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The worst case scenario will be LCA MKII will not get ready before LCA MK I production ends, in that case IAF can go for more LCA MK I or wait for LCA MK II.

That would be a worst case scenario for the industry, but not for IAF, since they get Rafale at the same time and later FGFA, so any further delay of LCA would only result in more Rafale or FGFA orders, but would be a credible threat to LCA program as a whole. That's why I hope the industry finally comes to senses and make the upgrade simple and not a show off.

You don't need AESA, Supercruise, Stealth feature, 100KN engine for point defense role.

Again, that's why these were never required by the forces when the project started and most of this are not even required today. The stealth feature talk only came up when DRDOs Mr Saraswat publically was dreaming about an MK3 version, the 100kN engine is a possible requirement for AMCA, not for LCA and again, not stated by IAF, since IAF is not involved in AMCA at this concept stage.
The only point where IAF and IN are a problem for LCA are, one that IAF insists in modifications that could be done even when the fighter is inducted, or that IN is insisting in a fully fledged naval version, when only a tech demo version is needed. Both causes delays of the program right now, but are not the main reasons.


hate to quote JF-17 Example but it uses German software defined radios so it can communicate with western aircrafts. Is it similar kind of arrangement used in LCA? In future Rafael will join the fleet. Will western Link 16 type data link can directly communicate with your russian origin and indian origin aircraft and AWAC or you have to use intermediate solution to make them talk with each other?

As I told you before, India is developing own datalinks and comunication systems, to link AWACS and fighters of all origin with eachother. Link 16 can't comunicate with Russian or Chinese fighters, that's why MKIs couldn't be linked with NATO AWACS during Red Flag, or why PAF needs differnt links to comunicate with Chinese and US fighters.
 
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i havent heard usa or france giving you permission to use indian origin DL equipment on therir aircrafts?

Except P-8
India Buys C-130J-30 Hercules for Special Forces

he Indian government decided not to sign the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which resulted in the exclusion of high precision GPS and other sensitive equipment. However the IAF added similar equipment produced indigenously , to the aircraft after delivery.
 
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Weapon pods as mentioned are not part of the fighter, but external payloads, that's why they don't create any aerodynamic changes to the fighter itself. We could develop them and even flight test them fitted on MKI, whithout an apporval of Russia, just like we flight tested Astra missiles. The point where Russia comes into play is, when we need to modify the fighter or certain techs, for example integrating the missile to the radar for launch tests, or if certain wireings, or software changes are need, or in case of Brahmos, if the weight limits of the harpoints needs to be changed, by modifing the airframe in that area...
But a weapon pod is not that heavy and the only integration that might be needed comes, when we would test a fully developed version, that can open it's doors and launch weapons. To make the pilot able to do so, changes of the fighters are needed and that would be done with the Russians.

Yeah!!! You need to understand only one point that no matter in how many ways you try to twist the argument in the end you will have to accept (the way you did in the bold part) that any change especially major modifications like change of pylon, internal carriage or even a weapons pod or upgrades will require approval and help from the Russians. Does this help us? only in the short term, but when it comes to next gen upgrades or next gen fighter, we will always be dependent on russians or France if we dont fund our indigenous programs like LCA and AMCA.

The OEM benefits from mdoifications, because it makes the fighter itself more capable and more interesting for export customers.
India for example funded the final integration of canards and TVC to the SU 30MK, which then resulted in high interest of this version on the export market.India beeing able to do parts of the maintenance for Russian fighters is a benefit for Asian customers like Malaysia, just like future Indian weapons would be offered to these export customers as alternatives to the Russian weapon.
And that fully developed weaponpods would increase the capability of the Flanker dramatically should be a no brainer, be it for any export customer for Su 30s, or even for Russian forces itself as explained earlier, but since you don't want to look at it in an unbiased way, it is not surprising that you don't want to understand it.

How did it help India? do we own the rights to sell the plane? we funded the programe and now russia is selling the fighter and that makes you merrier?

Again what ever you are suggesting is not going to make india self reliant in making future gen fighters. As per your logic India should just be content in making minor modifications for the foreign fighters that makes them slightly potetnt but also require approval and help of the OEM. How does it help us when it comes to next gen planes? it does not and that is why we need programs like LCA and AMCA. Now India doesnt require any foreign fighter in the light category because of LCA program. In the future, same will be the case with AMCA programe making us self reliant in the medium category fighters.

If we follow your logic, India will always be dependet on Russia and France for next gen fighetrs.

Looks like cleaning the aircraft ............:what:

RAIN proof test
 
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Yeah!!! You need to understand only one point that no matter in how many ways you try to twist the argument in the end you will have to accept (the way you did in the bold part) that any change especially major modifications like change of pylon

I don't have to twist anything, you just need to read unbiased and try to understand things! You talked about airframe modifications of the fighter, which are not necessary when you add an external payload to a hardpoint. All that is necessary and which I am saying from the start, is changing wiring's and software updates. That is neither a big deal, nor an issue for Russia or France (remember Kargil, when we integrated LGBs with Israeli help, or as I said Astra tests on MKI).

So it remains true, that we could improve our MKIs with such a development, without waiting that the Russians come up with it. Just like this upgrade would make IAF operationally more capable, or that it's easier than developing another stealth fighter type for them.

How did it help India? do we own the rights to sell the plane? we funded the programe and now russia is selling the fighter and that makes you merrier?

You asked how the OEM (Russia/Sukhoi) benefited and that's what I answered. India instead benefits, if we can offer alternative techs and services for Su 30 operators, be it Samtel cockpit displays, DARE EW sensors, Sudarshan LGBs and Astra missiles, or as a stealthy weapon pods. All this can be offered to Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam..., besides the upgrades that Russia offers them, just like how we selected French and Israeli parts instead of Russian once. The indigenous stuff we develop and integrate into MKI, the more our industry can benefit as well.
Just like Israel benefits from selling the modifications they developed for F16 and F15 to Singapore or S. Korea for example.


Again what ever you are suggesting is not going to make india self reliant in making future gen fighters.

Which again shows your level of bias, because the opposite is the case and can already be seen!

Why do we develop Astra missile? Because we want to integrate it into MKI and Mig 29Ks, to be less reliant on Russian missile quality and cost increases when we order them.

Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle.

Why do we jouin co-developments with them on 50/50 basis? Because we like the highly capable systems that they offer, but want to be able to modify them according to our requirements and increasingly with our own parts (navigation systems and seekers in Brahmos, materials, avionics...in FGFA...).

Not to mention that it makes IAF and IN more capable, if we can add good capabilities to their Russian fighters, that they have to operate for the next 30 years, instead of being dependent on Russian development only.


All this makes us constantly less dependent on Russia, but only to the extend that we really can do it. We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!
That's why upgrading our foreign fighters with higher indigenous content, besides doing own low end and joint NG developments, would be the easiest, fastest and most effective way for us to improve our self and get less reliant!

The problem is, when you look at things just from one side and without an open mind, you obviously will only come to such wrong conclusions. That's why more rational thinking and less blinding with pride would be important for us, especially for the Indian defence industry!
 
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I don't have to twist anything, you just need to read unbiased and try to understand things! You talked about airframe modifications of the fighter, which are not necessary when you add an external payload to a hardpoint. All that is necessary and which I am saying from the start, is changing wiring's and software updates. That is neither a big deal, nor an issue for Russia or France (remember Kargil, when we integrated LGBs with Israeli help, or as I said Astra tests on MKI).

So it remains true, that we could improve our MKIs with such a development, without waiting that the Russians come up with it. Just like this upgrade would make IAF operationally more capable, or that it's easier than developing another stealth fighter type for them.



You asked how the OEM (Russia/Sukhoi) benefited and that's what I answered. India instead benefits, if we can offer alternative techs and services for Su 30 operators, be it Samtel cockpit displays, DARE EW sensors, Sudarshan LGBs and Astra missiles, or as a stealthy weapon pods. All this can be offered to Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam..., besides the upgrades that Russia offers them, just like how we selected French and Israeli parts instead of Russian once. The indigenous stuff we develop and integrate into MKI, the more our industry can benefit as well.
Just like Israel benefits from selling the modifications they developed for F16 and F15 to Singapore or S. Korea for example.




Which again shows your level of bias, because the opposite is the case and can already be seen!

Why do we develop Astra missile? Because we want to integrate it into MKI and Mig 29Ks, to be less reliant on Russian missile quality and cost increases when we order them.

Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle.

Why do we jouin co-developments with them on 50/50 basis? Because we like the highly capable systems that they offer, but want to be able to modify them according to our requirements and increasingly with our own parts (navigation systems and seekers in Brahmos, materials, avionics...in FGFA...).

Not to mention that it makes IAF and IN more capable, if we can add good capabilities to their Russian fighters, that they have to operate for the next 30 years, instead of being dependent on Russian development only.


All this makes us constantly less dependent on Russia, but only to the extend that we really can do it. We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!
That's why upgrading our foreign fighters with higher indigenous content, besides doing own low end and joint NG developments, would be the easiest, fastest and most effective way for us to improve our self and get less reliant!

The problem is, when you look at things just from one side and without an open mind, you obviously will only come to such wrong conclusions. That's why more rational thinking and less blinding with pride would be important for us, especially for the Indian defence industry!

After all your rants and twisted arguments, the fact is for any kind of major modifications India has to send latests generation fighters like SU30 and Mig 29 to Russia and same will be the case with FGFA which is Indianised version of PAKFA. There will always be strings attached when it comes to latest generation of foreign origin fighters and there is a limit to what you can do with them.

Today India is able to make system modification like mission computers and displays because of the LCA program. LCA spinoffs are going into SU30s and other foreign fighters. NAVAL LCA program will give us the capability to design Indian naval fighter and replace russian systems, which is not possible if we only concentrate on modifying mission computers and wirings of Mig 29s as per your logic.

For how long do you plan to buy and make minor modifications to foreign fighters? In the end you will have to jump into fighter design, radar design and engine design. To be independent, the major systems like the airframe, radar and engines has to be indigenous and that is the reason India is investing in AMCA , LRDE RADAR and Kaveri engine. Knowledge to develop all these technologies does not come with any purchase like Rafael or co development or JV like PAKFA, but with in house R&D programs like LCA, AMCA, Kaveri and LRDE Radar.




We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today. But we still are far behind in design, radar, engine and weapon developments, which means the core fields and that's where we remain to be dependent on foreign help, preferably from partners and not just foreign vendors that want to sell us something!


Yeah, we can develop a 4th + gen fighter today thanks to LCA program and ADA is concentrating on AMCA that will allow us to develop 5th + gen fighter technologies.


To summarize,

Advantage of following your logic, i.e., minor system development:

Why do we develop and integrate own cockpit displays, spare parts, or insist in as much parts being produced in India? Because we want to be less reliant on Russian after sale support and cost increases during the life-cycle.

Disadvantage: For any major future upgrade like radar and avioinics, engines and frame modifications or next gen fighter RUN to the original OEM.


Advantage of investing in major system development like indigenous fighter programs like LCA in your words:

We can develop a 4th generation fighter today, we can develop even 4.5 gen techs, materials and coatings today.

i.e., self reliance in making a light weight 4+ gen fighter, lower life cycle cost, hassle-less future upgrades and Knowledge gained will ease the R&D for next gen fighter.


In the short term, purchase or JV is ok , but for our long term interest, we must invest in indigenous programs.
 
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