HAL, BAE study JV to make Hawk jets

[Contrarian]

HAL, BAE study JV to make Hawk jets


India’s state-run aircraft maker, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), and BAE Systems Plc., UK’s largest defence company, are in talks to set up a joint venture (JV) to manufacture the Hawk advanced jet trainers in India for the global market.

HAL already manufactures Hawk under licence from BAE for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Both firms are doing a feasibility study for the joint venture, which would also focus on doing repair and overhaul of the Hawk aircraft, sold by BAE Systems worldwide, wrote Ashok K. Baweja, chairman of HAL, in an email to Mint.

More than 900 Hawk aircraft are in use among various air forces to train pilots in the advanced fast jet (AFJ) phase of conversion or before they begin to fly supersonic fighters such as the MiG-21 and Mirage 2000.

A BAE Systems Hawk jet fighter trainer. BAE and HAL are doing a feasibility study for a joint venture, which would also focus on doing repair and overhaul of the Hawk aircraft.

A BAE Systems Hawk jet fighter trainer. BAE and HAL are doing a feasibility study for a joint venture, which would also focus on doing repair and overhaul of the Hawk aircraft.

Baweja did not elaborate, and a spokesperson for BAE in the UK couldn’t be reached for comment. A HAL spokesman said the JV proposal was in an initial stage and further details would emerge only after a feasibility study is completed. He declined to set a timetable.


If the venture takes off, it will give “access to global technology and (provide a) higher level of expertise for HAL,” said N.S. Sisodia, director at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, a strategy and security studies think tank based in New Delhi.

While HAL has rights for repair and overhaul of the Hawk aircraft, following a contract with BAE signed in 2004 for 66 advanced jet trainers to train IAF pilots, it hasn’t done so.

Under that deal, worth nearly Rs8,000 crore at that time, BAE would supply 24 Hawks in flyaway conditions, with the remaining 42 aircraft to be made under a technology transfer licence at the Bangalore factory of HAL.

In November, the first two British-built Hawk arrived in India. These trainers will be used for stage-III training for newly commissioned fighter pilots of the IAF at Bidar in Karnataka from June.

“The Hawk aircraft manufacturing activities have already commenced and the first aircraft would be delivered to the IAF by March 2008,”said Baweja.
The remaining aircraft are scheduled to be delivered by May 2010.

“We learnt from the Jaguar experience and inserted a clause for global rights (for Hawk),” said a retired HAL official who was involved in negotiations with BAE but did not want to be named.

In the 1990s, BAE refused permission for HAL, which also produces the Jaguar planes under licence, to sell them to Bahrain as it didn’t have the right to do so, the former official added.

In 2004, HAL completed designs for a homegrown combat attack trainer, or advanced jet trainer that doubles as a fighter, but scrapped the project after the IAF did not approve it.

The public sector defence aircraft company has a homegrown Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), used for stage-II training of pilots, that is behind schedule by two years because of delay in procuring a suitable Russian engine.

“The initial operation clearance of IJT is now planned by end-2008,” said Baweja.

Two prototypes of the IJT, powered by a French engine from Snecma, have completed 371 test flights.

HAL had revenue of Rs7,505 crore as of March, while BAE had revenue of £13.76 billion, or Rs1.08 trillion, for the year ended December 2006.

HAL, BAE study JV to make Hawk jets - livemint

 

[Contrarian]

Now, this is good news!

It means that IAF is going to standardize the Hawk for its AJT needs ie stage 3 training, and soon enough the IJT's will be used for stage 2 training.

The IAF will fiinally start replacing the old Kiran trainers and those piston fired planes for training
This is very very important news to those uninitiated, the training of the pilots is even more important than getting newer jets!
And IAF used bloody old planes for training purposes, due to which inevitably, the pilots did not get sufficient training.

 

[KENT]

Now, this is good news!

It means that IAF is going to standardize the Hawk for its AJT needs ie stage 3 training, and soon enough the IJT's will be used for stage 2 training.

The IAF will fiinally start replacing the old Kiran trainers and those piston fired planes for training
This is very very important news to those uninitiated, the training of the pilots is even more important than getting newer jets!
And IAF used bloody old planes for training purposes, due to which inevitably, the pilots did not get sufficient training.

If it is possible for you, could you provide some information about Stages i.e. stage II & III?

 

[Contrarian]

Training is done in 3 phases. Each phase has a trainer plane and simulatiors, that is progressively advanced, and thus when the time comes for the pilot to join IAF and start flying his jets, he is well prepared.

Right now, India uses Kiran trainers, that are as old as things go in India. It is not fit for providing training now, as Kiran is subsonic, and after Kiran, the pilots go straight to the MiG 21 which is a supersonic plane, the gap is a huge one and is not right. The training imparted is also of a lower grade because of such deficiencies(equipment).

To give you some idea of magnitude of the problem, IAF had demanded a new AJT from the govt since the 1980's!! Since that time an AJT has been lacking! The govt started negotiations with the BAe for Hawks at in the 80's and they never stopped discussing! Its now when there was a severe problem that the deal was struck in 2000's and finally the AJT's have started to come(the latest version ofcourse).

The Hawk is considered THE best trainer plane around and is in use in many many airforces for the purpose. Hawk also has light ground attack ability.
The Indian pilots were undergoing training on the Hawk planes with RAF in England, till the time the planes came to India after the deal was signed. The pilots became very very competent after their training with the RAF and directly progressed to fly the Su-30 in IAF. Such was the difference b/w the IAF training program and the RAF training program, as the pilots who fly the Su-30 are usually very competent and among the best.

As you can see, there was a lot to be desired from our pilot training. Now with the induction of Hawk(Advanced Jet Trainer), this is set to change. This will be for phase 3 training, or the final level of training which is most important. One step below that is the Phase 2, and HAL is designing the Intermediate Jet Trainer or IJT which will be the plane used in Phase 2.

IAF is streamlining its training program, which is excellent.

Taken from IAF website.

"Training is divided into Stage I, II and III. Each stage gradually takes you from fundamental to more complex levels of aviation. It is during Stage III that pilots are sent for specialisation on Fighter, Helicopter or Transport aircraft.

Before the commencement of Flying Training, you will first be provided technical training on the Kiran Mk-1 or the HPT-32. This involves imparting theoretical understanding and then a practical demonstration on all systems of the aircraft. You will also be required to undertake a program in aviation medicine. Apart from a complete medical examination, you undergo a de-sensitisation program to prevent / overcome airsickness with the help of Yoga.Image The program also includes practical demonstrations in a high altitude simulator. After completing Stage III of specialisation, you begin operational flying at the squadron / units assigned to you. "

 

[hoodhood1]

I am told that HAL will be assembling Hawks, like they have done in the past with other a/c's, as India does not manufacture jet engines, Avonics, Landing Gears, Ejection seats, etc,etc.

 

[KENT]

I am told that HAL will be assembling Hawks, like they have done in the past with other a/c's, as India does not manufacture jet engines, Avonics, Landing Gears, Ejection seats, etc,etc.

This post speaks volume about you. Oh Did you forget to add Bullock Cart in your reasoning? Get it done immediatley

 

[Contrarian]

IAF to get 40 more Hawk AJTs

BANGALORE: The Air Force, which is acquiring 66 Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs) designed and developed by BAE Systems, has prevailed upon the government to allow it to procure another 40 out of the 57 additional Hawks that are to be bought. The Navy will get 17.

Under a contract worth around $1.75 billion signed in March 2004, India is already buying 66 Hawk AJTs, with 24 of these aircraft being built in the United Kingdom by BAE Systems, and the remaining 42 manufactured under ‘licence build’ in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

While HAL is hoping to complete manufacturing the initial batch of 42 Hawks in 36 months — with the first aircraft scheduled to roll out in March — official sources told The Hindu that work on the other 57 could start in 2011-12.

But officials at HAL also admit that to manufacture 42 Hawks between 2008 and 2010-11 is an extremely challenging task. Under the schedule, the Hawk production, which has been divided into three phases, will peak during the second phase (starting 2009-end) with HAL hoping to turn out one aircraft every month during this phase. This phase will undoubtedly be the most technically challenging since HAL will have to indigenise a number of components and systems during it.

The first two Hawks manufactured for the Air Force flew into India from the BAE Systems facilities in Brough, East Yorkshire, and made their maiden landing in India at Air Force Station, Jamnagar (Gujarat), in mid November, before flying to their designated base at Air Force Station Bidar (Karnataka).

Ten more British built (direct supply) Hawks are scheduled to be inducted into the Air Force by mid February. Training of Hawk air crew has already begun in England and Wales.

While HAL will benefit from the additional order, it is also an indication that the Air Force is apprehensive over the long delay in the delivery of the HAL designed and developed intermediate jet trainer (IJT), the Hindustan Jet Trainer (HJT) -36. The HJT-36 which is expected to become the backbone of the Air Force’s pilot training programme will replace the aging workhorse, the Kiran HJT-16. But HAL, which received an order for 12 aircraft, has been unable to meet even revised delivery schedules.

The Hindu : Front Page : IAF to get 40 more Hawk AJTs

 

[Contrarian]

Tada!

See, good news all around in the Indian Defence context! 66 Hawks were WAYY to insufficient for an Airforce as big as the IAF. It meant that the pilots would get little time on the Hawks and the planes would be used exhaustively thus reducing their life.

Now 40 more hawks,
that makes an overall 106 Hawk Trainers. Verry satisfactory! Like i said, IAF is FINALLY realizing/making sure that pilot training is the single biggest factor/asset in any airforce.

Secondly, notice the italicized part. This is a CLEAR example of pure stupidity. The writer does not even know the difference between the AJT and the IJT. He thinks that getting more AJT means the IAF is not satisfied with the IJT. IJT is for intermediate training, thus the name(Intermediate Jet trainer)! IAF never did this before, have proper three phases with Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Jet trainers. The pilots graduated from the vintage Kiran's to MiG 21's! And obviously, pilots were not half as prepared as they should be nor well trained enough.

GoI is finally releasing funds, making sure that IAF will soon have a world class training program. The first stage with HJT, the second stage with IJT and the third stage with AJT's.

I am sceptical about the Navy's part though. Will the Navy get Hawks or the BAe Hawk based T-45 Goshawks(made for USN, especially for carrier training) on which the IN pilots have been training in the US for some time while the Vikramaditya comes.

 

[KENT]

In my opinion, additional Hawks as per mentioned in other article, 17 of which will be earmarked for Navy. This means that as IN is shortly about to receive delivery of Mig-29k and hence in a rush additional Hawks have been ordered.

About HJT-36, there is no point of blaming HAL for its late delivery, since testing of HJT-36 is already ahead of schedule and on top of that HAL is already overbooked with Su-30mki,Jaguars,LCA,Naval LCA,MCA,PAK-FA,Dhurv,MTA,LCH as well as host of all other upgrades of Mig-21, Mig-27,Mirage,Mig-21,Shars and avionics and Engines.

 

[doobie87]

havent been here (this forum) too long, and i have nothing really to contribute to this particular discussion, but what i have noticed is that no **** responds to any discussion that is even slightly pro-indian with no way to logically counter or deny any claims that might have been stated.
mullah central indeed.
a nickel for every time webmaster deletes my posts anyone?

 

[doobie87]

whats wrong with saying P.A.K.I??

 

[never]

i cant understand why india cannot induct its own ijt, is that just a tech demo. the k8 jv seems successful and competes with the hawk, may be india should assemble these as eygpt does, honestly.

 

[KENT]

i cant understand why india cannot induct its own ijt , is that just a tech demo.

Inability of yours to understand can be attributed to your lack of knowledge about IJT. IJT is already running ahead of shedule and nearly more 300 flying test flights has believed to have done so far. IJT would likely to get inducted in IAF by the next year

the k8 jv seems successful and competes with the hawk, may be india should assemble these as eygpt does, honestly.

Hawks are way in all differnt league as compared to K8, Hawks are way advanced then K8. K8's cheap price can only outperform HAWKs.

Total orders of 106 Hawks is placed by India, out of which 24 would be received in readymade condition, whereas rest of them will licence produced by HAL.

 

[Titanium]

Aftter selling the 80 AJT, Bae embarked on new AJT.

BAE Systems assembling next generation Hawk jet trainer

Britain’s BAE Systems has begun final assembly of the next generation Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), 28 of which will be built for the Royal Air Force (RAF) and the Royal Navy (RN).

The new aircraft builds on the Hawk Mk-132, of which the Indian Air Force (IAF) has purchased 66.

The first of the new aircraft has been designated RT003 and is being manufactured by the BAE Systems facility at Brough, a company release Monday said.

Two new generation Hawk AJTs already produced by BAE Systems under the design and development contract signed with the British defence ministry in 2004 are now in the final phase of their flight development programme at BAE Systems Warton.

The new Hawk AJT is equipped with some of the latest avionic systems ensuring that the aircraft is the ideal platform for training the next generation of fast jet pilots, the release said.

What are the Hawk 132 for?? Training Russian 80's vintage aircraft???

 

[KENT]

Aftter selling the 80 AJT, Bae embarked on new AJT.

BAE Systems assembling next generation Hawk jet trainer

Britain’s BAE Systems has begun final assembly of the next generation Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), 28 of which will be built for the Royal Air Force (RAF) and the Royal Navy (RN).

The new aircraft builds on the Hawk Mk-132, of which the Indian Air Force (IAF) has purchased 66.

The first of the new aircraft has been designated RT003 and is being manufactured by the BAE Systems facility at Brough, a company release Monday said.

Two new generation Hawk AJTs already produced by BAE Systems under the design and development contract signed with the British defence ministry in 2004 are now in the final phase of their flight development programme at BAE Systems Warton.

The new Hawk AJT is equipped with some of the latest avionic systems ensuring that the aircraft is the ideal platform for training the next generation of fast jet pilots, the release said.

What are the Hawk 132 for?? Training Russian 80's vintage aircraft???

All the 80 vintage Migs have already been upgraded and even USAF flying 80 vintage aircraft and Hawk 132 for training of Indian Pilots to make them familarize with 4++ fighter planes