Hamas Kills 6 Suspected Israel Collaborators: Witnesses (GRAPHIC PHOTO)

[Sasquatch]

Your posts are great buddy, keep it up.

I like to read military history too, but usually only about regional conflicts involving China.

You're right though, we should be studying all conflicts not just ours.

It is best to try and learn about all conflicts I will remind you that the USA during the first gulf war 1991 learned many things during the Syria-Israel 1982 confrontation, not to mention the PLA learned from the USA Gulf war experience.

read this if you have any time

Chinese Lessons from Other Peoples' Wars
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB1090.pdf

 

[Cherokee]

I see @Hu Songshan is also a Heavyweight Debater . Great Inputs . Made this thread More Interesting for silent readers like us .

 

[Solomon2]

...would be interesting to see what would happen if Soviet Troops did enter the war.

Are you aware that once President Nixon learned that the Soviets had airborne troops ready to deploy he raised the war alert status of U.S. forces worldwide? The Soviets then stood down. Had they persisted the total destruction of their troop transports by Israel's Air Force would likely have been the most peaceable outcome imaginable.

 

[Sasquatch]

Are you aware that once President Nixon learned that the Soviets had airborne troops ready to deploy he raised the war alert status of U.S. forces worldwide? The Soviets then stood down. Had they persisted the total destruction of their troop transports by Israel's Air Force would likely have been the most peaceable outcome imaginable.

Of the course Yom Kippur war almost brought WWIII if Nicklegrass did not happen Israel would have used Nuclear Weapons and are you aware that Soviet Troops also fought on the Golan front ? If I remember correctly an Israeli soldier said to have captured a Russian, during the attrition war Israelis shot down Soviet Pilots.

 

[Mercenary]

Of the course Yom Kippur war almost brought WWIII if Nicklegrass did not happen Israel would have used Nuclear Weapons and are you aware that Soviet Troops also fought on the Golan front ? If I remember correctly an Israeli soldier said to have captured a Russian, during the attrition war Israelis shot down Soviet Pilots.

I disagree with the NickleGrass part.

Operation Nicklegrass is this big myth used by Arabs to show how they lost the War. The War started on October 6th. By October 10th, Israel had launched its offensive in Golan and pushed the Syrians out of the Golan. Egypt under pressure from Russia and Syria launched its attack towards the Sinai Passes on October 14th.

Operation Nicklegrass began on October 14th.

So by October 14th, Israelis had thrown out the Syrians from the Golan and defeated the Egyptian Armored Attack into the passes. And thus Nicklegrass didn't play a decisive role. All it did was allow the Israelis to expend what they had more freely.

The role that it could have played was creating more Israeli arrogance as once they had encircled the Egyptian 3rd Army they were proceeding to attack the Egyptian 2nd Army and under considerable pressure were they forced to stop.

If Operation NickleGrass had never happened, Israel would have still encircled the Egyptian 3rd Army and then accepted Sadat's call for a ceasefire rather than ignoring it and going forward to try to encircle the Egyptian 2nd Army as well.

 

[Cloakedvessel]

Gaza: Arbitrary Arrests, Torture, Unfair Trials

Criminal Justice Reforms Urgently Needed

(Gaza City) – Palestinians face serious abuses in the Hamas criminal justice system, including arbitrary arrest, incommunicado detention, torture, and unfair trials. Since it took control of Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed at least three men convicted on the basis of “confessions” apparently obtained under torture.

The 43-page report, “Abusive System: Criminal Justice in Gaza,” documents extensive violations by Hamas security services, including warrantless arrests, failure to inform families promptly of detainees’ whereabouts, and subjecting detainees to torture. It also documents violations of detainees’ rights by prosecutors and courts. Military courts frequently try civilians, in violation of international law. Prosecutors often deny detainees access to a lawyer, and courts have failed to uphold detainees’ due process rights in cases of warrantless arrest and abusive interrogations, Human Rights Watch found.

“After five years of Hamas rule in Gaza, its criminal justice system reeks of injustice, routinely violates detainees’ rights, and grants impunity to abusive security services,” said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “Hamas should stop the kinds of abuses that Egyptians, Syrians, and others in the region have risked their lives to bring to an end.”

The Hamas authorities have failed to investigate and prosecute abusive security officials, and have in practice granted impunity from prosecution to officials in the Internal Security service in particular, Human Rights Watch said.

Hamas should urgently reform Gaza’s criminal justice system to end arbitrary arrests, ensure that detainees have prompt access to lawyers, end prosecutions of civilians in military courts, and hold accountable security officials who commit violations, Human Rights Watch said. The executions of people whose confessions were obtained under torture is a clear signal that authorities should immediately impose a moratorium on, if not abolish, the death penalty. Hamas authorities should also promptly, impartially, and thoroughly investigate all credible allegations of abuse in detention.

Human Rights Watch interviewed victims of abuses and their families, lawyers, judges, Palestinian rights groups in Gaza, and reviewed case files and court judgments. Witnesses reported that the Internal Security agency, the drugs unit of the civil police force, and police detectives all torture detainees. The Independent Commission for Human Rights, a non-partisan Palestinian rights group that also monitors Palestinian Authority abuses in the West Bank, reported receiving 147 complaints of torture by these three Hamas forces in 2011 alone.

GAZA: Arbitrary Arrests, Torture, Unfair Trials - YouTube

In one case Human Rights Watch documented, in August 2008, members of Hamas’s armed wing, the al-Qassam brigades, arrested and tortured Abdel Karim Shrair at an unknown location for three weeks before transferring him to the custody of the police, his family and lawyers told Human Rights Watch. The military prosecutor transferred Shrair to the Internal Security agency, where interrogators tortured him again and prevented him from seeing his family for weeks, the family and lawyers said. Shrair’s mother said that when she was finally able to see him, his legs and face were bruised, his feet were swollen, his hands and arms had rope marks, and his chest had burn marks.

The prosecution charged him with collaborating with Israel, in part on the basis of confessions that appear to have been coerced under torture, Human Rights Watch said. His lawyer said that during military court hearings on his case, Shrair had visible bruises and scars and was incontinent. Yet the military courts did not adequately address Shrair’s claims of torture, and held that his arbitrary arrest and detention had been retroactively “corrected” when the al-Qassam brigades transferred him to police custody.

A firing squad executed Shrair in May 2011. His mother said that Hamas authorities had prohibited the family from burying him, and that police beat her when she tried to hold his body during the interment.

In a meeting with Human Rights Watch on September 26, the deputy director of the Internal Security agency, Mohammed Lafi, said that the agency had a complaints department that dealt with allegations of abuses, but that it had not investigated Shrair’s case because it had never received a written complaint. Human Rights Watch had publicly documented the case in May 2011 and asked the authorities for further information in July 2012, but received no response.

In the cases Human Rights Watch examined, the military judiciary did not throw out any criminal cases against detainees because of due process violations, and ignored or failed to investigate credibly detainees’ claims that they had been tortured. Human Rights Watch documented two other cases in which Hamas executed prisoners whom judicial authorities sentenced without adequately reviewing credible claims that their convictions were based on evidence obtained under torture.

Three criminal defense lawyers told Human Rights Watch that they had themselves been arbitrarily arrested by Hamas security forces; two said they were abused or tortured in detention

The authorities in Gaza have allowed the directors of three Palestinian human rights groups ad hoc access to detainees in prisons and at Internal Security detention facilities. Hamas should follow this positive step by ensuring prompt access to detainees by their lawyers, and by regularizing and expanding access to detainees by human rights organizations. The Gaza authorities should also lift their prohibition against access to detainees by the Independent Commission for Human Rights, which Hamas officials have dismissed as biased.

Hamas officials claim to have disciplined hundreds of members of the security services for abuses since the group took power in 2007, but Hamas has not made public details about the officials involved or, in many cases, information about the abuses or punishment involved. In meetings in Gaza on September 24 through 26 with officials from the ministries of foreign affairs, justice, and interior, Human Rights Watch urged the authorities to publish verifiable information about accountability for abuses.

Most of those disciplined were apparently members of the civil police force. Officials in Gaza told Human Rights Watch that members of the Internal Security agency had been disciplined in a few cases. None of the officials said they knew of any criminal prosecutions of Internal Security officials, despite consistent allegations of severe abuse.

Lafi, the deputy Internal Security director, said that four Internal Security officers had been demoted by one rank or a half-rank and transferred elsewhere after the death in custody of Nihad al-Dabaki in February 2009. An internal investigation found that al-Dabaki had died as a result of cold and his poor health, officials said. However, investigations at the time by the Independent Commission for Human Rights stated that its field workers observed “clear marks of torture” on al-Dabaki’s body.

In another case, ‘Adel Razeq died in Internal Security custody in April 2011. Lafi said that after an investigation, the Internal Security agency fired an official who had exceeded his authority by slapping Razeq to rouse him after he had fallen onto a chair and injured himself. However, family members told Human Rights Watch that Razeq’s body had bruises on the head and legs, and broken ribs, that he had been arrested without a warrant, and that they had been unable to meet with him in detention.

Former detainees who alleged they were abused by security services told Human Rights Watch that they despaired of finding justice. Several were afraid to describe what had happened to them in custody, even on condition that their identities would be kept confidential. Some men said they had needed medical care due to torture and sought to obtain medical records as evidence that they had been tortured, but that hospital officials refused to provide them.

Hamas’s rival in the West Bank, the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority, arrests and detains Palestinians arbitrarily, including Hamas members or sympathizers, and similarly subjects detainees to torture and abuse. The intra-Palestinian political rivalry remains a significant factor behind many Hamas abuses against detainees in Gaza, Human Rights Watch found.

Some of the Gaza abuse cases documented were against people detained on suspicion of collaborating with Israel or the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Collaboration is a serious crime under Palestinian law, but suspicion of collaboration does notjustify torture or other abuse.

Human Rights Watch’s findings are also consistent with increasing reports of abuse by security forces in Gaza against detainees accused of non-political crimes, including people accused of drug offenses and fraud.

Human rights lawyers in Gaza said that they have continued to receive the same kinds of allegations of abuse from victims since Hamas and Fatah announced a political reconciliation in May 2011.

The abusive practices of Hamas’s security services flout human rights norms that Hamas has pledged to uphold, Human Rights Watch said. These practices also violate Palestinian laws that require police to obtain judicial arrest and search warrants, and prohibit torture and the use of evidence obtained under torture.

Hamas grew out of the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. Human Rights Watch said that Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, whose political arm holds the country’s presidency, should pressure Hamas leaders to end the kinds of abuses, including arbitrary detention and torture, that they themselves suffered under former president Hosni Mubarak.

“There is ample evidence that Hamas security services are torturing people in custody with impunity and denying prisoners their rights,” Stork said. “The Gaza authorities should stop ignoring the abuse and ensure that the justice system respects Palestinians’ rights.”

Gaza: Arbitrary Arrests, Torture, Unfair Trials | Human Rights Watch

The report:

Abusive System | Human Rights Watch

 

[Developereo]

You appear to know very little of Bernard Lewis and his writings.

I know plenty enough to determine that he has a strong anti-Islam bias.

That's not the legal argument you're ignoring, but the whole structure of the post-WWI settlement. Apparently you find the legality indisputable.

As you yourself admitted, the legality is based on the premise that Palestine belongs to Jews because they lived there 2000 years ago. Everything else is built around that ideological premise. As I mentioned above, that premise stems from European guilt towards Jews since lots of people lived in that region throughout history, including the Arabs.

Jews were already a majority in Jerusalem in the mid-nineteenth century

Jerusalem is a pinpoint in wider Palestine. In Palestine as a whole, Jews were a miniscule minority until the waves of migration sanctioned by Britain were initiated.

and the primary source of population growth in Palestine by 1914.

Indeed, the recolonization had started full force.

It was thought this status would hold for a long time; only the aggressiveness of the Arabs and the post-WWII weakness of the British compelled the British to abandon administering the Mandate. The only measure left to the Jews to protect themselves was to reach for full statehood. Had the Arabs not behaved badly Britain would have remained in charge a long time and all the Arabs would have remained in Palestine rather than a small fraction. Israel might never have existed as a state with a predominantly Jewish character at all.

Completely false.

BBC documents that Britain's support for Jewish statehood had nothing to do with Arabs, but due to a misunderstanding by the British government that Russian Bolsheviks were Jewish. Britain wanted to grease the wheels for good relations with the emerging Russia.

Also, Jews had been preparing for statehood long before 1948. Everything, including a military, had been prepared beforehand and was in place when statehood was declared.

You seem to be quite aware that the area called Palestine was accepted as the Jews ancestral land, that Jews lived there continuously in small numbers since the devastation of Roman times, and that nationalities were concentrated into states rather than dispersed after the collapse of empires. The Germans had to move from Russia to Germany, the Poles concentrate in Poland, the Hungarians and Romanians separate, and so on. Israel might have been unique only in the sense that the population movement there covered all three empires, not just one or two.

All these other ethnicities were already majorities in the regions which became their country. Further migration of people only added to the existing majority. Israel is the only case where a country was reserved for 7% of the population, and even that 7% figure was after several waves of Jewish migration with the specific purpose of shoring up the numbers.

What are "Palestinian rights"? You don't argue that the "Palestinians" are descendants of people who revolted and thus forfeited their civil and property rights under Ottoman law and practice.

The Ottomans were irrelevant after their defeat by the Brits. It was the Brits (and the French) who were divvying up the region and the model everywhere else was to give the land to the (majority) people actually living there.

What rights are you fighting for - the rights of Muslims to act as a mob to steal property, engage in terrorism, and commit genocide? Are those really the rights and values Pakistanis should be seeking right now? If so, why should young Pakistani men even bother with the Palestinian cause when they could behave the same way to assert their "rights" at home?

It seems you can't write a post without spewing off-topic bile at Pakistan. Try to stick to the topic.

 

[Solomon2]

I know plenty enough to determine that he has a strong anti-Islam bias.

Bing! Minus ten points!

As you yourself admitted, the legality is based on the premise that Palestine belongs to Jews because they lived there 2000 years ago.

That's not legality but the moral reason for permitting the Jews to return. The legality of the Jews living in Palestine need not be based on that but 100% on legitimate property transactions.

Completely false. BBC documents that Britain's support for Jewish statehood had nothing to do with Arabs, but due to a misunderstanding by the British government that Russian Bolsheviks were Jewish. Britain wanted to grease the wheels for good relations with the emerging Russia.

You put your trust in a BBC documentary on the Israel-Arab conflict? You can be duped that easily?

The reasons Britain had for supporting Zionism are manifold and complex. You need to read more widely on this subject matter.

Also, Jews had been preparing for statehood long before 1948. Everything, including a military, had been prepared beforehand and was in place when statehood was declared.

The Jews of Palestine - at that time, universally referred to as "Palestinians" - realized they had to rely on themselves for self-protection by the mid-1930s. Britain appeared to be trying to slide out of its Mandate commitments by fomenting Arab violence upon Jews - the old colonial technique of splitting subjects into blocs that fight between themselves, then stepping in as the peace and order intermediary and administrator. Britain was also extremely worried about the loyalty of its Muslim Indian troops at the merest hint that Palestine would achieve independence under Jewish rule.

The Indians - your grandfathers - had already been corrupted by Arab blandishments into being anti-Zionists by the 1930s. They justified it then and even for a long time after 1948 to Westerners on the grounds that there were more Arabs in the world than Jews so regardless of the fact that the Jews' claims and property transactions were indisputable, the "sensible" thing to do was to side with the Arabs.

Since 1948 Israel's exports have exploded while the collected non-oil exports of Muslim Arab countries is less than that of Spain. Your grandfathers made a whopping misjudgment and missed out on sharing the fruits of Israel's successes.

All these other ethnicities were already majorities in the regions which became their country.

No. Lots of folks had to shift around.

Israel is the only case where a country was reserved for 7% of the population, and even that 7% figure was after several waves of Jewish migration with the specific purpose of shoring up the numbers.

You seem to think that even the uninhabited (and until Jews improved it, uninhabitable land) somehow belonged to the Arabs. Not so; much of it was Ottoman "state" land, and after that the Brits disposed of it as they wished. The Jews could not displace Arabs unless they were willing to sell, and Arabs did so at great price. Nevertheless, the Brits decided (and the League of Nations agreed, along with a reluctant Zionist leadership) to shave off 70% of the Mandate and make it an Arab emirate excluded from the Jewish settlement provisions of the Mandate. This was Transjordan, and the Brits presented it to their recently evicted ally from Hijaz, Hussein. Hussein promptly violated the terms of the Mandate and evicted 1100 Jewish families, distributing their property to his supporters. But you can't bring yourself to voice any opposition to Arab abuse of Jews, can you?

The Ottomans were irrelevant after their defeat by the Brits.

The Caliph was politically relevant until Ataturk and his supporters nullified the Caliphate. The British negotiated with him at San Remo about the terms of the middle east settlement, as detailed in the Treaty of Sevres and confirmed in the later British Mandate. But a previous Caliph had expressed his opinion on the matter a decade earlier in his declaration to the Zionist leader, Herzl: the Jews would not be allowed to establish a separate autonomous vilayet because the Arabs fought loyally for the Empire. Once the Arabs embraced their role as British-aligned rebels in WWI that restraint disappeared. Furthermore, as a matter of State it seems unlikely that the head of a multi-ethnic empire would eagerly hand over domination of such a large region to only one of his previous subject ethnicities.

 

[kaykay]

recently i came to this video on youtube.......an eye opener i say..!!

Mosab Hassan Yousef: Powerful Speech during a Religious Extremism Debate @ the Museum of Tolerance - YouTube

 

[Developereo]

That's not legality but the moral reason for permitting the Jews to return. The legality of the Jews living in Palestine need not be based on that but 100% on legitimate property transactions.

You keep shifting goal posts and conflating different concepts. No one is denying that Jews bought some land legally. That does NOT entitle them to demand the whole region become a Jewish homeland.

Just because I go out and buy some land in outback Australia does not mean that Australia should now become a Muslim country.

You put your trust in a BBC documentary on the Israel-Arab conflict? You can be duped that easily?

The documentary includes first-hand interviews with people who were actually involved in making decisions back then. And it has more Israeli interviewees than Arab ones.

Since 1948 Israel's exports have exploded while the collected non-oil exports of Muslim Arab countries is less than that of Spain. Your grandfathers made a whopping misjudgment and missed out on sharing the fruits of Israel's successes.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

No. Lots of folks had to shift around.

Again, you obfuscate. The simple fact is that those countries were formed around the majority ethnic groups. Of course, the Brits also did the divide and conquer routine by splitting tribes across countries, but still the majority factor was there.

You seem to think that even the uninhabited (and until Jews improved it, uninhabitable land) somehow belonged to the Arabs.

That's how it works in the rest of the world. Are you saying that every square inch of every country is inhabited?

But you can't bring yourself to voice any opposition to Arab abuse of Jews, can you?

I never denied that Jews were abused by Arabs. The discussion here is about the legitimacy of declaring a Jewish homeland when only 7% of the population was Jewish.

The Caliph was politically relevant until Ataturk and his supporters nullified the Caliphate. The British negotiated with him at San Remo about the terms of the middle east settlement, as detailed in the Treaty of Sevres and confirmed in the later British Mandate. But a previous Caliph had expressed his opinion on the matter a decade earlier in his declaration to the Zionist leader, Herzl: the Jews would not be allowed to establish a separate autonomous vilayet because the Arabs fought loyally for the Empire. Once the Arabs embraced their role as British-aligned rebels in WWI that restraint disappeared. Furthermore, as a matter of State it seems unlikely that the head of a multi-ethnic empire would eagerly hand over domination of such a large region to only one of his previous subject ethnicities.

There is no question that the Brits back-stabbed the Arabs. They had promised them an Arab country in exchange for their support against the Turks. Behind the scenes, they agreed with the French to divide up the region and to give Palestine to the Jews.

 

[Cloakedvessel]

Hamas promises amnesty to Palestinian collaborators spying for Israel | World news | guardian.co.uk

Hamas Sentences Man to Death for Spying for Israel

Gaza’s Hamas rulers sentence a local man to death by strangulation after he was convicted of spying for "an enemy entity".

Gaza’s Hamas terrorist rulers have sentenced a man to death for collaborating with Israel.

A statement on Sunday by Gaza’s Interior Ministry, translated by Arab affairs expert Dalit Halevi, had said that a military court had sentenced the man to death by strangulation. He was, according to the statement, convicted of providing information to “hostile elements” in Israel.

Badr al-Din Badr, head of the communications department of the Interior Ministry, said in the statement that the agent who was sentenced to death was arrested quite some time ago by security forces, and had failed to turn himself in as part of two previous campaigns that allowed agents to turn themselves into the government and be pardoned under certain conditions.

Earlier this month, Hamas rulers in Gaza launched a month-long campaign urging alleged Arab "collaborators" with Israel to turn themselves in as a means of being granted leniency.

"We announce the opening of the door to repentance for remaining collaborators and for all those who have fallen into the traps set by the enemy's intelligence services," interior ministry spokesman Islam Shahwan told reporters on March 12.

"We urge them to return to the bosom of their people and their families," he said, noting that the offer of clemency was open until April 11.

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) released a statement on Sunday, in which it confirmed that a man named F.A.A. was sentenced to death after being convicted of spying in favor of an enemy entity.

The organization noted that this sentence is the first of its kind in 2013. The number of death sentences issued by the Palestinian Authority (PA) since its establishment in 1994 is 132, including 106 death sentences issued in Gaza and 26 in the PA-assigned areas of Judea and Samaria, the organization said. 46 of these death sentences have been issued since 2007.

In November, during Israel’s counterterrorism Operation Pillar of Defense in Gaza, the Hamas government executed seven such collaborators without trial.

Six of the seven were publicly executed, with witnesses saying the men were pushed from a vehicle and shot. Pictures from Gaza showed the body of one of the men being dragged behind a motorcycle.

Hamas was publicly condemned for the summary executions, and its political bureau issued an official apology.

The terror group later announced it would establish a committee that will investigate the circumstances surrounding the execution of the seven.

Hamas Sentences Man to Death for Spying for Israel - Middle East - News - Israel National News

 

[Hussein]

"Zionists and wahabis are the last people in the world that I would ever support b/c they both hate me"

As I recall, under the Shah Israel and Iran were the best of friends, and even under the mullahs during the Iran-Iraq war Israel supplied weapons, intelligence, spare parts, and other supplies. Persian Jews are the nicest people and have fond memories of the Iran that was. Is it really the Zionists fault that you've absorbed some of the mullahs' vile propaganda?

I agree with you about your points. Iranian Jews like Christians , they are Iranians and an important part of our culture.

Khomeiny was so much pro Palestine he entered in the anti zionism propaganda like some in Iran.
Most people still don't care even if our tv , newspaper and even some of our courses in school are anti zionism.

People want peace and respect, as said Abii.

You know we suffer a lot about all these people who hate us: from KSA and people either saying we are not muslims or the worst creatures on earth, or the few US movies who paint us as barbarians.
They don't even know than revolution itself was not an anti country revolution or fanatic revolution at all. If people vote for Khomeiny it was because it wa sa total miss of morality in our country before revolution. People were not fanatic at all.

Anyway Abii these acts are barbarians and showing a terror action .
I would say the same for some US troops acting bad in Iraq or the Fallujah killings. We have all our bad actions but it seems Hamas doesn't want democracy and let people decide for their future without them.