HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

You mean for the Navy?

For the navy? No.

Ofcourse the 10-ton class (S-70B) and 12-ton class (H225M or CH148) NMRH requirements are separate. But I was talking about the smaller utility helicopter tender for which the Bell 429 was thought to be considered at one point.

When questioned why the indigenous LUH could not fulfill that role, the prevailing argument was that LUH, being single-engined, is not ideal for maritime roles.

The requirement for helicopters are-
IA - 259
IAF - 125
IN - 100
Tot = 484

IA and IAF will get 187 HAL LUH and 197 Ka-226T.
IN will get a different helicopter, the tender is yet to start.

Sengupta is behind times. He is referring to the naval tender for 56 utility helicopters from 2012, but that's changed to 100 now.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :

" the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), 440 of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade. "

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.

So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?

Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer

Tender is junked for the 56 ones.. it was the one in which Agusta and Eurocopter responded..

That has been now changed. See here is the original which has been modified now

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/page-6#post-8659781

187+197+56 = 440

here its marked as 50 - naval twin engine helicopter..and respondents were Eurocopter and Agusta.

Besides the forces the private sector requirement for LUH stands easily at another 300+ so all in all it will touch superb numbers once HAL can get it produced properly and maintain descent production rate from its plant

 

[Dandpatta]

Anyone here has a COMPARITIVE SCHEMATIC (sideview / frontview / top view) of the DHRUV and LUH? Thanks in advance.

 

[Aero]

@Dandpatta
LUH seem to be a leaner version of Dhruv
See the position of Vertical/Horizontal Stabilizers.
LUH (Side)

Dhruv

Front
Dhruv

 

[SOHEIL]

 

[Abingdonboy]

Excellent

But then this isn't the Official Flight ! ...yes?

"Official" flights are always made some time after the first atual flight. The LUH has been flying for a few weeks already in reality.

Good.

I really feel that the production should not be given to HAL alone. Get a private party too.

Means one line from HAL and other from private sector. For Dhruv, LCH, LUH and LCA.

To be fair, the ALH, LCH and LUH are all in-house products from HAL and are major success stories that are the result of their own R&D efforts. The ALH is now being churned out at a healthy rate (25-30+/year) and it has been continuously refined over the years (Mk.1/2/3/Rudra) and any issues gradually rectified. HAL don't deserve to have this portfolio torn out of their hands unless they are themselves looking to outsource their helo division to the private sector.

The LCA is another matter of course.

Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.

Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???

Great!

5 choppers per year!! hahaha

I don't know what the reporter is smoking but the installed capacity of HAL's new Tumakuru plant is 60 LUH/year.

What's interesting is that the plant is also being lined up for the IMRH's production in the future if you believe what is written here (10 ton class helo).

MP should totally scrap long delayed 197 LUH acquisition just like MRCA.

That's a bone given to the Russians but neither side seems to be pushing too hard. Now the LUH is on track I see little reason to keep the Russians hanging on, HAL clearly isn't interested in producing the Ka-226.

Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :

" the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), 440 of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade. "

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.

So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?

Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer

The IN has no plans to induct the HAL LUH and it is the IA and IAF who are working with HAL for the LUH, the IN is looking for a foreign product to meet their needs, the 56 twin engined NLUHs has NOT been junked. In fact, the NLUH is progressing with private players (TATA for the Bell 429 and Mahindra for the Panther) tying up with foreign OEMs to make bids to the IN soon.

In fact, the IA and IAF's combined LUH requirement is around 600 units. I have always said there was game played by the MoD to keep all sides happy (armed forces and HAL)- the total LUH requirement was split 200 (aprx), 200 (aprx), 200 (aprx) with the first third (197) going to a foreign RSH that could be inducted swiftly to cover the IA/IAF immediate needs(that was the plan anyway), 187 to HAL for their LUH and then a decsion would be made between these two which product would be ordered for the outstanding 200 or so depending on their performance in service. Of course Anthony's MoD truly screwed up these plans (twice cancelling the RSH procurement and stalling it until 2014) and Parrikar put the final nail in the coffin by cancelling the RSH procurement and entering into a G-G deal with the L2 bidder (Kamov).

It is more than possible that HAL gets a lion's share of the 600 requirement now (if not all of it) as they have now flight tested their product before the foreign RSH has even been ordered and are constructing their own production line before land for such a plant has even been scouted for in India. If the Ka-226 is still ordered it will 100% be a poltical decsion at this point. Certainly, HAL is well placed to make good on the armed forces' requirements by ensuring their new helo plant will have an installed capacity to churn out 60 LUH/year.

 

[proud_indian]

But, as expected, none of those targetted milestones were met. The LUH’s design was frozen in only 2013 and its sole full-scale mock-up for evaluation and assessment was ready only by February 2015. Only after that did work begin on building a ground test vehicle (GTV) for design validation and testing of all dynamic systems, and the three projected flying prototypes for flight-tests and airworthiness certification. As of now, the revised milestones call for the flight-tests and airworthiness certification processes to be completed by 2019 at best, with IOC being targetted for 2021. All-in-all, therefore, a delay of six (06) years.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

@Abingdonboy

Do you think we can wait for this long?

 

[mkb95]

I don't know what the reporter is smoking but the installed capacity of HAL's new Tumakuru plant is 60 LUH/year.

12*5=60
so basically it was 5 per month got misprinted as 5 per year.
edit-why is this thread is merged with lch thread when there is a separate thread for luh?

 

[Perpendicular]

 

[GuardianRED]

Thanks. Looks great - but that is a weird flight plan? TESTing?

 

[wiseone2]

Arjun failed.
LCA is going to be declared as a failure in months.
LCH? that will just be another failure.

Why are they failures ??

Yes, my Indian genius, what makes you think the Z-10 does not have good avionics? And I already repeated many times, nobody knows the weight of the Z-10, but it was created to counter the Apache. So it was meant to be in the same class as Apache.

Yet by your logic this 'thin' LCH can complement so much avionics, so light and with such a powerful engine that even the Apache cannot match it. Funny that you are buying Apache. The same logics in LCA.

The L in LCH stands for light. Apache is heavy attack helicopter. The IAF is buying Apaches because they cannot make engines for heavy helicopters among other things.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Beautiful.

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Armani @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002

I think the LUH has the potential to change the face of India's (rotary wing) aviation sector. Leaving aside the military applications (taking that as read), a single engined low cost local LUH can have a transformational effect for applications such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India), police duties, supporting civil projects, transporting executives etc etc.

Until now the ALH being a twin engined (light) medium class helo has been out of reach for most of ease roles as it is simply overkill and thusly expensive for most civilian mainland operations stated above. In most developed nations it is the single engined LUH that is most prolific and finally India has its own solution.

The HAL LUH can be to India what the Bell 407 was to the US.

Thanks. Looks great - but that is a weird flight plan? TESTing?

For demonstration purposes (on the occasion of the first flight). A hover like this is actually rather taxing as compared to a standard flight profile. It shows how confident HAL's test team are in the bird.

@Dandpatta
LUH seem to be a leaner version of Dhruv
See the position of Vertical/Horizontal Stabilizers.
LUH (Side)

Dhruv

Front
Dhruv

Indeed, the LUH is based on the ALH (as is the LCH) but crucially is single engined and significantly lighter (3 tons vs 5.5).

The ALH's success truly has been fully exploited by HAL and leveraged for other projects. Truly hats off to them.


Next they will build on this success for the 10 ton IMRH.

Tender is junked for the 56 ones.. it was the one in which Agusta and Eurocopter responded..

That has been now changed. See here is the original which has been modified now

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/page-6#post-8659781

187+197+56 = 440

here its marked as 50 - naval twin engine helicopter..and respondents were Eurocopter and Agusta.

Besides the forces the private sector requirement for LUH stands easily at another 300+ so all in all it will touch superb numbers once HAL can get it produced properly and maintain descent production rate from its plant

Bro, the IN is still proceeding with their 56 twin engined NLUH, the HAL LUH has no baring on this.

Airbus and Bell are vying it out for the NLUH.

 

[Aero]

such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India),

For HEMS, i think if it is budget friendly & economical to operate it will be boon to medicals services as due to our traffic conditions many times Ambulances get stuck in traffic so an Air Ambulance will be very good.

 

[Abingdonboy]

But, as expected, none of those targetted milestones were met. The LUH’s design was frozen in only 2013 and its sole full-scale mock-up for evaluation and assessment was ready only by February 2015. Only after that did work begin on building a ground test vehicle (GTV) for design validation and testing of all dynamic systems, and the three projected flying prototypes for flight-tests and airworthiness certification. As of now, the revised milestones call for the flight-tests and airworthiness certification processes to be completed by 2019 at best, with IOC being targetted for 2021. All-in-all, therefore, a delay of six (06) years.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

@Abingdonboy

Do you think we can wait for this long?

Production will begin in 2020.


Can India wait 4 years? It will have to but the upgraded/re-engined Cheetal and Cheetan will take some of the pressure off. The wait will be worth it though.

For HEMS, i think if it is budget friendly & economical to operate it will be boon to medicals services as due to our traffic conditions many times Ambulances get stuck in traffic so an Air Ambulance will be very good.

Exactly right. The civilian sector (much more than the military field) are extremely cost sensitive so the LUH that will be mass produced in India with full Through life support IN INDIA will offer far more attractive life cycle costs for all operators than any foreign OEM could possibly offer today.

Right now HEMS in India are making use of imported Airbus helos, no doubt the LUH will be able to significantly undercut them.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Beautiful.

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Armani @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002

I think the LUH has the potential to change the face of India's (rotary wing) aviation sector. Leaving aside the military applications (taking that as read), a single engined low cost local LUH can have a transformational effect for applications such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India), police duties, supporting civil projects, transporting executives etc etc.

Until now the ALH being a twin engined (light) medium class helo has been out of reach for most of ease roles as it is simply overkill and thusly expensive for most civilian mainland operations stated above. In most developed nations it is the single engined LUH that is most prolific and finally India has its own solution.

The HAL LUH can be to India what the Bell 407 was to the US.


For demonstration purposes (on the occasion of the first flight). A hover like this is actually rather taxing as compared to a standard flight profile. It shows how confident HAL's test team are in the bird.


Indeed, the LUH is based on the ALH (as is the LCH) but crucially is single engined and significantly lighter (3 tons vs 5.5).

The ALH's success truly has been fully exploited by HAL and leveraged for other projects. Truly hats off to them.


Next they will build on this success for the 10 ton IMRH.


Bro, the IN is still proceeding with their 56 twin engined NLUH, the HAL LUH has no baring on this.

Airbus and Bell are vying it out for the NLUH.

Regarding Naval Light Utility Helicopter , the number is projected to be 120 in an expected new RFI( Tender for 56 were cancelled and a RFI for " 100 Plus NLUH" was issued for which an RFP was supposed to be issued, but it seems a fresh RFI will be issued , as when Modi visited France , the meeting between business CEOs and Modi had except Rafales , mention about 123 Naval Multirole Helicopters and 120 NLUH ). Panther and Bell offering are front runners. Sadly we won't see Wildcat running for this ....