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The Dravidian nationalists talk about a cultural invasion of Aryan culture onto the south. That is accepted by everyone, regardless of whether a physical Aryan invasion occurred or not.

Remember, the discussion here is about cultural (religious) conquests, not physical, and the fact is that Vedic culture was imposed on the south by force.

Read post #141 by Sashan.Vedic culture became part of South India even at 2000 BCE.The Tolkaappiyam, 1st century BCE grammar book,early-Vedic (Indra, Varuna) and Puranic (Vishnu) gods.The Vedic culture in South India has been in some respects the best preserved of ancient Vedic culture and traditions, especially when the north of India was dominated by Buddhism and later was affected by Islam.So how does your claim sticks,that Vedic culture in South India was imposed by force.



I will not belabor this point. There are various belief systems about the role of God in the universe. Atheism is one of many belief systems; others being monotheistic religions, pantheism, etc.

Atheism rejects the role of God in Universe completely.So how does it becomes another belief system.

I don't know what to tell you. Extremist Hindus do not accept the tribal deities.

You are full of prejudices.For example, your concept of "Extremist Hindu".You must first explain what does that mean.Their are some people who don't follow tribal gods their are many who actually does.These are things that are based on caste systems.

Disappearance of Buddhism From India: An Untold Story

There are many, many more resources on the net. Even your fellow Indians do not dispute that Buddhism was eradicated from India.

They are only one of the reasons of decline of Buddhism from various ancient India.hostility of the Hindu priestly caste of Brahmans are very well documented,but your hugely exaggerated claims of Buddhism eradication is largely unfounded.Main reason for the decline of Buddhism is the decline of Empires that traditionally gave patronage to Buddhism and surge of Hindu philosophers like Adi Shankara, along with Madhvacharya and Ramanuja, the trinity of the Revival of Hindu Philosophy.Arrival of Islamic invaders became the last nail in the coffin.
 
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Some interpretations of some religions.

Fair enough.



Were the ancestors of the ancient Balinese or Cambodians Hindu before the Chola empire came to town?

Are Hindus born that way out of the soil, or were their distant ancestors converted at some point?

The point is that all religions are acquired, and everyone is a convert or descended from converts.

Again a fair point, I was only referring to anyone presently advocating conversions.

Remember, the discussion here is about cultural (religious) conquests, not physical, and the fact is that Vedic culture was imposed on the south by force.

No evidence whatsoever to that effect & no memory of that supposed imposition though I suppose that a cultural amalgamation was both possible & likely. Your mistake is in assuming that such cultural transference was a one way phenomenon when evidence suggests that it was not. An amalgamation cannot be directly called a conversion because both parties are affected.
 
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That's the Hindutva roadmap to thwart secularism: smuggle Hinduism into a privileged role through the Trojan horse of culture.

I guess that is true.But Hindutva parties haven't had success in electoral politics.Since Hindutva is not the only factor that determines electoral victory.
 
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There is nothing like secularism in Indian constitution - the secularism is due to the majority(mark it as hindus) who hate extreme hinduism. So if you are talking about hindutva roadmap as enforcement of extreme hinduism then the majority will reject it.

Well, I am only going by what Indians tell me that secularism is solidly enshrined in the Indian constitution and there's no way to remove it. Hence Plan B: elevate Hinduism into a privileged role not as a religious, but a cultural construct.

And Pakistan is becoming its major victim through TV channels and movies. Isn't it ? ;)

We have shared the culture for centuries so nothing new. However, we differentiate between the cultural and the religious aspects.

So how does your claim sticks,that Vedic culture in South India was imposed by force.

The point is that Dravidian nationalists are adamant that the Vedic culture was imposed by force. Indeed, this forms a cornerstone of their nationalism.

Atheism rejects the role of God in Universe completely.So how does it becomes another belief system.

How many gods are there? 0, 1, many, infinite?

You know, ancient India was instrumental in establishing zero as a valid number ;)

"Extremist Hindu".You must first explain what does that mean.

Any Hindu who does not accept belief systems other than his own. Do you seriously deny that such Hindus exist?

Their are some people who don't follow tribal gods their are many who actually does.These are things that are based on caste systems.

And there are those extremists who claim that anyone who worships a tree deity or such is not a Hindu. Again, you can claim that no such extremists exist. Fine!

They are only one of the reasons of decline of Buddhism from various ancient India.hostility of the Hindu priestly caste of Brahmans are very well documented,but your hugely exaggerated claims of Buddhism eradication is largely unfounded.Main reason for the decline of Buddhism is the decline of Empires that traditionally gave patronage to Buddhism and surge of Hindu philosophers like Adi Shankara, along with Madhvacharya and Ramanuja, the trinity of the Revival of Hindu Philosophy.Arrival of Islamic invaders became the last nail in the coffin.

The decline of Buddhism was a long drawn out affair and I never said the Islamic invasions didn't play their part. However, the role of Brahminists was well established and the decline was already extensive before Muslims arrived.

No evidence whatsoever to that effect & no memory of that supposed imposition though I suppose that a cultural amalgamation was both possible & likely. Your mistake is in assuming that such cultural transference was a one way phenomenon when evidence suggests that it was not. An amalgamation cannot be directly called a conversion because both parties are affected.

There's not really much non-religious cultural transfer northwards in terms of language or other aspects, is there? Sure, there were religious contributions from southern scholars, but these happened long after the initial southward conquest.

Just because Luther was a German doesn't change the fact that Christianity was an imposition onto Germanic tribes initially.
 
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Nope.

Their abilility to survive 800 years of Mughals + Persians + Britishers + Many other rulers and still retain their numbers.

Btw, evil Yindoos birthrate is among the lowest among all major religions in India.

Approx 460 million muslims and 1 billion hindus in ancient india as a total, Pakistan + India + Bangladesh.

We did a great job. :)
 
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Well, I am only going by what Indians tell me that secularism is solidly enshrined in the Indian constitution and there's no way to remove it. Hence Plan B: elevate Hinduism into a privileged role not as a religious, but a cultural construct.

The Indian constitution had the word secular included in 1970s but only as a preamble. In fact, I am angry at the Indian leaders(read it as Nehru especially) post 1947 for not having secularism enshrined in the constitution and allowing the British practice of different civil laws for different religions to continue and which has contributed to the awakening of hindutva feelings among many of the Indians.
 
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Read post #141 by Sashan.Vedic culture became part of South India even at 2000 BCE.The Tolkaappiyam, 1st century BCE grammar book,early-Vedic (Indra, Varuna) and Puranic (Vishnu) gods.The Vedic culture in South India has been in some respects the best preserved of ancient Vedic culture and traditions, especially when the north of India was dominated by Buddhism and later was affected by Islam.So how does your claim sticks,that Vedic culture in South India was imposed by force.

Atheism rejects the role of God in Universe completely.So how does it becomes another belief system.

You are full of prejudices.For example, your concept of "Extremist Hindu".You must first explain what does that mean.Their are some people who don't follow tribal gods their are many who actually does.These are things that are based on caste systems.

They are only one of the reasons of decline of Buddhism from various ancient India.hostility of the Hindu priestly caste of Brahmans are very well documented,but your hugely exaggerated claims of Buddhism eradication is largely unfounded.Main reason for the decline of Buddhism is the decline of Empires that traditionally gave patronage to Buddhism and surge of Hindu philosophers like Adi Shankara, along with Madhvacharya and Ramanuja, the trinity of the Revival of Hindu Philosophy.Arrival of Islamic invaders became the last nail in the coffin.

When one has the single point agenda and a huge chip on the shoulders, any objectivity becomes the first casualty.

From my perspective:

India is a nation with Dharmic values at its core. It may have a large minority that it didn't ethnically cleanse like some others at the time of partition, it doesn't change the basic fact of our values.

Similarly the West has Judo Christian values at its core, despite the official secularism. Any time those values are threatened, there will be a strong backlash. We can already see signals in pockets. If the threat looms larger (or appears to loom larger), the backlash will increase.

The contiguous Islamic states from Maghrab to Pakistan can be said to have Islamic values at their core.

People need to just accept the realities and not forever try to justify their prejudices, fears and identity crisis.
 
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There's not really much non-religious cultural transfer northwards in terms of language or other aspects, is there? Sure, there were religious contributions from southern scholars, but these happened long after the initial southward conquest.

Just because Luther was a German doesn't change the fact that Christianity was an imposition onto Germanic tribes initially.

There is some influence of Dravidian languages on Sanskrit but my primary point is that religious deities were absorbed into the Hindu pantheon. Shiva may or may not be one such example. If the religion itself changed, it's then an amalgamation, a new creation, not necessarily an out & out conversion. I was not referring to latter day teachers but to the basic essence of Hinduism as believed now. While most Hindus put the Rg veda on a pedestal, no one really worships the Gods of the Rg veda anymore. That indicates evolution. If it is then argued(as many have done) that there was an incorporation of Dravidian/tribal deities, that would constitute an amalgamation of belief, not a conversion.
 
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Approx 460 million muslims and 1 billion hindus in ancient india as a total, Pakistan + India + Bangladesh.

We did a great job. :)

India is 85% Dharmic today. Compare that to all countries to our West. Not a trace of their culture and civilization remains.

Just the dreary sameness!

And you were done a great job on. At least the vast majority of you. ;)
 
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The Indian constitution had the word secular included in 1970s but only as a preamble. In fact, I am angry at the Indian leaders(read it as Nehru especially) post 1947 for not having secularism enshrined in the constitution and allowing the British practice of different civil laws for different religions to continue and which has contributed to the awakening of hindutva feelings among many of the Indians.

The constitution is secular, the preamble by itself is not as significant.
 
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Why don't you back that claim with relevant statistics.

Bro these protestant Christians have created a whole system which you have to follow if you become a convert into their religion... They pressurize you socially to follow very strict system, go to church every week at least, and they keep strick control over the converts... also they are very aggressive... I once went to a protestant church with one convert family... they tried to convert me in very first time...

also they use propaganda of very high level inside the Church... they tell you stories (ridiculous) ones of how people with paralysis got fine when they went to a Church etc etc. and then they have some convert come to stage and speak how his life has transformed into heaven by love of Jesus and how he was miserable in his life in his old religion.. and how Jesus has saved him... there is too much of these non sense things..


As mentioned in another post, the Dravidian nationalism is to do with language and script, not religion. You are free to read up on it, ask Tamil members on this forum itself.

Yes I have Tamil friends. HE took 2 weeks holiday to celebrate Diwali with his family... there is no question about him being a hindu... and its not forced on him.. Tamils been hindu always..

But I can tell you one thing.. he wont speak Hindi (he acts like he dont know hindi but I know he knows it :)) and he regards Tamil as the mother of all languages.. he doesnt believe Sanskrit is the mother of all languages...

so you are very right that for Tamils its only about language and Script...and Tamils are not fighting the Hindus :rofl:, as they are themselves Hindu..
 
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one day islam will dominate the world and after that atheism will dominate i think then messiah will come? correct me if im wrong

you are wrong.
it will be like this - Caliphate-> monarchy -> Anarchy -> Divided Muslims -> So many muslim deaths -> Many Arabs will die -> Allah will inspire a man to take the leadership of muslims overnight, and all muslims knew about him, they will obey him as Imam Mehdi -> Return of Caliphate -> numerous battle in KSA, Syria region -> Return of Jesus pbuh -> Battle in Israel -> peaceful muslim world -> Every pious muslim will die -> Doomsday

we are passing this era as stated in the hadith -

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al- wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” [An authentic hadith recorded by Abu Dawud and Ahmad]
 
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The constitution is secular, the preamble by itself is not as significant.


I would disagree with you - where is the separation of state and religion? why allow different civil laws for different religions ? The Indian constitution is nothing but an adoption of Government of India Act 1935 but whose basis is the Simon Commission report of 1928. Nehru report was prepared by Motilal for the same reason the Simon Commission report was prepared and which was much more secular in nature - single law for Indians and representation for muslims according to their percentage in various provinces to safeguard their interests. But Nehru ditched his father's vision and went in for his rival's vision.
 
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