanis are willing to be vaporized and die in a nuclear holocaust as long as they can inflict the same fate on their enemy. This is a point the RSS fascist regime will one day blindly overlook and miscalculate. Of course in the 5000 year history of the enemy this will be the last mistake

 

[GriffinsRule]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1327387186497540099

If after watching this video and after watching these innocent girls crying if someone is going to say "don't celebrate deaths of enemy soldiers" or "enemy soldiers have families too" I would lose my patience and that person would be equal to an enemy for me

I think they need to build underground shelters in places such as schools in case of artillery firing, just like in this instance. sitting in a classroom is not going to help them escape unscathed.

 

[arjunk]

Link to the press conference?

 

[Baibars_1260]

I think they need to build underground shelters in places such as schools in case of artillery firing, just like in this instance. sitting in a classroom is not going to help them escape unscathed.

Killing civilians is a standard tactic to try to break the will of the people.
The Vietcong built shelters that protected the population from B52 raids and it was done very effectively and cheaply. The underground shelters were in tiers of tunnels being 10-20 meters underground and well camouflaged offered adequate protection from most gravity cluster munitions.

The British developed low cost Andersen shelters in World War 2 to be used by single families. These were extremely effective and apart from a direct hit offered protection from shelling from coastal artillery batteries across the English Channel, arial bombs, and even V1 Cruise bombs and V2 ballistic missiles ( unless it was a direct hit).
Redesigned Andersen shelters using FRP panels instead of corrugated iron ( British Design) can be installed very cheaply and built on the spot by the local population themselves.

 

[Jackdaws]

Well that's rather rich coming from an enemy that has never won a war in 1000 years and its only victory was the occupation a territory (that had seceded 25 years before) for just 60 days and then retreated ( Retreat from Dhaka 1972).
Here is a list of your "wars with infinite resources ":
'A lesson in History:
Battle of Aror 712 CE
Raja Dahir killed by Bin Qasim
Battle of Peshawar 1001 CE
Raja Jaipal defeated and killed by Mahmud Ghazni.
Second Battle of Tarain 1192 CE, Mohammed Ghori kills Prithviraj Chauhan
Bakhtiyar Khilji conquers Bihar 1195–1203 CE ; A dozen more all through upto the 16th century.
Battle of Khanwaha, Battle of Panipat ( 2) , Battle of Haldighati,
Battle of Panipat ( 3)
Battle of Chawinda, Battle of Nallur Khandaswamy Temple,
Retreat from Dhaka ( 1972).
Retreat from Tiger Hill ( 1999)
Retreat from Kandahar ( Hijack )
Retreat from Balakot ( 2019)
Retreat from Pangong Tso
( 2020 ).

Lol - how confused are you -

Raja Dahir was from present day Pakistan. What does battle of Haldighati between 2 Indian rulers have to do with Pak?
Retreat from Dhaka? Hahaha. That's like saying the Soviets retreated from Berlin post WW2.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Death toll of dead in pakistan has reached 11.

Six civilians among 11 killed in Pakistan firing at LoC

Four soldiers and a BSF jawan also dead; Army hits back at ammunition dumps.

www.thehindu.com

LoC ceasefire: 11 of its soldiers killed in retaliatory fire, Pakistan summons Indian diplomat

LoC ceasefire: 11 of its soldiers killed in retaliatory fire, Pakistan summons Indian diplomat

Indian Army initiated retaliatory fire after Pakistan engaged in unprovoked ceasefire violation on Friday, firing mortars and other weapons in multiple sectors from Uri to Gurez along the LoC in J&K.

www.indiatoday.in

Did we miss any crow that got killed in the blast?

 

[Avatar]

This is exactly where India made a huge military blunder. Indian Army underestimated Pakistan Army's deployment and weapons and is now equally involved in paying the price through blood. India wanted a war of attrition on LOC with this false thinking that Pakistani troops will suffer multiple causalities everyday day which Pakistan wont be able to replace due to the brutal logistics measures in the Kashmir terrain. The wounded will fill all the military hospitals and when fresh troops will see a long line of wounded, their morale will hit the ground. It will be tough to keep supply lines open on roads for weapons, ammo and other supplies which are in reach of Indian small arms weapons and artillery. Pakistan Army will not be able to support troops which have to be deployed in far flung mountain tops since helicopters are limited in number and will not find place to land unless open areas or make shift helipads are made. To further ensure that helicopters don't operate at all near LOC, Indian Army put 35mm and other calibres of Anti aircraft artillery.

While the Indian generals were over joyed with such an bold plan, the Pakistani Army punched the Indian Army right in the nose so the Indian Generals can realise their own stupidity !

Pakistan Army plugged the gaps on LOC by bringing strength of numbers through NG battalions (Janbaz or Mujahid ), which are used as defensive forces, while Pakistan Army deployed regular troops to conduct offensive Ops if and when required. The NG troops will provide flanking cover and defend all supply lines when regular Pakistan troops are tasked to go on the offensive. That is double the strength which Indian Army Top brass never imagined when they were planning their misadventures of causing attrition. Further on, a LID was raised and deployed behind FCNA Ops area of LOC.

So instead of suffering losses through a so called " war or attrition", Pakistan raised another 2 x Light Infantry Divisions, which are impossible to raise when a Military formation is suffering losses through attrition.

Next, Pakistan not only started building and manning posts in far flung mountain tops, but got pack howitzers and mortars to fully retaliate when Indian Army uses its heavy weapons. Not only that but PA troops also brought forward stock of ATGMs for direct fire to take out Indian Army bunkers, this was to compliment the SPG-9 and 35mm deployed for providing firepower. Then SSG snipers were deployed to keep taking out enemy stragglers wandering between posts. This is not 65 or 71 that Pakistan cannot make produce own ammo, POF is churning it out. Old stock is being used instead of being wasted.

Engineers started constructing roads, pathways, bridges to make inroads into forward positions. Then bunkers and hardened shelters were made along with medical stations. The depots and dumps were made road accessible. Pakistan RVFC started getting mules from Mona depot and used them extensively to carry supplies in inhospitable terrain of Kashmir. Thousands and thousands of animals were drafted and are still used today in the areas where vehicles or helicopters cannot reach. Pakistan Army increased strength of light and medium helicopters and made helipads in Military hospitals for quick evac. The 130mm guns and other heavy weaponry with ammo was deployed in inhospitable terrain through helicopters.

Wherever Indian Army built a post and deployed troops, Pakistan built a post in front of it on opposite side. This kept Indians in check and they lost space of area to spread and create a surprise. While Indians post hold more troops than Pakistan posts, the defensive posture of both armies ensure that Pakistan Army deploys its fire power accordingly to retaliate to Indian Army firing. Another mistake which Indian generals did was to tell their troops of how weak and undefended Pakistan's side of LOC, the frustration of troops led to suicides in Indian military ranks. This is why false bravado and brain washing through lies is not the best way to deploy troops on front lines. Logistics became a nightmare for Indian Army and a video of Indian soldier surfaced on internet about his rations.

Indian Army has been caught in its own trap and neither can Indian troops advance into AJK without suffering major causalities nor can they leave/withdraw from their current positions. The Indian troops have to withstand pounding of Pakistan Army's small arms fire and Artillery as and when Pakistani troops wish. The Indian Army has to count its dead and send bodies back home. Now the frustrated Indian media wants to match causality numbers due to failure of Indian General's plan.

The rat who tried to act over-smart with vile intentions to inflict damage has been caught in its own trap !

This is a very fine and emotionally charged narrative. Thank you for sharing with me and showing me that Pakistani army are doing their job to the best of their ability. I largely agree with you. I am not saying that Indian military generals are all knowing, omniscient, strategic geniuses who shall not err.

Whether we like it or not - LOC will never cool down until the infiltration attempts stop. Indian generals and Pakistani generals are both doing their respective jobs to the contentment of their people. Pakistan has played very well so far but you cannot deny that these actions do have opportunity costs in the form of economic welfare and growth as well as radicalization of people.

I disagree with you when it comes to the damage assesment and respective armies abilities to sustain this conflict. We both know that the gap grows larger every year which forces Pakistani army to use more radical measures and Pakistan to lean closer towards its all weather ally. Even if I consider that everything you have said to be are actual facts on the ground and not official versions of what your army would prefer people to believe - India (as well as Pakistans) war plans, strategies and assignment of resources are always being optimized according to the evolving threat matrix. Generals may have made blunders on either side but they learn and respond adequately.

In these LOC exchanges nobody wins anything, just humans dying and hating each other more.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is exactly where India made a huge military blunder. Indian Army underestimated Pakistan Army's deployment and weapons and is now equally involved in paying the price through blood. India wanted a war of attrition on LOC with this false thinking that Pakistani troops will suffer multiple causalities everyday day which Pakistan wont be able to replace due to the brutal logistics measures in the Kashmir terrain. The wounded will fill all the military hospitals and when fresh troops will see a long line of wounded, their morale will hit the ground. It will be tough to keep supply lines open on roads for weapons, ammo and other supplies which are in reach of Indian small arms weapons and artillery. Pakistan Army will not be able to support troops which have to be deployed in far flung mountain tops since helicopters are limited in number and will not find place to land unless open areas or make shift helipads are made. To further ensure that helicopters don't operate at all near LOC, Indian Army put 35mm and other calibres of Anti aircraft artillery.

While the Indian generals were over joyed with such an bold plan, the Pakistani Army punched the Indian Army right in the nose so the Indian Generals can realise their own stupidity !

Pakistan Army plugged the gaps on LOC by bringing strength of numbers through NG battalions (Janbaz or Mujahid ), which are used as defensive forces, while Pakistan Army deployed regular troops to conduct offensive Ops if and when required. The NG troops will provide flanking cover and defend all supply lines when regular Pakistan troops are tasked to go on the offensive. That is double the strength which Indian Army Top brass never imagined when they were planning their misadventures of causing attrition. Further on, a LID was raised and deployed behind FCNA Ops area of LOC.

So instead of suffering losses through a so called " war or attrition", Pakistan raised another 2 x Light Infantry Divisions, which are impossible to raise when a Military formation is suffering losses through attrition.

Next, Pakistan not only started building and manning posts in far flung mountain tops, but got pack howitzers and mortars to fully retaliate when Indian Army uses its heavy weapons. Not only that but PA troops also brought forward stock of ATGMs for direct fire to take out Indian Army bunkers, this was to compliment the SPG-9 and 35mm deployed for providing firepower. Then SSG snipers were deployed to keep taking out enemy stragglers wandering between posts. This is not 65 or 71 that Pakistan cannot make produce own ammo, POF is churning it out. Old stock is being used instead of being wasted.

Engineers started constructing roads, pathways, bridges to make inroads into forward positions. Then bunkers and hardened shelters were made along with medical stations. The depots and dumps were made road accessible. Pakistan RVFC started getting mules from Mona depot and used them extensively to carry supplies in inhospitable terrain of Kashmir. Thousands and thousands of animals were drafted and are still used today in the areas where vehicles or helicopters cannot reach. Pakistan Army increased strength of light and medium helicopters and made helipads in Military hospitals for quick evac. The 130mm guns and other heavy weaponry with ammo was deployed in inhospitable terrain through helicopters.

Wherever Indian Army built a post and deployed troops, Pakistan built a post in front of it on opposite side. This kept Indians in check and they lost space of area to spread and create a surprise. While Indians post hold more troops than Pakistan posts, the defensive posture of both armies ensure that Pakistan Army deploys its fire power accordingly to retaliate to Indian Army firing. Another mistake which Indian generals did was to tell their troops of how weak and undefended Pakistan's side of LOC, the frustration of troops led to suicides in Indian military ranks. This is why false bravado and brain washing through lies is not the best way to deploy troops on front lines. Logistics became a nightmare for Indian Army and a video of Indian soldier surfaced on internet about his rations.

Indian Army has been caught in its own trap and neither can Indian troops advance into AJK without suffering major causalities nor can they leave/withdraw from their current positions. The Indian troops have to withstand pounding of Pakistan Army's small arms fire and Artillery as and when Pakistani troops wish. The Indian Army has to count its dead and send bodies back home. Now the frustrated Indian media wants to match causality numbers due to failure of Indian General's plan.

The rat who tried to act over-smart with vile intentions to inflict damage has been caught in its own trap !

Amin Summe Amin....

I am pretty sure Pak Army has deployed or needs to deploy terrestrial radars and EW of all sorts. It also includes those detecting mortar fires. Drones are definitely another plus....

 

[PDF]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2737431259864023

press conference live

alternate link

 

[Neurath]

This is a very fine and emotionally charged narrative. Thank you for sharing with me and showing me that Pakistani army are doing their job to the best of their ability. I largely agree with you. I am not saying that Indian military generals are all knowing, omniscient, strategic geniuses who shall not err.

Whether we like it or not - LOC will never cool down until the infiltration attempts stop. Indian generals and Pakistani generals are both doing their respective jobs to the contentment of their people. Pakistan has played very well so far but you cannot deny that these actions do have opportunity costs in the form of economic welfare and growth as well as radicalization of people.

I disagree with you when it comes to the damage assesment and respective armies abilities to sustain this conflict. We both know that the gap grows larger every year which forces Pakistani army to use more radical measures and Pakistan to lean closer towards its all weather ally. Even if I consider that everything you have said to be are actual facts on the ground and not official versions of what your army would prefer people to believe - India (as well as Pakistans) war plans, strategies and assignment of resources are always being optimized according to the evolving threat matrix. Generals may have made blunders on either side but they learn and respond adequately.

In these LOC exchanges nobody wins anything, just humans dying and hating each other more.

Well at least someone on the Indian side has the guts to admit that the Pakistan Army's been playing better as of now.
And yes, you're right. In LOC exchanges, nothing is achieved. Only human life is lost and warriors on Facebook get excuses to shit talk the other.
Btw if some Indian needs help why Pakistan is having less casualties and India more, I'm ready to provide some explanations.

 

[Windjammer]

Death toll of dead in pakistan has reached 11.

Six civilians among 11 killed in Pakistan firing at LoC

Four soldiers and a BSF jawan also dead; Army hits back at ammunition dumps.

www.thehindu.com

LoC ceasefire: 11 of its soldiers killed in retaliatory fire, Pakistan summons Indian diplomat

LoC ceasefire: 11 of its soldiers killed in retaliatory fire, Pakistan summons Indian diplomat

Indian Army initiated retaliatory fire after Pakistan engaged in unprovoked ceasefire violation on Friday, firing mortars and other weapons in multiple sectors from Uri to Gurez along the LoC in J&K.

www.indiatoday.in

Technically, Indians should be called, Pajeet Philips Patils......Philips because once this electronic giant carried the moto, ''Philips Simply ahead of it's times''.....similarly, the Indians have acquired such advanced technology through DRDO that sitting in Delhi, they can simply determine to the decimal, how many Pakistani soldiers killed, how many wounded, how many bunkers destroyed and posts damaged. Truly amazing.
Pity they can't determine the difference between a fast jet and a slow moving helicopter. ...R.I.P Mi-17 crew.

 

[Avatar]

While all the nations train in peacetime to avoid "such things happen" and "we learn from them" in War time, India seems the only nation as per your statement which sends ill-trained troops to "learn" during combat. Speaks volumes about training level of Indian troops.

What can we do? You can humiliate me all you like and I will gladly accept it.
It is the mark of maturity to accept ones own failures and learn from them. At the same time, I respect PAF for their daring and bold surprise attack - but we all know that this was a one off engagement where things went your way - a real war is much more complex in every way and the deeper we go in war the messier it gets.

The only good take away for us in this scenario is that it happened during a show of strength skirmirsh rather than actual combat which gave us an opportunity to introspect and plug the leaks. Dont tell me Pakistani military never had any incidents of self sabotage.

Btw if some Indian needs help why Pakistan is having less casualties and India more, I'm ready to provide some explanations.

This is all part of 6th gen information warfare where conditions are such that no side can conclusively conclude on anything.
For every logic or fact or reason that you have, I am sure there are more Indians who have what they believe are greater logic/reason/facts to counter them.
Nothing is achieved for either side. We must stop hurting each other and intend to peacefully resolve our issues to the best of our ability.
Whether Pakistani or Indian soldiers die at LOC - It is a loss for all humans.

 

[Neurath]

The confirmed death/casualty count from yesterday:

4 Indian soldiers including 1 BSF killed
6 Indian Civilians Killed
--------------------------------------------------
1 Pakistani Soldier martyred
3 Pakistani Civilians Killed

(I would not comment on the number of posts destroyed as a lot of fake videos are being circulated online and no one is able to confirm if they're real or not.)

 

[Vapnope]

We are looking at a very serious development. Chances of things spiralling out of control are very high.
Goodspeed PA.

 

[Avatar]

The confirmed death/casualty count from yesterday:

4 Indian soldiers including 1 BSF killed
6 Indian Civilians Killed
--------------------------------------------------
1 Pakistani Soldier martyred
3 Pakistani Civilians Killed

(I would not comment on the number of posts destroyed as a lot of fake videos are being circulated online and no one is able to confirm is they're real or not.)

Looking at the visuals we can all be sure that a lot more civilians were subject to harm on both sides.
I personally detest the trend of sharing videos and images of soldiers being killed while doing thier duty. I hope both sides realize that this is deeply disrespectful for the soldiers who sacrified themselves to protect what they loved and cherished and stop such activities. A peaceful LOC will contribute to regional growth and progress. Expired ammuniation can be recycled or displayed in a peace museum instead of playing diwali.