Govt turning Kashmir into separate state: BJP

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Kashmir was independent ????
than howcome India is occupting it ?

Could it not be the other way around?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Could it not be the other way around?

It very well could, hence the "disputed" status - and who better to decide who their "occupiers" and "subjugators" are than the Kashmiris themselves!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It very well could, hence the "disputed" status - and who better to decide who their "occupiers" and "subjugators" are than the Kashmiris themselves!

You are absolutely right.

If what you are stating is right, then there should be Bangladesh repeated in Kashmir! That has not happened in any of the attempts of Pakistan to foment it (separation or joining Pakistan), right from Op Gibraltar! Does prove that Kashmiri Independence propaganda is foreign inspired! Or are you suggesting that Kashmiris have no balls unlike the Bengalees?

Now if you say that is is because of the Indian Army that Kashmir is with India, then you are agreeing that the Indian Army is better than the Pakistani Army in pursuing its govt's directive unlike the Pakistani Armed Forces (to keep East Pakistan with Pakistan) and hence The Pakistani army is pretty useless.

Is that right?

 

[Awesome]

You are absolutely right.

If what you are stating is right, then there should be Bangladesh repeated in Kashmir! That has not happened in any of the attempts of Pakistan to foment it (separation or joining Pakistan), right from Op Gibraltar! Does prove that Kashmiri Independence propaganda is foreign inspired! Or are you suggesting that Kashmiris have no balls unlike the Bengalees?

Now if you say that is is because of the Indian Army that Kashmir is with India, then you are agreeing that the Indian Army is better than the Pakistani Army in pursuing its govt's directive unlike the Pakistani Armed Forces (to keep East Pakistan with Pakistan) and hence The Pakistani army is pretty useless.

Is that right?

7 lakhs (700,000) troops can tame most rebellions. But the Kashmiri response is hardly tamed, anyway - Hence the 7 million troops in the first place .

When in doubt, ask. Ask the Kashmiris, please.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Maybe Asim,

You cant even tame the NWFP with equal amount of troops! And you surrender to them with all your arms and ammunition! Haven't heard that yet with the Indiam Army! We rather die than surrender!

If wishes were horse, then beggars would ride!

When in doubt, ask the Talibans and the Pashtuns who don't recognise the Durand Line!

And don't go tangential. Answer the issue raised by AM and my reply.

To recap:

You are absolutely right.

If what you are stating is right, then there should be Bangladesh repeated in Kashmir! That has not happened in any of the attempts of Pakistan to foment it (separation or joining Pakistan), right from Op Gibraltar! Does prove that Kashmiri Independence propaganda is foreign inspired! Or are you suggesting that Kashmiris have no balls unlike the Bengalees?

Now if you say that is is because of the Indian Army that Kashmir is with India, then you are agreeing that the Indian Army is better than the Pakistani Army in pursuing its govt's directive unlike the Pakistani Armed Forces (to keep East Pakistan with Pakistan) and hence The Pakistani army is pretty useless.

Is that right?

 

[con]

7 million troops can tame most rebellions. But the Kashmiri response is hardly tamed, anyway - Hence the 7 million troops in the first place .

When in doubt, ask. Ask the Kashmiris, please.

7 million troops? Then Indian Army must be the largest standing army ever to walk on the planet isn't it?

Hitler used 4 million troops when he attacked Russia. A bunch of guerilla require more troops to handle?

 

[Awesome]

7 million troops? Then Indian Army must be the largest standing army ever to walk on the planet isn't it?

Hitler used 4 million troops when he attacked Russia. A bunch of guerilla require more troops to handle?

lol 7 lakhs I mean

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are absolutely right.

If what you are stating is right, then there should be Bangladesh repeated in Kashmir! That has not happened in any of the attempts of Pakistan to foment it (separation or joining Pakistan), right from Op Gibraltar! Does prove that Kashmiri Independence propaganda is foreign inspired! Or are you suggesting that Kashmiris have no balls unlike the Bengalees?

Now if you say that is is because of the Indian Army that Kashmir is with India, then you are agreeing that the Indian Army is better than the Pakistani Army in pursuing its govt's directive unlike the Pakistani Armed Forces (to keep East Pakistan with Pakistan) and hence The Pakistani army is pretty useless.

Is that right?

At least you recognize the morality behind the position of letting the Kashmiris choose. One man can never have the right to sign away, or sell, the future of millions - but ask a slave trader and you might get an answer in the affirmative.

Leading questions usually do not have a right or wrong answer.

Your comparisons are flawed, ignorant of the complexities and dynamics peculiar to each situation you mention.

A passage from David Humes rebuttal of the experiment of reasoning towards God's existence comes to mind:

"But observe, I entreat you, with what extreme caution all just reasoners proceed in the transferring of experiments to similar cases. Unless the cases be exactly similar, they repose no perfect confidence in applying their past observation to any particular phenomenon. Every alteration of circumstances occasions a doubt concerning the event; and it requires new experiments to prove certainly, that the new circumstances are of no moment or importance. A change in bulk, situation, arrangement, age, disposition of the air, or surrounding bodies; any of these particulars may be attended with the most unexpected consequences: and unless the objects be quite familiar to us, it is the highest temerity to expect with assurance, after any of these changes, an event similar to that which before fell under our observation."

My response is that the question you pose is a tangential one, unrelated to the issue I posed. The issue I raised is simple enough, and you acknowledge the morality of the position advocated, yet the "choice" of a peoples destiny, by them, remains denied them.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

At least you recognize the morality behind the position of letting the Kashmiris choose. One man can never have the right to sign away, or sell, the future of millions - but ask a slave trader and you might get an answer in the affirmative.

Leading questions usually do not have a right or wrong answer.

Your comparisons are flawed, ignorant of the complexities and dynamics peculiar to each situation you mention.

A passage from David Humes rebuttal of the experiment of reasoning towards God's existence comes to mind:

"But observe, I entreat you, with what extreme caution all just reasoners proceed in the transferring of experiments to similar cases. Unless the cases be exactly similar, they repose no perfect confidence in applying their past observation to any particular phenomenon. Every alteration of circumstances occasions a doubt concerning the event; and it requires new experiments to prove certainly, that the new circumstances are of no moment or importance. A change in bulk, situation, arrangement, age, disposition of the air, or surrounding bodies; any of these particulars may be attended with the most unexpected consequences: and unless the objects be quite familiar to us, it is the highest temerity to expect with assurance, after any of these changes, an event similar to that which before fell under our observation."

My response is that the question you pose is a tangential one, unrelated to the issue I posed. The issue I raised is simple enough, and you acknowledge the morality of the position advocated, yet the "choice" of a peoples destiny, by them, remains denied them.

That the Kashmiris want to leave the Indian Union is a moot point and it has been made larger than life by the foreign sponsored terrorists. The power of the gun always makes issues larger than life and imagination gripping. Take the Naxalites in India. They were there right from independence. They wanted a land of the workers and peasants. They were hardly known. But now that they are using modern weapons and are wantonly killing people, they have become a talking point and a matter of concern! They too are on the international radar.

I not only recognise the right of Kashmiris to select their destiny, but also that of all peoples, races, ethnicity in the world including those who are desperately seeking independence of their territories in Pakistan. However, if nations make and break at every turn of year or a decade, if you wish, then I am afraid the concept of a nation would become redundant. There are huge problems in Pakistan. Not only are some ethnic group rebelling, but also the common masses are against the govt. Does it mean that these ethnic people are that oppressed and the common man in the street rebelling against Musharaf so oppressed to the extent that their aspirations are not being met? Tell me, who in this world is happy with his lot? Are you? Any human being is charged with ambition and aspirations. Everyone wants things to go his way and should it not, it becomes a point of grouse. So, nothing is 100% perfect and no one is 100% happy.

Pakistan was created to rid Moslems of Hindu dominance. Therefore, having rid Hindu dominance, it should have been picture perfect. Is it? No. Why? Because, there is the indomitable desire of man to be supreme. Therefore, he hunts excuses to feet fat his ego. Thus, the picture perfect land that one had thought Pakistan would be, found new excuses - Sunni dominance over Shia, Punjabi dominance over others, Mohajirs vs the rest and so on. It is not a all Pakistan phenomenon. It afflicts the world. It afflicts India too!

What is all this power struggle going on in Pakistan for? Ego. To be supreme. Musharraf has done great wonders to Pakistan and yet BB, NS, Imran Khan, the fundamentalists are all there to bring him down. why? So that they can be supreme. What all this hullabaloo over Musharaf and his uniform about? To just humiliate him and feed fat the ego that they have humbled the all powerful military! Childish massaging of egos!


Therefore, we should read between the lines of all these problems that besot the nations of the world as is what is happening in India as also in Pakistan.

I asked you straight questions and one could have given straight answers.

My point still remains that if indeed the Kashnmiris want to secede from the Indian Union and there is an indigenous rebellion (as you and other suggests), then there should be a Bangladesh repeat.

It is not so and hence the so called rebellion is merely a figment of imagination catalysed by paid foreign agents and foreign sponsored terrorists, who by demonstrating actively and killing wantonly are appearing larger than life and are merely being projected as the popular sentiment by vested interests to serve their purpose.

Even the issue of the ummah being the bonding factor has been dispelled by Bangladesh splitting from Pakistan, inspite of Pakistan being explicitly created for Moslems of undivided India! Therefore, the argument that Kashmiris are Moslems and thus should be a part of Pakistan is not a truism.

I am of the opinion that 60 years have passed and yet we struggle to find our rightful places in the sun. Our peoples deserve better than what they are receiving. It is time to look beyond these historical logjams and embrace the beckoning future.

 

[salman nedian]

You are absolutely right.

If what you are stating is right, then there should be Bangladesh repeated in Kashmir! That has not happened in any of the attempts of Pakistan to foment it (separation or joining Pakistan), right from Op Gibraltar! Does prove that Kashmiri Independence propaganda is foreign inspired! Or are you suggesting that Kashmiris have no balls unlike the Bengalees?

Now if you say that is is because of the Indian Army that Kashmir is with India, then you are agreeing that the Indian Army is better than the Pakistani Army in pursuing its govt's directive unlike the Pakistani Armed Forces (to keep East Pakistan with Pakistan) and hence The Pakistani army is pretty useless.

Is that right?

Salim keep the fact in mind that East Pakistan was 1000 miles away from West Pakistan and was surrounded by India.

well if you want to see the usefulness of PA then in 1965 what we did to your army is enough evidence.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salim keep the fact in mind that East Pakistan was 1000 miles away from West Pakistan and was surrounded by India.

well if you want to see the usefulness of PA then in 1965 what we did to your army is enough evidence.

What difference does distance make if the country is one!

What's the big deal about being surrounded by India. It still is, that is if you think that Bay of Bengal is India. I don't think the Bay is India.

And what did you do in 1965. Please read the commentary of the Pakistani officer that I posted.

Or are you talking about Asal Uttar?

Why forget 1971?

Could we keep these issues out of the discussion since it is not a part of the thread? Why hijack the thread?

 

[salman nedian]

Kashmiri Mujahideens are already showing that how useful is Indian Army.Its matter of time mate.

If you want more evidence lets fight another war and remember dont scream and call USA when u r in trouble.

You people can only cowardly gain advantage of the misunderstandings b/w 2 brothers rather than fighting bravely thats what your history shows.

 

[salman nedian]

i am not hijacking the thread just answering your question.

we do remember 1971 and wait for the day when 2 parts of our country and Kashmir will form one country again and that will be the end of "Akhand Bharat" concept

 

[salman nedian]

In 1965 we captured "Khem Karan" and "Mona Bao"

yes i do agree that distance doesnt make any difference but you cannot supply arms in such a condition thats what happened.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

i am not hijacking the thread just answering your question.

we do remember 1971 and wait for the day when 2 parts of our country and Kashmir will form one country again and that will be the end of "Akhand Bharat" concept

What can one say to one who is devoid of realpolitik and ground realities.

Akhand Bharat is another bogus day dream that is there in the minds of fools!