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HBO Documentry: Fixer...The taking of Ajmal Naqshbandi

Hi Kidwaibhai,

I do agree with you here......that everyone in the doc was blaming only Pakistan for the support to the Taliban and the unrest in the country....But looking at the attitude of the Foriegn minister Spanta towards the kidnapping.....I feel like the Afghans need to look inwards as well......This disregard for human life has become a common thing for the Afghans I feel....almost like they dont care for life/death anymore.....
However its human nature to point fingers at enemies for their misfortunes....just like us Indians and Pakistani's do as well.....

The man you mention is ex-Taliban turned fixer as mentioned in the doc...A neutral observer would see this as "coming straight from the horses mouth"....I wouldnt take it too seriously....but its definitely something to think about......I mean why would he say Pakistan out of all countries...leaving out the dreaded US and the NATO coalition forces etc......Can you help me understand?

why would he say US or NATO. i am not arguing that pakistan did not help the taliban. but the guy was making it seem like pakistan was micro managing every single step the talibs are taking which is incorrect. the reason that he would blame pakistan is because that is what is popular in GOA if he said anything else he would be picked up and tortured. so he has a lot riding on making the current government happy.
 
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Agreed that a documentry can be doctored to provide a certain point of view....Would you be open to admitting that the claim of India brutalizing Kashmiri's through the "eyewitness accounts" is also part of the same propoganda technique?? If so then Im with you on this one......

but in this particular case, its a documentry produced by a US journo....who hardly has any stakes in glorifying India or omitting certain details....
If you see the doc, you will notice that he is pretty critical of US's involvement in the region.....

In addition, its a known fact that ISI supported the Taliban and India the NA that rules Afghanistan at the moment......
All Im asking is, dont you think there is a possibility of the ISI having links....and lets just hypothetically say that the ISI is involved in destabalizing the Afghan govt...if this turns out to be true.....
As a Pakistani.....what are your views on this??
Do you support such a move in the name of foreign policy and strategic depth??

Its an open question...

What actual evidence did the documentary provide to substantiate all these allegations of the ISI being behind the killing of Ajmal or supporting the Taliban currently?

From your summary, all it appears to contain are anecdotal accounts, not even 'eyewitness accounts' (that you tried to link with Kashmir) - since unlike Kashmir, where the IA soldiers and paramilitaries are distinguishable, the ISI if assisting would be doing so covertly and with as much deniability as possible.
 
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You can't blame all of it on the ISI.. There was a time when Ahmad Shah Masoud defeated the Taliban and took over Kabul but it was only a matter of time before the Taliban struck back and it was at this moment that the United States had completely abondoned Ahmad Shah Masoud and Afghanistan to pursue their endeavours in the Middle East.

That was one of the biggest blowbacks that could happen to both the USA later down the road as well as Pakistan.
 
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What actual evidence did the documentary provide to substantiate all these allegations of the ISI being behind the killing of Ajmal or supporting the Taliban currently?

From your summary, all it appears to contain are anecdotal accounts, not even 'eyewitness accounts' (that you tried to link with Kashmir) - since unlike Kashmir, where the IA soldiers and paramilitaries are distinguishable, the ISI if assisting would be doing so covertly and with as much deniability as possible.

Hi AM,

First off, lets clarify that I did not link Kashmir to this, Kashmir came into the mix only to prove that if a documentry like this can be doctored, then the hundreds of "documentries" that are floating around about brutality in Kashmir by Indians which are presented as "factual evidence" can also be part of the same propoganda technique.....You cant be selective to suit your opinion.....

Asking me what actual eveidence did the documentry provide linking ISI to the Taliban is similar to asking what evidence does Pakistan have regarding RAW's involvement in Balouchistan.....the answer is, there is none.....How could there be....these are works of intelligence agencies who arent exactly bound to disclose their actions.....

However the questions I raised were based on the interviews of 3 afghans, one of whom was an Ex-Taliban guy who was close to the kidnappers who says that the order to re-kidnapp Ajmal and behead him came directly from Pakistan......My argument is based on this statement....now as Develpro mentioned, documentries can be doctored to a certain extent......but based on the limited information presented this is what can be taken from here......

I dont want to point fingers, but I just want to know from the Pakistani members.....what do they feel if actual evidence of ISI-Taliban links surface......what is their opinion on this?
 
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why would he say US or NATO. i am not arguing that pakistan did not help the taliban. but the guy was making it seem like pakistan was micro managing every single step the talibs are taking which is incorrect. the reason that he would blame pakistan is because that is what is popular in GOA if he said anything else he would be picked up and tortured. so he has a lot riding on making the current government happy.

Well actually thats exactly what was mentioned, at least in this kidnapping/murder case.......The Ex-Taliban does explicitly state that the order to re-kidnapp Ajmal after the release of the Italian Journo was sent by Pakistan and the final orders to behead him came from the same.......

The reason stated was to create unrest among the people who were demanding that the Karzai Govt barter a deal to release militants in exchange for Ajmal.......The fact that the govt rejected the deal motivated the kidnappers to behead him as this would make the people lose faith in the govt....which would obviously be beneficial to Pakistan and the Taliban.....

Now about Pakistan Micro-managing actions I wont say, but strategic direction on how to gain maximum impact through PR is definitely something that could be coming from Pakistan....I mean I hardly think the Talibanis have a PR arm.....LOL...thats got me thinking now!!!

Now all this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but hell.....a lot of topics on this forum are......except this one is based on a documentry
 
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Everyone in the world knows how sophisticated AQ propaganda machine is. why can it not be the case that it was AQ in pakistan that was giving advise to the talibs to kill the journalist. they have a much greater stake in an unstable afghanistan than pakistan does.
 
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^^^^ The possibility of AQ being involved cannot be ruled out....
 
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Hi AM,

First off, lets clarify that I did not link Kashmir to this, Kashmir came into the mix only to prove that if a documentry like this can be doctored, then the hundreds of "documentries" that are floating around about brutality in Kashmir by Indians which are presented as "factual evidence" can also be part of the same propoganda technique.....You cant be selective to suit your opinion.....
One can be selective since most documentaries on Kashmir tend be about the oppression and abuse inflicted by IA soldiers and paramilitaries/police on the Kashmiris, all of whom tend to be in uniform or in many cases easily distinguishable by appearance from the locals (soldiers or paramilitaries from India instead of Kashmir) - so you have direct eyewitness and victim accounts of such brutality, not opinion and anecdotes.

In addition, these accounts have been consistent over the decades and are also largely validated by international human rights organizations like Amnesty HRW etc.

This particular issue, of ISI involvement in Afghanistan, is completely different, since the ISI would be at pains to not have any physical or traceable presence in Afghanistan, lest the Americans get wind of it - so eyewitness accounts have little credibility, since there really is nothing to witness linking the ISI to the Taliban currently. And yes, Indian support for Baluch rebels falls into a similar category of 'hard to prove'.
Asking me what actual eveidence did the documentry provide linking ISI to the Taliban is similar to asking what evidence does Pakistan have regarding RAW's involvement in Balouchistan.....the answer is, there is none.....

Sticking to the topic of ISI support for the Taliban for now, you admit then that the documentary does not offer any evidence to back up the allegation that the ISI is supporting the Taliban?
However the questions I raised were based on the interviews of 3 afghans, one of whom was an Ex-Taliban guy who was close to the kidnappers who says that the order to re-kidnapp Ajmal and behead him came directly from Pakistan......My argument is based on this statement....
'The order came from Pakistan' - that could be anyone in Pakistan, an Afghan Taliban commander secretly seeking refuge there, a Pakistani Taliban commander, someone from Al Qaeda in Pakistan, or someone from another militant group altogether. That statement on its own, without evidence to back it up, is nothing but the documentary maker sensationalizing pure opinion without substantiation in order to demonize the handy bogeyman in the form of the ISI.

now as Develpro mentioned, documentries can be doctored to a certain extent......but based on the limited information presented this is what can be taken from here......
Did the narrator accompany the statements by these Afghans with the caveat that none of them could be independently verified?

If not then it seems opinions and anecdotes are being presented as facts to tarnish Pakistan and the ISI, and I would conclude that this documentary is heavily propagandist, or just a plain bad piece of work, lacking objectivity.

I dont want to point fingers, but I just want to know from the Pakistani members.....what do they feel if actual evidence of ISI-Taliban links surface......what is their opinion on this?
How would you feel if evidence emerged that the US had kidnapped Martians on a visit to Earth?

How would you feel if evidence emerged that Indian Army officers upto the COAS were found to be running a child sex ring?

You are asking for opinions based on an allegation that is currently backed by little to no evidence, like the one above.

Lets not indulge in useless speculation.

If there is nothing more to add in terms of evidence in the documentary backing the allegations against the ISI, then I'll close this thread.
 
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One can be selective since most documentaries on Kashmir tend be about the oppression and abuse inflicted by IA soldiers and paramilitaries/police on the Kashmiris, all of whom tend to be in uniform or in many cases easily distinguishable by appearance from the locals (soldiers or paramilitaries from India instead of Kashmir) - so you have direct eyewitness and victim accounts of such brutality, not opinion and anecdotes.

In addition, these accounts have been consistent over the decades and are also largely validated by international human rights organizations like Amnesty HRW etc.

This particular issue, of ISI involvement in Afghanistan, is completely different, since the ISI would be at pains to not have any physical or traceable presence in Afghanistan, lest the Americans get wind of it - so eyewitness accounts have little credibility, since there really is nothing to witness linking the ISI to the Taliban currently. And yes, Indian support for Baluch rebels falls into a similar category of 'hard to prove'.


Sticking to the topic of ISI support for the Taliban for now, you admit then that the documentary does not offer any evidence to back up the allegation that the ISI is supporting the Taliban?

'The order came from Pakistan' - that could be anyone in Pakistan, an Afghan Taliban commander secretly seeking refuge there, a Pakistani Taliban commander, someone from Al Qaeda in Pakistan, or someone from another militant group altogether. That statement on its own, without evidence to back it up, is nothing but the documentary maker sensationalizing pure opinion without substantiation in order to demonize the handy bogeyman in the form of the ISI.


Did the narrator accompany the statements by these Afghans with the caveat that none of them could be independently verified?

If not then it seems opinions and anecdotes are being presented as facts to tarnish Pakistan and the ISI, and I would conclude that this documentary is heavily propagandist, or just a plain bad piece of work, lacking objectivity.


How would you feel if evidence emerged that the US had kidnapped Martians on a visit to Earth?

How would you feel if evidence emerged that Indian Army officers upto the COAS were found to be running a child sex ring?

You are asking for opinions based on an allegation that is currently backed by little to no evidence, like the one above.

Lets not indulge in useless speculation.

If there is nothing more to add in terms of evidence in the documentary backing the allegations against the ISI, then I'll close this thread.

Oh come on lets not be naiive here and resort to threatening postures. What proofs do you want of ISI role in Afghanistan now...American, Australian, English , Indian....Martians maybe.... they all say the same ISI involved itself in a double game and got caught....thats your national agency so naturally pakistan gets the blame unless you are keen on accepting its a rogue agency and does stuff on its own against the governments policies....you just cant change some facts with word twisting and here is one
 
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Oh come on lets not be naiive here and resort to threatening postures. What proofs do you want of ISI role in Afghanistan now...American, Australian, English , Indian....Martians maybe.... they all say the same ISI involved itself in a double game and got caught....

And what proof do you have of that? What evidence have the American's, Australians, English, Indians and Martians provided to substantiate this allegation you keep regurgitating like a broken record? Please, so many people making the claim, there must be some solid evidence lying around right?
thats your national agency so naturally pakistan gets the blame unless you are keen on accepting its a rogue agency and does stuff on its own against the governments policies....you just cant change some facts with word twisting and here is one
A national agency against which no evidence indicating support for the Taliban, as an institution, has been presented. If there are 'facts', then please do present them.

I asked you for 'facts' and 'evidence' above, and you chose to rather disingenuously interpret that request for 'facts and evidence' as a 'threatening posture' - the word games and obfuscation is all you sir.

If you are not obfuscating, then prove your case - Institutional support by the ISI for the Taliban post 2001.
 
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And what proof do you have of

If you are not obfuscating, then prove your case - Institutional support by the ISI for the Taliban post 2001.

now works of intelligence agencies are classified, whose proofs don't get published like by some Paparazzi....

SO from your above statement u accept that pre-2001, there was an established, with little doubt, relationship between ISI and Taliban !! if you don't accept it then obviously no point arguing post 2001 !! :hitwall::hitwall:
not to say ISI agrees to everything what taliban preaches but ISI also had something to gain out of it after afghan war.
Post 9/11, things changed and pakistan was forced to wage a war for america, but that doesn't take out the well-nourished 2 decades relationship of ISI and taliban Overnight !!
The support to taliban mayn't be the same anymore, but there will be undeniable questions on the level of sympathies for them from different quarters of civilians, govt establishment including spy agencies, for these are not controlled by a Remote Switch to just on/off as required...

Then finally this convoluted relationship might be exploited by other agencies too ..who knows.. but just living in denial is dangerous..

Proofs on activities involving multiple countries and spy agencies is most difficult to present esp when the issue is by large alive.. may be we will get to know proofs after 30-40 yrs when they are de-classified.. similarly when the crime perpetrators come from foreign lands, it's almost next to impossible to provide hard core evidences except for decent Leads with good probabilities.:agree::agree:
 
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No body said that we did not support the taliban in the 90's. I personally think that supporting them was the only option that Pakistan had. As far as proof is concerned then i dont see the reason why some cannot be provided after all the people at the ISI are not ghost what they do must leave behind some clues of their involvement.
As for people in the ISI still having sympathies. this is out of question most people in the world agree the ISI is a fairly disciplined military organization which is highly professional. Even if anybody was working with the ISI against state policy i am sure they have checks and balances that would identify such individuals and then they would be taken to task for disobeying orders like any other military organization
 
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As for people in the ISI still having sympathies. this is out of question most people in the world agree the ISI is a fairly disciplined military organization which is highly professional. Even if anybody was working with the ISI against state policy i am sure they have checks and balances that would identify such individuals and then they would be taken to task for disobeying orders like any other military organization

That's a reasonable expectation... but when ur own pakistanis curse how stooge is ur govt to USA and the so called Mr 10%, how do you think the govt has absolute control on ISI or likewise organizations ? or how answerable are these organizations, when general public perception is this govt be heavily backed by USA themselves...

Here my assumption is ISI are strong nationalists if not chauvinists !!:confused:
 
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No body said that we did not support the taliban in the 90's. I personally think that supporting them was the only option that Pakistan had. As far as proof is concerned then i dont see the reason why some cannot be provided after all the people at the ISI are not ghost what they do must leave behind some clues of their involvement.

yep u r right... one can get clues.... which by their nature most of the time have probabilities assigned... high or low depends on the clues, but not most of the time are sufficient by law of court...

I guess when countries like India and Pakistan declare that they got proofs against each other.. all they mean is that they got strong clues leading to the incident or perpetrators at the best....
 
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Just watching the latest "Taliban" video from Afhganistan, I was thinking it is so easy for Western media to play the propaganda war.

They can dress up anybody behind a face covering cloth and make any statement claiming to be Taliban or Al Qaeda.
 
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