Germany offers Stealth Submarine Technology along with BrahMos integration under 'Make in India'

[Stephen Cohen]

Germany offers Stealth Submarine Technology along with BrahMos integration under 'Make in India'

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Germany's Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems, which is pitching HDW-class 214 submarine for India’s P75 (I) project has offered to integrate any weapon system, including ‘Brahmos’ onto its submarines if it bags the deal.

Gurnad Sodhi, Managing Director of thyssenkrupp Marine Systems’ operations in India said that thyssenkrupp is ready to integrate any weapon system, including ‘Brahmos’ onto the latest 214 Class Submarines for the upcoming project P75 (I) project.


“We fully support the ‘Make and Made in India’ policy which would encompass inter-alia Transfer of Technology (ToT), training and meeting all offset obligations. We are awaiting the government’s decision on the Strategic Partner chapter of the new DPP 2016, after which we will begin our negotiations with an Indian shipyard for the P75(I),” he said.

Thyssenkrupp signed 35 million euros contract with the Indian MoD for the upgrade of Indian Navy’s two Shishumar Class submarines to fire Harpoon Anti-Submarine Counter measure missiles Thursday.

“We have the capacity to integrate any weapon system that is selected by the Indian Navy, onto our (Indian) submarines. We are happy to take on this project to now integrate the harpoon missiles in two of the four SSK submarines,” Sodhi said.

Other than Germany’s Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), Russian Rosoboronexport and French DCNS submarine companies are also competing for the P75i project. Spain’s Navantia S-80 class and Sweden’s SAAB Kockums’ with its A26 submarines have also shown interest in the P-75I.


http://www.defencenews.in/article/G...-BrahMos-integration-under-Make-in-India-6381

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...Missile_Onto_214_Class_Submarine#.V3YG_fl97ct

 

[migflug]

Go for a 26 best in the world.w e can bring the whole production line just like their proposal for broken. Or else go for barracuda's. Commonality's with Scorpene as well as k 15 reactor tech from french
Should not go for type 216 unless they offer us their 212 tech

 

[PARIKRAMA]

There is no need for P75I..

We should just get SSNs and order 3-6 more scorpene plus order 2-3 new project 636..

Brahmos itself will soon be enabled to launch via 533mm torpedo tube just like Nirbhay

Thus I feel P75I will lead to waste of time and investments now..

We should focus on SSN and SSBN projects more.. as that is important from CBG as well as from IOR perspective

 

[Stephen Cohen]

There is no need for P75I..

We should just get SSNs and order 3-6 more scorpene plus order 2-3 new project 636..

Brahmos itself with soon be enabled to launch via 533mm torpedo tube just like Nirbhay

Thus I feel P75I will lead to waste of time and investments now..

We should focus on SSN and SSBN projects more.. as that is important from CBG as well as from IOR perspective

SSN/ SSBN take a long time to be completed

We will need More Conventional submarines ; our KILOs and HDWs are getting Old

 

[chanikya]

Hmm.. its a very gud offer, as there is no comparison to build quality the Germans has to offer..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

SSN/ SSBN take a long time to be completed

We will need More Conventional submarines ; our KILOs and HDWs are getting Old

Agreed my friend, but tender is still not out.. suppose tender is out by 2017, the final selection will be done max by 2020/21 types.

On that selected sub facility and TOT to Pvt shipyard will take time for transfer and1st sub will be on sea trials by 2026/27 and inducted to IN by 2028+..

That's why use the existing lines of scorpenes beyond 2020 , keep churning more from them. Use project 636 kilo line and buy2-3 more directly from Russia.

By 2028 instead of 1 P75I sub we can get easily 6 more scorpenes and 2-3 kilo of project 636...

Thus I am saying it makes more sense like that.. and use time and resources for SSN and SSBN projects

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

We should focus on SSN and SSBN projects more.. as that is important from CBG as well as from IOR perspective

I am curious to know the benefits of SSN over conventional AIP subs, besides the range of course

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Agreed my friend, but tender is still not out.. suppose tender is out by 2017, the final selection will be done max by 2020/21 types.

On that selected sub facility and TOT to Pvt shipyard will take time for transfer and1st sub will be on sea trials by 2026/27 and inducted to IN by 2028+..

That's why use the existing lines of scorpenes beyond 2020 , keep churning more from them. Use project 636 kilo line and buy2-3 more directly from Russia.

By 2028 instead of 1 P75I sub we can get easily 6 more scorpenes and 2-3 kilo of project 636...

Thus I am saying it makes more sense like that.. and use time and resources for SSN and SSBN projects

We should at least evaluate the German 214 against the Scorpene and the Russian latest Submarine --Amur

SSN / SSBN will be counted separately

They are not for patrolling anyway They are only meant to carry nukes

Indian Ocean will see a Lot of Chinese ships and submarines

Also remember Pakistan is getting Eight More Chinese Submarines

 

[Omega007]

Brahmos itself will soon be enabled to launch via 533mm torpedo tube just like Nirbhay

How come??Cause the last time I checked, the current version of Brahmos has a diameter of 650 mm or so, so are we gonna fit them inside 550 mm diameter torp tubes??Or are you talking about the smaller NG version??But that at the very least, is half a decade away if everything goes as planned!!

 

[-xXx-]

Agreed my friend, but tender is still not out.. suppose tender is out by 2017, the final selection will be done max by 2020/21 types.

On that selected sub facility and TOT to Pvt shipyard will take time for transfer and1st sub will be on sea trials by 2026/27 and inducted to IN by 2028+..

That's why use the existing lines of scorpenes beyond 2020 , keep churning more from them. Use project 636 kilo line and buy2-3 more directly from Russia.

By 2028 instead of 1 P75I sub we can get easily 6 more scorpenes and 2-3 kilo of project 636...

Thus I am saying it makes more sense like that.. and use time and resources for SSN and SSBN projects

@PARIKRAMA

P75 I make sense if we are not looking at capping the submarine number to 6.

You have two options now-

1- Scrap P75 I and order additional 3-6 scorpene with more features like AIP.
2- Continue with P75 I, cap scorpene at 8, with 2 more with indigenous AIP. Now when required, order more P75 I.

Option 1 will lead you with modest capable scorpene.

Option 2 will give you advance option along with scaling up the numbers and that too with better subs.

Not to forget, option 2 will give us enough time and breathing space to continue work on SSBN and SSN subs. We have huge coastline and diesel sub with AIP are required in numbers. Our nuke subs will be comparatively nosier and we may need quieter sub in defensive role close to our coast line.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

How come??Cause the last time I checked, the current version of Brahmos has a diameter of 650 mm or so, so are we gonna fit them inside 550 mm diameter torp tubes??Or are you talking about the smaller NG version??But that at the very least, is half a decade away if everything goes as planned!!

Yes you are correct.. The NG version which will be a lot sleeker with smaller diameter.. and yes thats almost 4-5+ years away...

Judging from the present scoepenes the last one is expected to go to sea trial by 2020.. add another 1 year as a slack so navy induction should be in 2022-23.. So by that time this NG should be ready for operational deployment.. Thats what i am saying..

of course a big IF is the fact that all are on schedule or slack period also is small instead of inordinate delays..

@PARIKRAMA

P75 I make sense if we are not looking at capping the submarine number to 6.

You have two options now-

1- Scrap P75 I and order additional 3-6 scorpene with more features like AIP.
2- Continue with P75 I, cap scorpene at 8, with 2 more with indigenous AIP. Now when required, order more P75 I.

Option 1 will lead you with modest capable scorpene.

Option 2 will give you advance option along with scaling up the numbers and that too with better subs.

Not to forget, option 2 will give us enough time and breathing space to continue work on SSBN and SSN subs. We have huge coastline and diesel sub with AIP are required in numbers. Our nuke subs will be comparatively nosier and we may need quieter sub in defensive role close to our coast line.

You are right on money.. No doubt my good sir.. But my point was operationally for Point 2 the subs would be available by 2028+ timeline.. Its 12+ years from today.. Its so long that either HDW subs and other older Kilos will be deployed at best very close to shores due to operational limitation..if we want to build a credible diesel subs in number we require a much bigger number within 2030 timeline..

Anyways i hope the best decision is taken by DM MP and the PM + government.

I support either way.. whatever comes on time..

 

[Blue Marlin]

We should at least evaluate the German 214 against the Scorpene and the Russian latest Submarine --Amur

SSN / SSBN will be counted separately

They are not for patrolling anyway They are only meant to carry nukes

Indian Ocean will see a Lot of Chinese ships and submarines

Also remember Pakistan is getting Eight More Chinese Submarines

personally i dont like the entire idea of a p75l just buy more scorpenes and also redesign the scorpene to hold the brahmos and also if need be enlargen it. to many types of subs will ruin the navy. the scorpene should be the backbone of the conventional sub force even if it is modified/enlargened

 

[Mustang06]

It makes no sense have same two types of submarines keeping in mind the logistics and maintenance involved for supporting them. But then again we have at present have two types of conventional subs right now with scorpene's undergoing trials. I wonder how Brahmos will be launched from 214's either by vertical launcher or by torpedo tubes? If by vertical launcher can we have some other missile from the same launcher? Like some universal launcher! Also can someone tell me the status on the leasing second Akula class we were discussing with the Russian's?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

A submarine with range comparable to that of Kilo, armaments capable at least that of Kilo means firing long range land attack cruise missiles , depth and performance at least that of a Kilo... is a need of Indian Navy. And current Scorpene by no way satisfied that , nor does the Type214. Soryu , S1000 and S80 can be counted out as the first two haven't been offered while S80, the less said the better.

What are the options ? It could be a submarine similar to that of Australian future fleet + VLS, or Enlarged Type 214 with VLS for more range and endurance or in simple words Type 216 concept , A26 , or an improved LADA with VLS and AIP.

 

[SR-91]

There is no need for P75I..

We should just get SSNs and order 3-6 more scorpene plus order 2-3 new project 636..

Brahmos itself will soon be enabled to launch via 533mm torpedo tube just like Nirbhay

Thus I feel P75I will lead to waste of time and investments now..

We should focus on SSN and SSBN projects more.. as that is important from CBG as well as from IOR perspective

With additional orders of 3+3 scorpenes, we should get enough TOT, this should make P75i less important. We need to focus on mini-subs, make couple of dozens and deploy them in Bay of Bengal, Western Indian Ocean, Andaman and Nicobar islands, Maldives islands and Arabian sea. This will have an enormous positive effect on our underwater capabilities.

Along with this, we will be inducting remaining 2 kamorta class anti-submarine corvettes in 2017. These two ship will be far more deadlier than the previous ships. INS Kiltan and kavaratti will have composite superstructure with the help of Sweden instead of DMR 249A steel. It will be first time India will build ships with Composite material and will make them very Stealthy.

With Chinese subs entering IOR more frequently and Pakistan also planning to induct more subs, India will need many more than 2 of kamorta class ships. I like to see India atleast double the size of its corvettes.

IMO, Indian Navy should build up on its defensive side before going on offensive and with mini-subs and extra corvettes it can be very well positioned.