GHQ Attack – India Strikes Again by Zaheerul Hassan

[BSF]

Pakistan Gives US, NATO Proof on India's Covert Links with Baitullah Mehsud | Haqeeqat.Org
US, Israel and India backing Baitullah Mehsud - Reveals close Aide | Haqeeqat.Org

Really ..this is the source that you trust?
Zaid Hamid would have been better source than Haqeeqat.Org
Mmff

 

[Peshwa]

What is "reality" is something neither of us know. Reality is presented to us in public with high amount of alteration to it, or parts taken out. You'll learn this in your beginners politics class. It may be a fantasy to you but I have good reason to believe it. Yes our country is at war with radicals, but they are getting their help from RAW and we have to crush the radicals AND where they are getting their funding from so as to stop them from propping up again.

To me it wouldn't make a difference if some other random country was supporting TTP, I would talk about it just like I am right now.

I am heavily supportive of Waziristan operation and was heavily supportive of Bajaur and Swat operation. I realize who we are at war with but at the same time we cannot just put a blind eye as to where they are getting support from..

Ahsan,...we can go on for ever about the source of funding for TTP.....

Point remains, it is not the RAW agents blowing themselves up and killing Pakistani's, its your own people.....

Like I have mentioned, US couldnt care less about Pakistani civilians dying. The reason why they don't care about covert support to TTP and is because TTP is solely concentrated on attacking Pakistan. US wants Pakistan to attack the extremists who are attacking NATO in Afghanistan and the TTP are secondary target as far as US is concerned. Yes in public they will say something else, but in private they could care less about TTP killing civilians. And no, all Taliban are not the same, i.e. some have different targets and goals than others.

You may ask as to why they killed Baitullah if TTP is secondary target to them, which would be a valid question. That would be because ISI tells them there are high-value targets present at a certain location, but not who is present. So when they killed Baitullah, they didn't know who was getting killed.

Now if TTP start threatening US then yes they will react to them. But right now they couldnt care less about them.

I dont agree with the above one bit.........but you're entitled to your opinion....Ill leave it at that....

 

[deckingraj]

I think you misunderstood me. I clearly mentioned that TTP is getting foreign help. I never said that the help was being provided officially and categorically. Similar to the Mumbai case, where the 'non-state' factors never got the highlight, what all everyone heard was that Pakistan is involved. While, partially true that the Pakistan soil may be used but the fact that 'non-state' instruments being responsible were hardly given a thought. It was as if Pakistan itself carried out the terrorist attack and the majority still thinks this being true.

Thats the whole point dear...Thanks for saying it ...Yes majority believes it is true but we were never not able to provide any proof for ISI involvement...All we said that such a co-ordinated attack cannot be carried by Non-State actors... Now let's try and discuss about the foreign help part...Also to avoid ambiguity i am asking you some questions...if possible try and reply them as asked and post your counter questions...

So my point was based upon that there are factors 'state' or 'non-state' in India that could've possibly provided TTP with the required expertise. Again this is just my analysis, and the truth may very well be far from it. But the way I see things, is who gains the most from a certain event. Although not entirely true in every case, but certainly reveals a broad spectrum when you consider it.

Well i know it is your analysis but i thats what i am trying to challenge...Let me try once again...

- Do you think that for every action there has to be a motive...unless one is plain stupid...???
- If the answer to above questions is Yes...then please help me understand what is motive of india behind helping TTP??? Destabalize Pak and some has gone to the extent of saying de-neuclarize pak...???? Here are my counter points to them..so please share your thoughts..
a) India would love to bleed pak(i mean why not we would love to return the favor that we got in Kashmir)...but then for us its a nightmare scenario when we see pak in hands of radicals...Dont you think india helping TTP is counter productive??
b) I have repeatedly said TTP is anti india. Just recently their leader claimed that after implementing sharia in Pak we will attack india...i have posted links for that....just google it you will get many...As of now our media is causing shivers in India saying that TTP has striked just 16 KM away form Amritsar and means they will soon be able to attack across the border...Our Home minister is also concerned about it...what does that indicate to you??? We consider TTP as an enemy..We dont have any sympathy for them...
c) US is fighting against TTP...Now do you think at the time when we really want to have good relations with US(Nuclear Deal...defence deals and what not) GOI would be stupid enough to provide help to TTP and face US ire???
d) Majority of attacks on India are carried by Foreign Nationals(Big one's - Mumbai, Parliament Attack etc) whereas Almost all the attacks on Pak is carried by Pak Nationals...
e) Pak herself has admitted that terrorists indeed were used as strategic assets in past...Recently your President
f) Pak U-turn policy on afghanistan was supposed to have an after effect...what you think?

Kindly visit the following links regarding Baitullah Mehsud and the involvement of US, Israel and India.
Pakistan Gives US, NATO Proof on India's Covert Links with Baitullah Mehsud | Haqeeqat.Org
US, Israel and India backing Baitullah Mehsud - Reveals close Aide | Haqeeqat.Org
Just to post an extract:
During his recent trip to Pakistan Holbrooke was in clear-cut terms told to talk to India on this matter as Baitullah does not have resources to stand up before the army and he is clearly getting external aid. Upon this Holbrooke assured the Pakistanis that he would take up this matter with India at the diplomatic level. The Afghan government has also been told to stop the use of Indian consulates against Pakistan.

Talking to Sana Bucha in Crisis Cell programme of Geo News, Haji Turkistan said that he was with Baitullah, who had stated that he had sent two persons to Rawalpindi for assassinating Benazir Bhutto. He also revealed that Baitullah is an American agent and this is the reason he has not been targeted by the US drones. (This was a June article).

This comes after Qari Zainuddin, a rival commander of Tehrik-e-Taliban Chief Baitullah Mehsud, on Wednesday disclosed that the TTP has links with India and Israel. He said that Baitullah Mehsud has acted against Islam as well as the country and if not eliminated now, militancy would surge and problems for the government would grow.

Yes I know the US wouldn't help him. But everyone is invited to form their own opinion after reading such articles.

Thanks for sharing the articles...You rightly said that everyone is invited to form their own opinion...Now we are not denying that there is a mood in Pak that all the wrong doings are happening because of Foreign Hand(read india) but that's where intellectuals need to challenge and see if its just sentiments or Logical.. What say??? as far as telling the diplomat is concerned it means not much unless some proofs are shown...As far as i know we havent heard of any such thing being told to India by US...do you??

- Agreed with first point.

- Yes they must be getting help for keeping the war ongoing for so long and fingers can also be pointed towards India, Russia, China and Iran unless proven otherwise. Because to gain regional superiority once US and NATO forces leave.

- Agreed .

Good to hear that we do agree on some points ...But just saying that they are getting foreign help is not enough...We need to go a little deep than that....I agree everyone would like to increase their influence..but dont think that any of the countries you mentioned can directly challenge USA...They just can't...I know about India...We were and are anti-taliban...we always supported Northern Alliance and it would be stupid to think we are helping Taliban in any way...Man they are even targetting out consulates...and as far as our huge number of consulates and development work is concerned...it need no brainer to crack the motive...i.e. increase our influence..
Waiting to hear your side of story...

Cheers
Rajwinder Singh

 

[AHMED85]

today Pakistan is now under attack ................


i think we all should pray to god for blessing on our country


the law enforce agencies doing their work






don't you all worried about Pakistan


the peace of Ashia is depending on Pakistan if Pakistan would not remaining than all Ashia would destroyed

in shah Allah we will able in few time to grip on all terror activates

 

[r0ck]

- Do you think that for every action there has to be a motive...unless one is plain stupid...???

Yes, for every action their has to be a motive. 'Motive' is the first puzzle to solve in any mystery case. Nobody blows him/herself up without a motive. Let it be to de-moralise, weaken and spread panic among the masses or maybe to gain the utmost stages of 'Heaven'. So the point is nobody steals and kills people for fun, there has to be a motive.

- If the answer to above questions is Yes...then please help me understand what is motive of india behind helping TTP??? Destabalize Pak and some has gone to the extent of saying de-neuclarize pak...????

Exactly. You can also browse through the countless articles about the notorious Indian Intelligence agency 'RAW' about how they have de-stabilized countries and strengthened terrorist groups to magnify the Indian interests among those nations, one of those is on this forum as well. Let's be honest, India has never really accepted the existence of Pakistan, and the story continues to unfold even today. So, an economically weakened Pakistan without nuclear weapons alongwith a softened military due to the terrorist operation IS in the best interests of India. Furthermore, you have also seconded my thoughts by further stating that :

a) India would love to bleed pak(i mean why not we would love to return the favor that we got in Kashmir)...but then for us its a nightmare scenario when we see pak in hands of radicals...Dont you think india helping TTP is counter productive??

I don't think so that it is counter-productive for India to help TTP. Let me elaborate. The Taliban's government in Afghanistan was only recognized by 2 countries in the world, Pakistan and Saudia Arabia. By your views, the Taliban could've attacked Pakistan because for their radical attitude towards society, but that didn't happen. What happened, was Pakistan gained regional superiority because Islamabad had it's stooges in Kabul that would compromise Pakistan's interests. I don't see a reason why this shouldn't happen again. It's like that saying, "Same s*it, different toilet".

b) I have repeatedly said TTP is anti india. Just recently their leader claimed that after implementing sharia in Pak we will attack india...i have posted links for that....just google it you will get many...As of now our media is causing shivers in India saying that TTP has striked just 16 KM away form Amritsar and means they will soon be able to attack across the border...Our Home minister is also concerned about it...what does that indicate to you??? We consider TTP as an enemy..We dont have any sympathy for them...

I agree with you on this one, partially, becasue of TTP's track record in keeping up it's promises and statements. The operation started in south waziristan just now, is the fourth of it's kind. One started in 2004, second in 2005 and the third in early 2008. All of these ended up in peace negotaitions, with TTP agreeing to sustain to certain limits. Also, similiar deals had been made with the TTP before the Swat operation began. All ended in vain with the TTP not ascertaining to the accord. The point is that we not only 'consider' TTP an enemy. But also 'consider' that they have a tendency of falling out of their promises, a consideration apparently not being evaluated. We definitely know the TTP can change it's stance without any regards and a helping hand realistically would be greatly appreciated.

c) US is fighting against TTP...Now do you think at the time when we really want to have good relations with US(Nuclear Deal...defence deals and what not) GOI would be stupid enough to provide help to TTP and face US ire???

No, the US is not fighting against TTP. They are fighting against the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Pakistan army is fighting against the TTP. The two, although inter-related, are completely different outfits with different motives. The Taliban in Afghanistan see the US presence as occupation of their country similiar to Israel, whilst the TTP want their version of 'Sharia' implemented in Pakistan. And I don't see why providing help to TTP for a weakened Pakistan state would irk US. Their intentions as projected by the Kerry-Lugar bill are now crystal clear.

d) Majority of attacks on India are carried by Foreign Nationals(Big one's - Mumbai, Parliament Attack etc) whereas Almost all the attacks on Pak is carried by Pak Nationals...

And that means what? That their is absolutely no chance of the other country's involvement, because your compatriot did it. Or maybe it lifts all the assumptions that there is no way anyone was involved and it has to be someone local. Whoever does the attacks, foreign or national, only implies the origin of the terrorist. It doesn't relieve the fact that for whom the mission was carried out. For all we know, Ajmal Kasab maybe a mujahid caught in Kashmir and now is being projected as the one of the terrorist who carried out the Mumbai attacks.

e) Pak herself has admitted that terrorists indeed were used as strategic assets in past...Recently your President

And what about LTTE? Which you mentioned in your previous post yourself:

- After we realize that creating LTTE was a mistake we send our peace keeping force in Sri Lanka and boy you know what eventually happened..we had to retreat....

I'm pretty sure the LTTE was used as a strategic asset and was not a, ....well 'peaceful' measure to say the least.

f) Pak U-turn policy on afghanistan was supposed to have an after effect...what you think?

I am unaware of such a policy, therefore, I have no idea about the after effects. Your guess is good as mine on this one.

Thanks for sharing the articles...You rightly said that everyone is invited to form their own opinion...Now we are not denying that there is a mood in Pak that all the wrong doings are happening because of Foreign Hand(read india) but that's where intellectuals need to challenge and see if its just sentiments or Logical.. What say??? as far as telling the diplomat is concerned it means not much unless some proofs are shown...As far as i know we havent heard of any such thing being told to India by US...do you??

As far as the mood is concerned, I think it's pretty much reciprocal to India. I mean the Mumbai attack is just one example. Just when the attacks happened everyone blamed Pakistan. Right or not is another story but to judge at such an early stage, really shows that mood in India is, comparatively, a bit worse than in Pakistan. About logical explanation, well so far no 'definitive' proofs have been shown. But their are some pictures floating around the web of the terrorists in TTP who are non-muslims. So definitely, and logically speaking we are not fighting against only muslims here, but who are the non-muslims actually, is yet to be ascertained.

Good to hear that we do agree on some points ...But just saying that they are getting foreign help is not enough...We need to go a little deep than that....I agree everyone would like to increase their influence..but dont think that any of the countries you mentioned can directly challenge USA...They just can't...I know about India...We were and are anti-taliban...we always supported Northern Alliance and it would be stupid to think we are helping Taliban in any way...Man they are even targetting out consulates...and as far as our huge number of consulates and development work is concerned...it need no brainer to crack the motive...i.e. increase our influence..
Waiting to hear your side of story...

Cheers
Rajwinder Singh

BTW, I meant to 'help' gain regional superiority 'once' the US and NATO forces 'leave'. AFAIK, no-one is looking forward to challenge the US, but if it were the case Russia and China would look the likely candidates. And yes of course, India is planning to increase regional influence.


Hope you had a good time reading .

 

[deckingraj]

Hey Rock

Great that you replied.. Let me share my thoughts one by one...

Exactly. You can also browse through the countless articles about the notorious Indian Intelligence agency 'RAW' about how they have de-stabilized countries and strengthened terrorist groups to magnify the Indian interests among those nations, one of those is on this forum as well.

Are you referring to BD??? Or Sri lanka??? Though i can challenge and counter challenge your points here but would suggest let's not get into that...Intelligence agencies on both sides can be accused of same NOTORIOUS activities...so i will leave it there..Let's concentrate on TTP and indian angle for now...

Let's be honest, India has never really accepted the existence of Pakistan, and the story continues to unfold even today.

Well my friend that's a myth...Pakistan is a separate entity for us... This is what is being tought to us in schools...Average indian would like to see pakistan getting destroyed rather than being united with India(I am sure same goes for Pakistani's). No Offense but if you see we are more than a billion people already with lots of problems..Adding pakistan to us will just increase our problems...Its not practical neither is smart thinking...Please be rest assured that we are at least that smart...

So, an economically weakened Pakistan without nuclear weapons alongwith a softened military due to the terrorist operation IS in the best interests of India. Furthermore, you have also seconded my thoughts by further stating that :

Well again i guess you missed my point...DId i ever deny that we would love to see pakistant without nukes or militarily week??? Comon man we are adversary... I always said that de-stabalized Pak is a nightmare for India......NOw as far as TTP is concerend the moment they will come to power the region will see its first and last nuclear conflict...So it is counter productive to help TTP...

I don't think so that it is counter-productive for India to help TTP. Let me elaborate. The Taliban's government in Afghanistan was only recognized by 2 countries in the world, Pakistan and Saudia Arabia. x

It is and thats what i am trying to explain...TTP is as much our enemy as Al-qaeda or afghan taliban because india is considered as Unislamic and opressor of muslims especially in Kashmir....

By your views, the Taliban could've attacked Pakistan because for their radical attitude towards society, but that didn't happen.

I am sorry i didn't get it..what views made you say that???...Why would have taliban attacked Pakistan...Pakistan is an islamic country and the only one of two that recognized their government...In other words they supported taliban in access to power...Before 9/11 it was pak's backyard because of obvious reasons

What happened, was Pakistan gained regional superiority because Islamabad had it's stooges in Kabul that would compromise Pakistan's interests. I don't see a reason why this shouldn't happen again. It's like that saying, "Same s*it, different toilet".

I disagree. Simple reason being its Northern Alliance that is in Power...but is it in absolute term?? Obviously not...However i dont think Pak can now exhibit the same influence it used to have....Nato is there and by the time they will be off India would have also emerged as a regional player..Complement it with Northern Alliance affinity towards india its sounds reasonable...Now what actually will happen only time will tell...

I agree with you on this one, partially, becasue of TTP's track record in keeping up it's promises and statements. The operation started in south waziristan just now, is the fourth of it's kind. One started in 2004, second in 2005 and the third in early 2008. All of these ended up in peace negotaitions, with TTP agreeing to sustain to certain limits. Also, similiar deals had been made with the TTP before the Swat operation began. All ended in vain with the TTP not ascertaining to the accord. The point is that we not only 'consider' TTP an enemy. But also 'consider' that they have a tendency of falling out of their promises, a consideration apparently not being evaluated. We definitely know the TTP can change it's stance without any regards and a helping hand realistically would be greatly appreciated.

Agreed why wouldn't they like to have helping hand...But why would India help them when we very well know that Pak army is killing those who are threatning us...IN fact we would love to see TTP go for good...

No, the US is not fighting against TTP. They are fighting against the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Pakistan army is fighting against the TTP. The two, although inter-related, are completely different outfits with different motives. The Taliban in Afghanistan see the US presence as occupation of their country similiar to Israel, whilst the TTP want their version of 'Sharia' implemented in Pakistan. And I don't see why providing help to TTP for a weakened Pakistan state would irk US.

Help me here buddy...All the drone attacks that are happening inside Pakistan are only against Afghan Taliban??? Are you serious...You know that "Hakimullah Mehsud" was killed by US drone attack right??? I hope you are aware that now more than even US is not distingushing between Terrorist Groups and consider them all linked in one way or another...Now when it comes to dealing with them obviously there presence is in Afghanistan and they are acting(ground action) against them...And they expect Pakistan Forces to take care of TTP and other like minded groups within their territory...Otherwise May i ask why are you getting economic aid from US when you have nothing to do with Afghan Taliban or for that matter TTP fight is just Pakistan Fight and US has nothing to do with it???

Their intentions as projected by the Kerry-Lugar bill are now crystal clear.

Care to elaborate more on this...

And that means what? That their is absolutely no chance of the other country's involvement, because your compatriot did it. Or maybe it lifts all the assumptions that there is no way anyone was involved and it has to be someone local. Whoever does the attacks, foreign or national, only implies the origin of the terrorist. It doesn't relieve the fact that for whom the mission was carried out.

I did not mean to offend you...What i am trying to say by that comparison is that using Taliban as a strategic asset by Pakistan was indeed a mistake and now its hitting them back...In other words home grown terrorists are hitting you because of not going the line they want you to follow..a perfect frankestein...

For all we know, Ajmal Kasab maybe a mujahid caught in Kashmir and now is being projected as the one of the terrorist who carried out the Mumbai attacks.

I know what are you trying to say but as far as Kasab is concerned we all know who he is and from where he came...Rest i have made my intentions clear on what i wanted to say in above given point

And what about LTTE? Which you mentioned in your previous post yourself:

Exactly.. We admitted our mistake and helped Sri Lanka clean the mess...What i am trying to say that pak is also going through the same phase...Cleaning the mess she created herself...So dont blaim india or other's its your own mess that you created...If LTTE can give india a tough fight without any foreign help so does TTP

I'm pretty sure the LTTE was used as a strategic asset and was not a, ....well 'peaceful' measure to say the least

I am sorry didn't get you...We send indian army as peace keeping force to fight against LTTE. Lot of indian soldiers died in it...Yes indeed they were used as strategic asset but then we realized the mistake and corrected it...I hope i am clear this time...

I am unaware of such a policy, therefore, I have no idea about the after effects. Your guess is good as mine on this one.

Fair statement...BUt i would request you to do some googling and read about it....Pakistan supported NATO forces against Taliban after 9/11 which was termed as U-Turn from its Afghanistan policy where Taliban was considered as Pakistani Puppet...You might have heard the quotes after 9/11... "Either with us or with them", "We will bring Pakistan to Stone AGe" etc etc after which Musharaff opted to help US/NAto against Taliban...He himself said that in an interview to some US magazine(if i can recollect correctly)

As far as the mood is concerned, I think it's pretty much reciprocal to India. I mean the Mumbai attack is just one example. Just when the attacks happened everyone blamed Pakistan. Right or not is another story but to judge at such an early stage, really shows that mood in India is, comparatively, a bit worse than in Pakistan. About logical explanation, well so far no 'definitive' proofs have been shown

.

Thanks for saying it...As i am fighting hard with many pakistan friends where they say Solid proof has been shared secretly blah blah....

But their are some pictures floating around the web of the terrorists in TTP who are non-muslims. So definitely, and logically speaking we are not fighting against only muslims here, but who are the non-muslims actually, is yet to be ascertained.

Bro...please dont fall for such things...TTP being radical muslims taking help from non-muslims?? Its absurd.. You know right that once these people loose public support than they will die on their own..so they cannot and will not do that will challenge their identity and thereby survival..Period... Also may i ask how do you know that a person is muslim or not by pictures(now dont say beard and blah blah)??? Anyways its all propaganda so please challenge it with Logic. I am more than happy to admit that india(Raw) has send hindu's in pakistan to do bomo blasts(which we all know is not the case) but then have managed to add hindu's in TTP is really stupid to even think of...

BTW, I meant to 'help' gain regional superiority 'once' the US and NATO forces 'leave'. AFAIK, no-one is looking forward to challenge the US, but if it were the case Russia and China would look the likely candidates. And yes of course, India is planning to increase regional influence.

Yes you are right..everybody would love to do that but cannot directly challenge US interests i.e. helping Taliban(in afgahn or in Pak)...in anyway...India is indeed doing the same thing..I mean look at it...We are working on increasing our influence in Afghanistan..Nato is fighting woth Afghan Taliban whom we always wanted to destroy(india's help to Northern Alliance)...Pak is fighting with TTP and we are using diplomacy to put pressure on her to fight with LET etc as well...Just think why would we like to do anything that can spoil this platter for us????

Hope you had a good time reading

I had ...and returning you the same favor...

BY the way Happy Diwali

 

[r0ck]

Happy Diwali to you as well! Hope you enjoyed it.

I'll try to keep this short as now this is getting argumentative.

Are you referring to BD??? Or Sri lanka??? Though i can challenge and counter challenge your points here but would suggest let's not get into that...Intelligence agencies on both sides can be accused of same NOTORIOUS activities...so i will leave it there..Let's concentrate on TTP and indian angle for now...

Agreed let's stick to TTP & India.

Well my friend that's a myth...Pakistan is a separate entity for us... This is what is being tought to us in schools...Average indian would like to see pakistan getting destroyed rather than being united with India(I am sure same goes for Pakistani's). No Offense but if you see we are more than a billion people already with lots of problems..Adding pakistan to us will just increase our problems...Its not practical neither is smart thinking...Please be rest assured that we are at least that smart...

That is a very vague point. You've said that average Indian would like to see Pakistan destroyed. What would happen if it does? Will the land of Pakistan just disappear from earth. It would of-course, form part of some other nation, just like it has been with formation and de-formation of nations since thousands of years. So you say you'd (average Indian ) like to see Pakistan destroyed but not form part of India? You see, I do agree with you that the Indians are very smart, but for us Pakistanis it's like they say, "Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

Well again i guess you missed my point...DId i ever deny that we would love to see pakistant without nukes or militarily week??? Comon man we are adversary... I always said that de-stabalized Pak is a nightmare for India......NOw as far as TTP is concerend the moment they will come to power the region will see its first and last nuclear conflict...So it is counter productive to help TTP...

Agreed why wouldn't they like to have helping hand...But why would India help them when we very well know that Pak army is killing those who are threatning us...IN fact we would love to see TTP go for good...

It is and thats what i am trying to explain...TTP is as much our enemy as Al-qaeda or afghan taliban because india is considered as Unislamic and opressor of muslims especially in Kashmir....

Agreed, you never said that you'd like to see Pakistan without nukes or with a weakened militarily. But you did say that and I quote "India would love to bleed pak(i mean why not we would love to return the favor that we got in Kashmir)". The point I'm trying to make is that what would really make Pakistan bleed is a weakened military and no nuke arsenal. As it is, we are bleeding right now and have been since this so-called 'war-on-terror' started, but the real bleeding is when our security institutions are weakened and our nukes de-commissioned. That's the point I'm trying to make.

With regards to TTP coming into power, I'm afraid it's the same thinking from all foreign people. There is NO WAY, absolutely no way that TTP can come into power in Pakistan. I mean what, 60 or 70,000 militants max, against the world's 7th largest army. It'll never happen. It's as ironic as saying that Pakistan will come into power in India, it is utter rubbish.

As I said earlier that I partially agree with you on this one, as TTP is in dire stages at the moment and any help would be greatly appreciated. This may very well be not the case, but a consideration we have to take, nonetheless.

I am sorry i didn't get it..what views made you say that???...Why would have taliban attacked Pakistan...Pakistan is an islamic country and the only one of two that recognized their government...In other words they supported taliban in access to power...Before 9/11 it was pak's backyard because of obvious reasons

The views that radical muslims would attack India. What I said if you have the higher hierarchy with you, then you shouldn't be worried about such attacks and I gave the example of Taliban (when in power) and Pakistan, where now the TTP see problems with Pakistan society, the Taliban in Afghanistan never saw any. And to be honest, bringing religious values in these warfares is just a shade.

I disagree. Simple reason being its Northern Alliance that is in Power...but is it in absolute term?? Obviously not...However i dont think Pak can now exhibit the same influence it used to have....Nato is there and by the time they will be off India would have also emerged as a regional player..Complement it with Northern Alliance affinity towards india its sounds reasonable...Now what actually will happen only time will tell...

That is exactly what I said, everyone wants a bigger piece of the pie. Once, the US and NATO forces leave, it'll be upto the regional players to throw their cards for gaining regional influence. I only said that in past, Pakistan had it's cards on the table in Afghanistan and after US and NATO forces leave India would like to have theirs. So the quote goes ("same s*hit, different toilet").

Help me here buddy...All the drone attacks that are happening inside Pakistan are only against Afghan Taliban??? Are you serious...You know that "Hakimullah Mehsud" was killed by US drone attack right??? I hope you are aware that now more than even US is not distingushing between Terrorist Groups and consider them all linked in one way or another...Now when it comes to dealing with them obviously there presence is in Afghanistan and they are acting(ground action) against them...And they expect Pakistan Forces to take care of TTP and other like minded groups within their territory...Otherwise May i ask why are you getting economic aid from US when you have nothing to do with Afghan Taliban or for that matter TTP fight is just Pakistan Fight and US has nothing to do with it???

Care to elaborate more on this...

I think you've mis-understood me here. You said that US is fighting against the TTP. I said they are fighting against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes there are drone attacks inside Pakistan against the members of TTP, but whose really fighting the TTP are the Pakistan army. You rightly said that Pakistan has been receiving aid for that regard which I completely agree and it also helps you understand that had the drone attacks worked US would've never given Pakistan any aid for this military action. The aid been given by US further strengthens the argument that it's the Pakistan army who is fighting TTP.

Have a look at the following article. To give a glimpse it tells you that the ISI has mentioned 'many' times to CIA to target Behtullah Mehsud but CIA never obliged. I ask a humble question was a single time not enough? You see it's these kind of acts that make the US itchy for our taste and therefore, not trustworthy no matter what. And I'm sure this is not the first that it's happened.

Is Baitullah really dead?

With regards to Kerry-Lugar bill, it had a few outrageous conditions namely:
> US will gain access to any person relating to Pakistan nulcear program (Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan).
> No restrictions on US citizens inside Pakistan.
> US opinion highlighted for major Pakistan Postings.

For more information visit the following link:

Kerry-Lugar Bill: still seeking control over Pakistan

I did not mean to offend you...What i am trying to say by that comparison is that using Taliban as a strategic asset by Pakistan was indeed a mistake and now its hitting them back...In other words home grown terrorists are hitting you because of not going the line they want you to follow..a perfect frankestein...

I know what are you trying to say but as far as Kasab is concerned we all know who he is and from where he came...Rest i have made my intentions clear on what i wanted to say in above given point


Exactly.. We admitted our mistake and helped Sri Lanka clean the mess...What i am trying to say that pak is also going through the same phase...Cleaning the mess she created herself...So dont blaim india or other's its your own mess that you created...If LTTE can give india a tough fight without any foreign help so does TTP

None taken, I'm all up for a constructive argument . Yes the "Perfect Frankenstein" analogy is correct. We just have to make sure that the 'Frankenstein' doesn't get alternative power sources.

About Kasab, you're right that's off-topic, don't know why I mentioned him that but anyways.

Yes they certainly are giving Pakistan a tough fight, but the foreign help segment becomes debatable when we see a monthly salary of a Taliban Soldier at Rs. 15,000 and that of a commander at Rs. 25,000. Again as I've said earlier that these are my analysis and these will only be speculations until 'proof' is provided. I mean I'm an accountant and those sort of salaries are being offered to TTP which are actually equal to a few friends of mine working at various banks. And seeing snipers, IEDs, machine guns all freely available. The 14 Indian consulates along the border with military officers stationed at all of them. Seeing our past India-Pakistan record. The bit India really 'helping' Pakistan, it just doesn't all add up.

I am sorry didn't get you...We send indian army as peace keeping force to fight against LTTE. Lot of indian soldiers died in it...Yes indeed they were used as strategic asset but then we realized the mistake and corrected it...I hope i am clear this time...

That was sarcasm, I thought you'd get it. Anyways we're clear here.

Fair statement...BUt i would request you to do some googling and read about it....Pakistan supported NATO forces against Taliban after 9/11 which was termed as U-Turn from its Afghanistan policy where Taliban was considered as Pakistani Puppet...You might have heard the quotes after 9/11... "Either with us or with them", "We will bring Pakistan to Stone AGe" etc etc after which Musharaff opted to help US/NAto against Taliban...He himself said that in an interview to some US magazine(if i can recollect correctly)


.

Thanks for saying it...As i am fighting hard with many pakistan friends where they say Solid proof has been shared secretly blah blah....



Bro...please dont fall for such things...TTP being radical muslims taking help from non-muslims?? Its absurd.. You know right that once these people loose public support than they will die on their own..so they cannot and will not do that will challenge their identity and thereby survival..Period... Also may i ask how do you know that a person is muslim or not by pictures(now dont say beard and blah blah)??? Anyways its all propaganda so please challenge it with Logic. I am more than happy to admit that india(Raw) has send hindu's in pakistan to do bomo blasts(which we all know is not the case) but then have managed to add hindu's in TTP is really stupid to even think of...


Yes you are right..everybody would love to do that but cannot directly challenge US interests i.e. helping Taliban(in afgahn or in Pak)...in anyway...India is indeed doing the same thing..I mean look at it...We are working on increasing our influence in Afghanistan..Nato is fighting woth Afghan Taliban whom we always wanted to destroy(india's help to Northern Alliance)...Pak is fighting with TTP and we are using diplomacy to put pressure on her to fight with LET etc as well...Just think why would we like to do anything that can spoil this platter for us????

With regards to U-turn policy what you said is probably correct and I'll take your word for it.

The pictures I was mentioning about are of un-circumsized men who were fighting with the TTP. If you don't know what is 'circumsize' or 'un-circumsize' google it. Basically, in Islam it is imperative that men are circumsized, whoever is a muslim male by birth will be circumsized. So technically, speaking anyone fighting for TTP should be a muslim. But it appears that's not the case.

Agreed, and yes the pressure is on Pakistan from India to eradicate the LET, but there is also pressure on other fronts from India. Just recently, India objected to any aid being prescribed for Pakistan and also regular objection for any military hardware that Pakistan buys. Again the 'love to bleed' theory.

I had ...and returning you the same favor...

 

[deckingraj]

I'll try to keep this short as now this is getting argumentative.

Great thought..I will try the same..Let me try and sum up the points what we are discussing.. Please fee free to add more to it...
a) India help to TTP
b) Helping TTP is against US interest's...

That is a very vague point. You've said that average Indian would like to see Pakistan destroyed. What would happen if it does? Will the land of Pakistan just disappear from earth. It would of-course, form part of some other nation, just like it has been with formation and de-formation of nations since thousands of years. So you say you'd (average Indian ) like to see Pakistan destroyed but not form part of India?

Valid point..Let me make mine clear...When i said destroyed i meant that a conclusive defeat militarily not like occupying the whole country or something like that...Occupying a country is not possible these days and not at all desired by average people on both sides..

You see, I do agree with you that the Indians are very smart, but for us Pakistanis it's like they say, "Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

very fair statement.. we all should do that...

Agreed, you never said that you'd like to see Pakistan without nukes or with a weakened militarily. But you did say that and I quote "India would love to bleed pak(i mean why not we would love to return the favor that we got in Kashmir)". The point I'm trying to make is that what would really make Pakistan bleed is a weakened military and no nuke arsenal. As it is, we are bleeding right now and have been since this so-called 'war-on-terror' started, but the real bleeding is when our security institutions are weakened and our nukes de-commissioned. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Very fair statement..I never denied your bleeding part...and that's the reason said above we would love to do that...However my point is by what means??? Helping TTP to bleed pak is counter productive...and against out national and geo-political interest... I am not saying India is saint here but helping TTP is agaisnt our interests both strategically and geo-politically..

The views that radical muslims would attack India. What I said if you have the higher hierarchy with you, then you shouldn't be worried about such attacks and I gave the example of Taliban (when in power) and Pakistan, where now the TTP see problems with Pakistan society, the Taliban in Afghanistan never saw any.

See bro...why do you think Kashmir is an issue between India and Pak(4 wars are not worth it)...It is because thats the life line of out politicians...their ideology(though less in india than in Pak)...Now whats the ideology of TTP or any terrorist organization...Rule of islam...and to punish the suppresors like hindus, zinonist and what not...Arm these radicals with nuclear weapons and thereafter one need no brainer to contemplate what will happen... As far as afghan taliban not attacking Pak is concerned i did say in my last post they have no reason to...There was no clash of interests...With Pak helping US in afghanistan clash started...and the mess...

And to be honest, bringing religious values in these warfares is just a shade.

Yes it is shade...but thats what drive a common man...I honestly dont think these terrorist have anything to do with ISlam but then you know how they use religion to brainwash youth...So one will do anything but not hurt the common man sentiments...See what TTP just said...after implementing Sharia in Pak they will attack India...so they are playing the religion card...Rule of islam in pak and punishing the opressor...

That is exactly what I said, everyone wants a bigger piece of the pie. Once, the US and NATO forces leave, it'll be upto the regional players to throw their cards for gaining regional influence. I only said that in past, Pakistan had it's cards on the table in Afghanistan and after US and NATO forces leave India would like to have theirs. So the quote goes ("same s*hit, different toilet").

Agreed...

I think you've mis-understood me here. You said that US is fighting against the TTP. I said they are fighting against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes there are drone attacks inside Pakistan against the members of TTP, but whose really fighting the TTP are the Pakistan army.

I also said that its Pakistan army that is fighting TTP but why US is giving aid to you...because they want you to fight against TTP..NOw the point that they are reluctant to kill TTP leaders or not..i am not sure so won't comment...But truth of the day is that they are gving you aid and have defnitely killed their Leader and many more..a clear indicative that TTP is considered an enemy for US...Big or small is debatable but it is an enemy and helping the enemy is challenging US interests..wht say??

With regards to Kerry-Lugar bill, it had a few outrageous conditions namely:
> US will gain access to any person relating to Pakistan nulcear program (Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan).
> No restrictions on US citizens inside Pakistan.
> US opinion highlighted for major Pakistan Postings.

Indeed they are outrageous...I am sure Pakistani's will fight it out...However there were lot of eye-brows raised on the use of aid vs the results..and the above conditions is a direct result of that...Though not sure how mentioning it helps in our current discussion....

Yes they certainly are giving Pakistan a tough fight, but the foreign help segment becomes debatable when we see a monthly salary of a Taliban Soldier at Rs. 15,000 and that of a commander at Rs. 25,000. Again as I've said earlier that these are my analysis and these will only be speculations until 'proof' is provided. I mean I'm an accountant and those sort of salaries are being offered to TTP which are actually equal to a few friends of mine working at various banks. And seeing snipers, IEDs, machine guns all freely available. The 14 Indian consulates along the border with military officers stationed at all of them. Seeing our past India-Pakistan record. The bit India really 'helping' Pakistan, it just doesn't all add up.

Again fair statement...Thats what i said that intellectuals need to challenge the obvious things....Same can be said about LET..Al-Qaida...Afghan Taliban...from where the money and arms is coming...So my friend my point is to question on motive...As per me India's motive to help TTP bleed pakistan is flawed...

The pictures I was mentioning about are of un-circumsized men who were fighting with the TTP. If you don't know what is 'circumsize' or 'un-circumsize' google it. Basically, in Islam it is imperative that men are circumsized, whoever is a muslim male by birth will be circumsized. So technically, speaking anyone fighting for TTP should be a muslim. But it appears that's not the case.

Hmm thanks for the info..Cant comment on it and hope its not propaganda of any sort..Anyways will go with what you said....

Agreed, and yes the pressure is on Pakistan from India to eradicate the LET, but there is also pressure on other fronts from India. Just recently, India objected to any aid being prescribed for Pakistan and also regular objection for any military hardware that Pakistan buys. Again the 'love to bleed' theory.

You are mostly right here but let me correct you a little...India never objected to Non-military aid to Pakistan..Our point is help Pak non-militarily becuase a stable pak is in our interest but ensure that money given is used for the purpose and not arming our adversary against us..Its not me even America's current president and Mr. Musharraf said that indeed aid was used in arming agaisnt india...So thats why a more stringent but embarrasing aid-policy...

I must say you have very valid points and great arguments...Its great talking to you...Lets c what you have to say about my counter-arguments

 

[Zaheerul Hassan]

India has moved her forces closer to border. Is she decided to hit Paksitan again?

 

[brahmastra]

India has moved her forces closer to border. Is she decided to hit Paksitan again?

nope, decided to kiss pakistan.

 

[riju78]

India has moved her forces closer to border. Is she decided to hit Paksitan again?

when was this?