HAL HJT-36 Sitara Project on Notice

[anant_s]

According to the information provided in Aero India 2013 , HJT-36 Sitara Project is on Notice , and is just one accident away from been scrapped . Indian air force has openly expressed its displeasure on Slow progress of the project for last few years , unreliable NPO Saturn AL-55I engine along with spate of accident in past has pushed the Project on brink of been scrapped .

HAL official from Aero India 2013 have informed that Flight testing of HJT-36 Sitara has re-commenced . PT-2 along with LSP-1/2/3 are carrying on the flight testing , HAL along with Russians have fixed Problems with NPO Saturn AL-55I engine , loss of PT-1 aircraft has been attributed to failure of the NPO Saturn AL-55I engine which stalled mid air leading to crash of the aircraft .

Next few months are crucial for HJT-36 Sitara Project and HAL is working extra hard to achieve IOC for the aircraft in next few months , HJT-36 Sitara has completed 600 Test Flights , Design changes in the aircraft have been made to clear spin drive test and also fixes have been made to the engine .

Indian air force is considering using same PC-7 basic propeller trainers for Stage II training also , since HJT-16 Kiran intermediate trainers will start retiring from end of 2013 and IAF cannot keep them in service due to advance age of the air frames which have crossed their service life already ,further use of HJT-16 Kiran will be risky for student pilots .

On other hand IAF is also in no mood of Buying intermediate trainers from other countries and has given HAL two years time to fix and certify and put HJT-36 Sitara in production . Problems with HJT-36 Sitara Project is keeping Pilatus and Bae in hope of getting more orders for their aircrafts which currently cover Stage -I and Stage-II training program for Indian force . Irkut has also been advertising YAK-130 Combat Jet Trainer Jet in Indian Defence Magazines lately sensing opportunity .

HAL HJT-36 Sitara Project on Notice | idrw.org

Safe to Say (HJT 36) SITARA GARDISH MAIN HAIN

 

[Abingdonboy]

According to the information provided in Aero India 2013 , HJT-36 Sitara Project is on Notice , and is just one accident away from been scrapped . Indian air force has openly expressed its displeasure on Slow progress of the project for last few years , unreliable NPO Saturn AL-55I engine along with spate of accident in past has pushed the Project on brink of been scrapped .

HAL official from Aero India 2013 have informed that Flight testing of HJT-36 Sitara has re-commenced . PT-2 along with LSP-1/2/3 are carrying on the flight testing , HAL along with Russians have fixed Problems with NPO Saturn AL-55I engine , loss of PT-1 aircraft has been attributed to failure of the NPO Saturn AL-55I engine which stalled mid air leading to crash of the aircraft .

Next few months are crucial for HJT-36 Sitara Project and HAL is working extra hard to achieve IOC for the aircraft in next few months , HJT-36 Sitara has completed 600 Test Flights , Design changes in the aircraft have been made to clear spin drive test and also fixes have been made to the engine .

Indian air force is considering using same PC-7 basic propeller trainers for Stage II training also , since HJT-16 Kiran intermediate trainers will start retiring from end of 2013 and IAF cannot keep them in service due to advance age of the air frames which have crossed their service life already ,further use of HJT-16 Kiran will be risky for student pilots .

On other hand IAF is also in no mood of Buying intermediate trainers from other countries and has given HAL two years time to fix and certify and put HJT-36 Sitara in production . Problems with HJT-36 Sitara Project is keeping Pilatus and Bae in hope of getting more orders for their aircrafts which currently cover Stage -I and Stage-II training program for Indian force . Irkut has also been advertising YAK-130 Combat Jet Trainer Jet in Indian Defence Magazines lately sensing opportunity .

HAL HJT-36 Sitara Project on Notice | idrw.org

Safe to Say (HJT 36) SITARA GARDISH MAIN HAIN

This is the perfect opportunity for the IAF to kill the project completely. The actual value of the IJT in the IAF's training curriculum is almost none IMHO.It seems to me the IJT was born out of requirements of old ie the idea the IAF was to operate a VERY basic BTT and a VERY advanced BAE HAWK AJT (MK.132). It was felt there was a need for a platform to bridge the gap between the BTT and AJT. However now the IAF has called an end to the possibility of the HTT-40 in IAF service and has bought the advanced BTT PC-7 MK.II which can facilitate mission simulations and is actually pretty close to the AJT's mission systems- what is the point in the IJT?


If the IAF is saying this:

Indian air force is considering using same PC-7 basic propeller trainers for Stage II training also

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...t-36-sitara-project-notice.html#ixzz2KhFY7yV6

It seem they agree.


Put together all the IAF has been saying and doing of late on the trainer front it very much seems like the door is closed on the IJT in all but name.



What the IAF really needs is a supersonic LIFT (Lead-in Fighter trainer) to train pilots post Hawk flying as the Hawk AJT is subsonic.


For an IAF fighter pilot this is the ideal training program IMHO:

BTT--->HAWK AJT--->supersonic LIFT---> OCU.

All supplemented by extensive ground-based full mission simulators.


I'm willing to place a bet today (in fact once I had heard the PC-7 MK.II had been ordered I suspected as much) the IJT will never see Indian service.

 

[anant_s]

This is the perfect opportunity for the IAF to kill the project completely. The actual value of the IJT in the IAF's training curriculum is almost none IMHO.It seems to me the IJT was born out of requirements of old ie the idea the IAF was to operate a VERY basic BTT and a VERY advanced BAE HAWK AJT (MK.132). It was felt there was a need for a platform to bridge the gap between the BTT and AJT. However now the IAF has called an end to the possibility of the HTT-40 in IAF service and has bought the advanced BTT PC-7 MK.II which can facilitate mission simulations and is actually pretty close to the AJT's mission systems- what is the point in the IJT?


If the IAF is saying this:



It seem they agree.


Put together all the IAF has been saying and doing of late on the trainer front it very much seems like the door is closed on the IJT in all but name.



What the IAF really needs is a supersonic LIFT (Lead-in Fighter trainer) to train pilots post Hawk flying as the Hawk AJT is subsonic.


For an IAF fighter pilot this is the ideal training program IMHO:

BTT--->HAWK AJT--->supersonic LIFT---> OCU.

All supplemented by extensive ground-based full mission simulators.


I'm willing to place a bet today (in fact once I had heard the PC-7 MK.II had been ordered I suspected as much) the IJT will never see Indian service.

Yes this could be a double whammy for HAL now that IAF has already shot down HTT40 and HJT36 not going anywhere. But yes by having only two aircrafts for training, IAF would save a lot of resources on maintenance and spares. So not a bad idea if they can tweak their training course. Infact could be a real smart move!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yes this could be a double whammy for HAL now that IAF has already shot down HTT40 and HJT36 not going anywhere. But yes by having only two aircrafts for training, IAF would save a lot of resources on maintenance and spares. So not a bad idea if they can tweak their training course. Infact could be a real smart move!

Well sir, I am still advoacting 3 training a/c- BTT,AJT and the a new induction that should be made a supersonic LIFT. Having said that BAE markets the AJT as a LIFT and the only thing the Hawk is missing is the ability to go supersonic. So a LIFT is not essential it would just be good to have in a perfect world for the IAF/IN. As right now a trainee pilot will go from a subsonic AJT to a supersonic fighter. Granted that the trainee pilot's first experience of supersonic flight will be in an OCU in a twin seater with an instructor on board but like I said in an ideal world a LIFT would be a great addtion to the IAF and would make the IAF/IN training regime fool-proof IMHO.

 

[anant_s]

Well sir, I am still advoacting 3 training a/c- BTT,AJT and the a new induction that should be made a supersonic LIFT. Having said that BAE markets the AJT as a LIFT and the only thing the Hawk is missing is the ability to go supersonic. So a LIFT is not essential it would just be good to have in a perfect world for the IAF/IN. As right now a trainee pilot will go from a subsonic AJT to a supersonic fighter. Granted that the trainee pilot's first experience of supersonic flight will be in an OCU in a twin seater with an instructor on board but like I said in an ideal world a LIFT would be a great addtion to the IAF and would make the IAF/IN training regime fool-proof IMHO.

Very true sir, between AJT and Operational Conversion Unit, there should be additional level considering that there aren't many OCUs per squadron. I would really love to hear from you on options that IAF may look into for LIFT

 

[Abingdonboy]

Very true sir, between AJT and Operational Conversion Unit, there should be additional level considering that there aren't many OCUs per squadron. I would really love to hear from you on options that IAF may look into for LIFT

Yep! Well as far as I can see the only candidate really is the KAI T-50:

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The YAK-130 the Russians are inexplicably trying to flog to India is sub-sonic and the IAF's AJTs are as capable, if not more so, than the -130.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing the LCA trainer varient become the standard LIFT for the IAF although I don't know how practical this would be.


+ please, less of the "Sir"- I'm only 19 for God's sake mate! lol!

 

[anant_s]

encyclopedia[/url]
+ please, less of the "Sir"- I'm only 19 for God's sake mate! lol!

Well i'm 33, but i hope you would believe age is just a number. I do however respect the knowledge you and many other member have on matters that excite us and we come to PDFseeking for.
Well what can i say, God Bless You brother!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well i'm 33, but i hope you would believe age is just a number. I do however respect the knowledge you and many other member have on matters that excite us.
Well what can i say, God Bless You brother!

I agree mate!

Thanks brother.

 

[arp2041]

@Abingdonboy, though inducting another type of ac for training looks good on surface but in reality you know that it will become a logistical nightmare, Basic trainers as well as AJTs were the necessity but as you are suggesting LIFT ac will be a luxury that IAF can't afford. IAF should try to keep it's training programme as simple as possible with PC-7s for STAGE 1 & 2, AJT for STAGE-3 & twin seaters & simulators for next stages.

IAF is inducting too much of different platforms of late such as C-17, C-130J, Apache, etc. from USA, mirage-2000s, Rafale from France, sukhois, migs IL-76/78 from Russia & so on......So inducting more & more different types of platforms will only result in spending more on infrastructure & logistics & less on procurement of necessary ac itself.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy, though inducting another type of ac for training looks good on surface but in reality you know that it will become a logistical nightmare, Basic trainers as well as AJTs were the necessity but as you are suggesting LIFT ac will be a luxury that IAF can't afford. IAF should try to keep it's training programme as simple as possible with PC-7s for STAGE 1 & 2, AJT for STAGE-3 & twin seaters & simulators for next stages.

IAF is inducting too much of different platforms of late such as C-17, C-130J, Apache, etc. from USA, mirage-2000s, Rafale from France, sukhois, migs IL-76/78 from Russia & so on......So inducting more & more different types of platforms will only result in spending more on infrastructure & logistics & less on procurement of necessary ac itself.

I agree that a supersonic LIFT is a lixery the IAF can do without. Having said that such a a/c in IAF service would make the IAF's training program watertight. It is not to say the IAF's training program would be poorer without a supersonic LIFT it would just, naturally, be better off it it was in service.

I guess it all depends on what the IAF deems appropriate and whatever conclusions the IAF comes to. I wouldn't expect any news on a supersonic LIFT until after the IAF has offically called an end to the HJT-36 program.


+ @sancho what are your thoughts on this sir?

 

[sancho]

What the IAF really needs is a supersonic LIFT (Lead-in Fighter trainer) to train pilots post Hawk flying as the Hawk AJT is subsonic.


For an IAF fighter pilot this is the ideal training program IMHO:

BTT--->HAWK AJT--->supersonic LIFT---> OCU.

All supplemented by extensive ground-based full mission simulators.


I'm willing to place a bet today (in fact once I had heard the PC-7 MK.II had been ordered I suspected as much) the IJT will never see Indian service.

You would loose, since the PC-7 has nothing to do with the IJT and can't replace it. The PC-7 will make IAF cadets to learn to fly, not any specific fighter or aircraft, but how to fly in general. The IJT on the other side will train them later purposly for jet fighters, with the Hawks being the next step in their training, but not the last either. Any fighter pilot will later be trained on twin seaters of the dedicated fighter type (prior to this, simulators of course), which means they will learn to fly supersonic fighters in dedicated fighter types and don't need another trainer in between of HAWKs and the fighters itself.
Other countries might have other mixes according to their training policies, but a 4 type of trainer in IAF is definitely too much.

 

[Abingdonboy]

You would loose, since the PC-7 has nothing to do with the IJT and can't replace it. The PC-7 will make IAF cadets to learn to fly, not any specific fighter or aircraft, but how to fly in general. The IJT on the other side will train them later purposly for jet fighters, with the Hawks being the next step in their training, but not the last either. Any fighter pilot will later be trained on twin seaters of the dedicated fighter type (prior to this, simulators of course), which means they will learn to fly supersonic fighters in dedicated fighter types and don't need another trainer in between of HAWKs and the fighters itself.
Other countries might have other mixes according to their training policies, but a 4 type of trainer in IAF is definitely too much.

But the IJT's utility is limited now in the IAF surely? There is a negligible jump between the BTT to the AJT and the gap is bridged by intensive ground-based simulators that the IAF is investing heavily in. I can't think of a single other modern AF with a IJT or a training process that has a step between BTT and AJT.

Most nations operating HAWK AJTs have trainee pilots coming straight out of a propeller driven BTT (like the PC-7) why should the IAF be any different?


The IJT is not relevant today.

 

[sancho]

I can't think of a single other modern AF with a IJT or a training process that has a step between BTT and AJT.

That's a different issue, some countries use 2 prop trainer aircrafts instead, but that still doesn't mean the PC-7 and the IJT would do the same training, so both are definitely needed.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That's a different issue, some countries use 2 prop trainer aircrafts instead, but that still doesn't mean the PC-7 and the IJT would do the same training, so both are definitely needed.

Sir if we look at the other AFs operating the BAE Hawk, their training regime looks like this:

Cadian AF:

Beechcraft T-6 Texan II (BTT)--->BAE Hawk --->OCU


Finnish AF:

Valmet L-70 Vinka (BTT)---BAE Hawk--->OCU


RAF:

Short Tucano (BTT)--->BAE Hawk--->OCU


RMAF:

PC-7--->BAE Hawk--->OCU


It can easily be argued that through a few more hours on the PC-7 and AJT alongside proper ground-based simulator training the need for the IJT evaporates.


The old logic of "we can't compare the IAF to Western/Modern AFs" simply doesn't hold water anymore. The IAF aspires to be one of the mose advanced AFs on earth and it is getting the very latest tech if it works for others/the West why can't it work for the IAF?

 

[sancho]

Come on man, since when did you started the sir stuff?

It can easily be argued that through a few more hours on the PC-7 and AJT alongside proper ground-based simulator training the need for the IJT evaporates.

No, because as I said, the prob trainer don't replace training on a jet trainer. If at all you must say that we don't need IJT because of the Hawks, but not because of the PC7.

The old logic of "we can't compare the IAF to Western/Modern AFs" simply doesn't hold water anymore. The IAF aspires to be one of the mose advanced AFs on earth and it is getting the very latest tech if it works for others/the West why can't it work for the IAF?

Not really, any force has it's own policies, tactics and way to approach things, some might be similar, some are not (see helicopter wing discussions).