HAL Looks To Hulk-Smash IAF's Avro Replacement Effort

[Killswitch]

HAL needs to focus on the projects it already has. It cannot even handle the current portfolio.

 

[MilSpec]

A very foolish move by HAL and Mr Srinivasan.... HAL should keep out of this avro replacement deal, the numbers are too Low, the marigins are low and there is no scope for export of such platform if HAL comes up with one.... Let's see how many takers this will find in the private sector.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

@axisofevil

you are right. We need to improve everything from the grassroot level itself. In long term, our country will ripe the benefits.

@sandy_3126

Although I believe its about time HALs monopoly must end, but privatisation also has its own evils. Untill & unless Private players are only willing to joint venture with foreign partners, i dont think it will be benefitial in the long term. Untill & unless private players invests a lot on R&D of next gen weapon systems, we will leg behind. Theres no point in encouraging
private players to go DRDOs root of tech transfer & joint ventures.

Yes, for a start, they shall be allowed to enter into a partnership with foreign firms, but within a limited timeline, let me say 15 years, they have to produce something indeginious exclusively without foreign support.

For inclusive growth & sustainable development, University, IIT students should be encouraged to do minor defence research like making small UAVs etc. Trend is still there, about time govt takes initiative to make it a fashion.

 

[MilSpec]

@axisofevil

you are right. We need to improve everything from the grassroot level itself. In long term, our country will ripe the benefits.

@sandy_3126

Although I believe its about time HALs monopoly must end, but privatisation also has its own evils. Untill & unless Private players are only willing to joint venture with foreign partners, i dont think it will be benefitial in the long term. Untill & unless private players invests a lot on R&D of next gen weapon systems, we will leg behind. Theres no point in encouraging
private players to go DRDOs root of tech transfer & joint ventures.

Yes, for a start, they shall be allowed to enter into a partnership with foreign firms, but within a limited timeline, let me say 15 years, they have to produce something indeginious exclusively without foreign support.

For inclusive growth & sustainable development, University, IIT students should be encouraged to do minor defence research like making small UAVs etc. Trend is still there, about time govt takes initiative to make it a fashion.

Dear,

I am a big fan of all private sectors coming in and kicking PSU's like HAL, BEL OFB and D-Labs like Drdo and NAL to the curb, but before I start singing sonnets of the private sector, show me one private organisation in manufacturing sectors which can stand up in international market on their own intellectual capital. Just one apple or a sony or a yamaha or a volkswagon or a toyota or a hitachi? just one who is at absolute top of it's game....

When Private sector organisation starts to take up projects like home made FLIR's which wont have a market of more than 1000 units or AESA radars that will have a book order of 200 odd units, then I will be more than happy to welcome them with open arms. The bottom line is private sector wants to invest minimum amounts in R&D in a low margin low quantity market and thus is not existent in the market. Mahindra has the capital to put in a scorpio or a 500 but not on a FICV, or a UAV (not that college project crap, but a reaper). Guess who does waste it's capital in time and again working on marginless projects time and again and gets kicked by the media and it's own nation time and again? any gueses....

It is the frankenstien that the villagers are out to burn.....So I will do the politically correct thing to do, stand in the crowd and torch the ugly giant....No Questions Asked.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Dear,

I am a big fan of all private sectors coming in and kicking PSU's like HAL, BEL OFB and D-Labs like Drdo and NAL to the curb, but before I start singing sonnets of the private sector, show me one private organisation in manufacturing sectors which can stand up in international market on their own intellectual capital. Just one apple or a sony or a yamaha or a volkswagon or a toyota or a hitachi? just one who is at absolute top of it's game....

When Private sector organisation starts to take up projects like home made FLIR's which wont have a market of more than 1000 units or AESA radars that will have a book order of 200 odd units, then I will be more than happy to welcome them with open arms. The bottom line is private sector wants to invest minimum amounts in R&D in a low margin low quantity market and thus is not existent in the market. Mahindra has the capital to put in a scorpio or a 500 but not on a FICV, or a UAV (not that college project crap, but a reaper). Guess who does waste it's capital in time and again working on marginless projects time and again and gets kicked by the media and it's own nation time and again? any gueses....

It is the frankenstien that the villagers are out to burn.....So I will do the politically correct thing to do, stand in the crowd and torch the ugly giant....No Questions Asked.

Nailed it bro.

Yeah I guess theres no point wasting money where there is no capital return. Maybe about time, govt should support them with funds. But I aint seeing it happen in the near future.

 

[sancho]

Who cares??? Just let private players to play a major role in Indian Defence industries. HAL is already filled with orders. For the greater good, its monopoly must end.

@sancho @Abingdonboy Your take on this fellas.

Of course the monopoly must end, that's why competition is the key, not just keeping HAL out. In this case, HAL was purposly taken out by Antony and Jaitley, to increase the interest of privat players, which however didn't respond as we hoped. Now we have a single vendor situation which is bad for India, because it puts the foreign vendor in advantage in negotiations. So if HAL teams up with a foreign vendor, we would at least have a real competition again and who wins should be decided by the best bid and the most benefits for India and not be a political decision for the interests of privat players.

The new DM is disappointing however he doesn't seem quite comfortable in his role and seems to be more about confrontation then actually getting the forces what they need.

Are you trying to take my job as basher of the MoD?

 

[anant_s]

Of course the monopoly must end, that's why competition is the key, not just keeping HAL out. In this case, HAL was purposly taken out by Antony and Jaitley, to increase the interest of privat players, which however didn't respond as we hoped. Now we have a single vendor situation which is bad for India, because it puts the foreign vendor in advantage in negotiations. So if HAL teams up with a foreign vendor, we would at least have a real competition again and who wins should be decided by the best bid and the most benefits for India and not be a political decision for the interests of privat players.



Are you trying to take my job as basher of the MoD?

Yes thats why HAL should be given more autonomy and managed professionally. Over the years protective environment has led to a situation where they sort of developed a cocoon for themselves where even mediocre performance didn't hurt them.
In an ideal world, there should be three or four top class manufacturers (JVs or solo) able to compete for any tender. The low cost manufacturing and trained man-power available in India should be leveraged by MNC looking to setup JVs for export potential too.
If that hap

 

[sancho]

Yes thats why HAL should be given more autonomy and managed professionally. Over the years protective environment has led to a situation where they sort of developed a cocoon for themselves where even mediocre performance didn't hurt them.
In an ideal world, there should be three or four top class manufacturers (JVs or solo) able to compete for any tender. The low cost manufacturing and trained man-power available in India should be leveraged by MNC looking to setup JVs for export potential too.
If that hap

My wish would be, that we don't always look to either one or the other side only and see PSUs and Indian privat players together as an advantage. We need the privat players for more efficiency, but we need the PSUs for real indigenous R&D too, since as Sandy pointed out, the privat players will invest only, if they see enough profit and not only for the benefit of Indian forces. So by combining PSUs and privat players in JVs, we get the best of both and that's what I hope will show in the TATA / DRDO Kestrel IFV, just as I would love to see HAL teaming up with privat players for future projects.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Of course the monopoly must end, that's why competition is the key, not just keeping HAL out. In this case, HAL was purposly taken out by Antony and Jaitley, to increase the interest of privat players, which however didn't respond as we hoped. Now we have a single vendor situation which is bad for India, because it puts the foreign vendor in advantage in negotiations. So if HAL teams up with a foreign vendor, we would at least have a real competition again and who wins should be decided by the best bid and the most benefits for India and not be a political decision for the interests of privat players.



Are you trying to take my job as basher of the MoD?

I never thought in that line. Thanxx for your view point mate.

 

[Dillinger]

Dear,

I am a big fan of all private sectors coming in and kicking PSU's like HAL, BEL OFB and D-Labs like Drdo and NAL to the curb, but before I start singing sonnets of the private sector, show me one private organisation in manufacturing sectors which can stand up in international market on their own intellectual capital. Just one apple or a sony or a yamaha or a volkswagon or a toyota or a hitachi? just one who is at absolute top of it's game....

When Private sector organisation starts to take up projects like home made FLIR's which wont have a market of more than 1000 units or AESA radars that will have a book order of 200 odd units, then I will be more than happy to welcome them with open arms. The bottom line is private sector wants to invest minimum amounts in R&D in a low margin low quantity market and thus is not existent in the market. Mahindra has the capital to put in a scorpio or a 500 but not on a FICV, or a UAV (not that college project crap, but a reaper). Guess who does waste it's capital in time and again working on marginless projects time and again and gets kicked by the media and it's own nation time and again? any gueses....

It is the frankenstien that the villagers are out to burn.....So I will do the politically correct thing to do, stand in the crowd and torch the ugly giant....No Questions Asked.

Given that the MOD is now questioning the very need for a replacement of the avros with the selected aircraft (not to mention the ever dreaded single vendor situation) TATA is going to be sore for a while.

 

[sancho]

Given that the MOD is now questioning the very need for a replacement of the avros with the selected aircraft (not to mention the ever dreaded single vendor situation) TATA is going to be sore for a while.

Well based on an Ajay Shukla report, that itself is based on expertise of unnamed Indian aerospace experts...

 

[Dillinger]

Well based on an Ajay Shukla report, that itself is based on expertise of unnamed Indian aerospace experts...

Nope. Its the MoD's assessment. And for good reason. Now to be fair, taking HAL out of the reckoning was never an issue. HAL or ADA or DRDO has enough on its plate. BUT the aircraft in contention is the problem. It simply does not fit as a one on one replacement for the Avro, specially given the Avro's role in the IAF as a simple officer transport craft.

 

[sancho]

Nope. Its the MoD's assessment.

That would be kind of strange don't you think? When the DAC cleared the tender several times without any issues and now, when the tender runs into problems the MoD didn't expected, suddenly they raise questions on the operational need? Which other „named“ source says that?

BUT the aircraft in contention is the problem. It simply does not fit as a one on one replacement for the Avro, specially given the Avro's role in the IAF as a simple officer transport craft.

Only if you limit your view on the Avro aircraft itself and not include the evolving capability and range of operations IAF's transport fleet has to do today. The C17 is far more capable than the IL76 it replaces, the C130J and MTA will be a class above the AN 32s they replace and add far more capabilities in tactical roles to IAF, with far more. The low end basically starts now where the AN 32 is today, with the C295 being able to take over the same roles, while the C130Js and MTA raises the bar even higher (more payload, more operational range like we saw in the disaster relief missions to the Philippines, or being able to carry light vehicles...) than what the AN 32 is able to do today. Whenever cost-effective logistical support is needed, be it troop or cargo transport, an Avro replacement can play a far greater role than the Avro could do so far.
Same goes for fighters, helicopters or even tankers too, where single role aircrafts will be replaced by more capable multi role once, to increase the operational use. You do more with less numbers, or twice as much with the same numbers, just depending on the capabilities of the aircraft and the current as well as future requirements of the operator.