German rail giant mulls buying trains from China: report

[hans]

Yes, common commercial relationship.
If parts are good and price is reasonable, why not.
Rely on single source will be big trouble...

I once worked for siemens as trainee. I know the company in and out. as for china, surely siemens feels a bit more pressure, but she does not fall in panic at all. there is no or little reason for.

first, siemens still has a lead in railway technology. leadership in technology has a price. Mercedes car is more expensive than Volkswagen car. everybody accepts it.

second, the deutsche bahn not only buys parts from siemens, but other competitors on the market as Bombardier (Canada) and Alstom (france). so why not from china in the future if quality and price are ok?

third, deutsche bahn is highly indebted (16 billion Euro). she is desperate in seeking other cheaper providers.

last, deutsche bahn uses china as a threat at the next round of price negotiation with siemens.

 

[tranquilium]

I once worked for siemens as trainee. I know the company in and out. as for china, surely siemens feels a bit more pressure, but she does not fall in panic at all. there is no or little reason for.

first, siemens still has a lead in railway technology. leadership in technology has a price. Mercedes car is more expensive than Volkswagen car. everybody accepts it.

second, the deutsche bahn not only buys parts from siemens, but other competitors on the market as Bombardier (Canada) and Alstom (france). so why not from china in the future if quality and price are ok?

third, deutsche bahn is highly indebted (16 billion Euro). she is desperate in seeking other cheaper providers.

last, deutsche bahn uses china as a threat at the next round of price negotiation with siemens.

My entire family work for Siemens. My parents are both consultant engineers. Myself is also about to enter their employment once I finish my Ph.D. I am well aware how Siemens is doing. As far as company goes, Siemens is definitely a good performing one, but just like any company, there is only so much self-improvement you can do. If the market is bad, you are inevitably affected and unfortunately this is the condition we are facing after the 2008 disaster. My comment is more on the how market has shifted rather than any doubt on Siemens.

Also, the perception of brand allowing you to set a higher price is a dangerous one because at the end of the day, an ordinary person street shopping may go for brand products because the little price difference doesn't matter. A company's job is negotiate a contract that is sufficient for their need and as cheap as possible, especially for indebt companies. This is why tech leader doesn't automatically equal to more expensive.

It cannot be updated, u cannot make the distance between two tracks larger. But CIT500 can operate at any speed below 500kph. Just like CRH380 also operates on 200kph lines. They share the same signal system. By upgrading old line, including upgrading signal system, replacing old tracks by seamless tracks, replacing railway crossings by flyovers/tunnels, then we can also enjoy 250kph-300 kph on old lines.

Huh, you learn something new everyday. Do they really need change the track width? Because technology permits, the track width is one of the less desirable things to change.

 

[AndrewJin]

My entire family work for Siemens. My parents are both consultant engineers. Myself is also about to enter their employment once I finish my Ph.D. I am well aware how Siemens is doing. As far as company goes, Siemens is definitely a good performing one, but just like any company, there is only so much self-improvement you can do. If the market is bad, you are inevitably affected and unfortunately this is the condition we are facing after the 2008 disaster. My comment is more on the how market has shifted rather than any doubt on Siemens.

Also, the perception of brand allowing you to set a higher price is a dangerous one because at the end of the day, an ordinary person street shopping may go for brand products because the little price difference doesn't matter. A company's job is negotiate a contract that is sufficient for their need and as cheap as possible, especially for indebt companies. This is why tech leader doesn't automatically equal to more expensive.



Huh, you learn something new everyday. Do they really need change the track width? Because technology permits, the track width is one of the less desirable things to change.

It's not the track width, it's the distance between two adjacent tracks. When speed is too fast, large space is needed between two opposite trains. And also, the turning radius of a railway limits the maximum speed, that's why tunnels and bridges are needed in mountainous regions, in a bid to maintain a bigger turning radius.

 

[tranquilium]

It's not the track width, it's the distance between two adjacent tracks. When speed is too fast, large space is needed between two opposite trains. And also, the turning radius of a railway limits the maximum speed, that's why tunnels and bridges are needed in mountainous regions, in a bid to maintain a bigger turning radius.

To be honest, I would imagine that distance to be pretty big to start with, big enough to accommodate 500kph because allocate more space between two tracks is a rather easy task in comparison to the construct of the tracks itself.

 

[Shotgunner51]

@AndrewJin @tranquilium

I once met the Deputy GM of Rail in Beijing, according to him a quick summary of speeds are:

• Whole system, rail, rolling stocks, are designed & commissioned on 380 kph, i.e. project CRH380.
• The highest tested speed of CRH380A is 486.1 kph
• In commercial operation, from commencement at 2008 was 350kph, from 2011 till now is 300kph, and planning to resume 350kph however timing unknown.

I am not sure whether I remembered these correctly, you may verify?

 

[Viet]

My entire family work for Siemens. My parents are both consultant engineers. Myself is also about to enter their employment once I finish my Ph.D. I am well aware how Siemens is doing. As far as company goes, Siemens is definitely a good performing one, but just like any company, there is only so much self-improvement you can do. If the market is bad, you are inevitably affected and unfortunately this is the condition we are facing after the 2008 disaster. My comment is more on the how market has shifted rather than any doubt on Siemens.

Also, the perception of brand allowing you to set a higher price is a dangerous one because at the end of the day, an ordinary person street shopping may go for brand products because the little price difference doesn't matter. A company's job is negotiate a contract that is sufficient for their need and as cheap as possible, especially for indebt companies. This is why tech leader doesn't automatically equal to more expensive.



Huh, you learn something new everyday. Do they really need change the track width? Because technology permits, the track width is one of the less desirable things to change.

no, I´m afraid siemens is not doing well at the moment. she is downsizing, laying off employees in many sectors including energy generation. the best time of siemens is long over. General Electrics is doing a better job.

 

[cnleio]

German rail giant mulls buying trains from China: report

Germany's national railway operator, Deutsche Bahn, said Tuesday that it was considering buying trains and spare parts from China in the future.

"In three to five years from now, Asia and China in particular can assume a key role in supplying Deutsche Bahn with trains and spare parts," board member Heike Hanagarth told German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung on Tuesday.

According to Hanagarth, Deutsche Bahn's objective is to cooperate with Chinese train makers CSR and CNR, and the company plans to open a purchasing office in Beijing as early as this coming fall.

As a first step, Deutsche Bahn would reportedly start to buy part of its annually required 35,000 wheel sets in China from 2017.

LOL ... Made in China awesome ! Come on keep trolling China ... What a wonderful day !

My entire family work for Siemens. My parents are both consultant engineers. Myself is also about to enter their employment once I finish my Ph.D. I am well aware how Siemens is doing. As far as company goes, Siemens is definitely a good performing one, but just like any company, there is only so much self-improvement you can do. If the market is bad, you are inevitably affected and unfortunately this is the condition we are facing after the 2008 disaster. My comment is more on the how market has shifted rather than any doubt on Siemens.

Also, the perception of brand allowing you to set a higher price is a dangerous one because at the end of the day, an ordinary person street shopping may go for brand products because the little price difference doesn't matter. A company's job is negotiate a contract that is sufficient for their need and as cheap as possible, especially for indebt companies. This is why tech leader doesn't automatically equal to more expensive.

Thank you very much, good to read.

 

[TaiShang]

LOL ... Made in China awesome ! Come on keep trolling China ... What a wonderful day !


Thank you very much, good to read.

Trolling... LOL.

Yes, keep it up.

 

[tranquilium]

no, I´m afraid siemens is not doing well at the moment. she is downsizing, laying off employees in many sectors including energy generation. the best time of siemens is long over. General Electrics is doing a better job.

Like I said, no matter how much self-improvement you do, ultimately a company is dependent on market. When the market is not good well, the company suffers. That's just how it is. It is still perform well comparing the others. I have no comment on GE since I don't know much about their performance.

 

[AndrewJin]

@AndrewJin @tranquilium

I once met the Deputy GM of Rail in Beijing, according to him a quick summary of speeds are:

• Whole system, rail, rolling stocks, are designed & commissioned on 380 kph, i.e. project CRH380.
• The highest tested speed of CRH380A is 486.1 kph
• In commercial operation, from commencement at 2008 was 350kph, from 2011 till now is 300kph, and planning to resume 350kph however timing unknown.

I am not sure whether I remembered these correctly, you may verify?

You are right. Technicians and politicians have been working on speeding back to 350kph ever since 2011. But there is a strong opposition force from inside, mainly from air industry.
If, the speed of Shanghai-Beijing rises from 300kph to 350-380kph, then the total duration will be cut from average 5 hours to 4 hours. Then competition between HSR and airplanes is not just below 1000km, but below 1500km. That'll be a disaster for air industry. Wuhan-Guangzhou airplanes are already dying out, if the most important Beijing-Shanghai and Shanghai-Guangzhou are dying out, they really have to go bankrupt.

 

[esolve]

Sieren’s China: A slap in the face for Siemens | World | DW.DE | 28.05.2015

Chinese trains have become so good that Germany's Deutsche Bahn wants to buy them. According to DW columnist Frank Sieren, the railway can no longer afford to give preferential treatment to German companies.

It’s happened a lot sooner than I’d thought. The Deutsche Bahn, Germany's national railway, can no longer afford to buy German or western trains only. It’s opening a purchasing office in China. DB board member Head Heike Hanagarth already says that in three to five years' time China could have a "key position" when it comes to trains and railway technology.
Initially it will be regional trains and locomotives that Deutsche Bahn will purchase in China. But not yet high speed trains. But once DB has established successful business relations with the Chinese, and if price and quality are right, purchasing high-tech ICE trains is sure to be the next step. China’s two state-owned train companies, China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation Limited (CSR) and China North Locomotive & Rolling Stock Industry Corporation (CNR), could join Siemens as major suppliers to Deutsche Bahn.
TMT, the Chinese provider of railway technology, will now be qualified by the German railway to deliver replacement parts, train wheels, for instance. Many at the Deutsche Bahn were surprised at the media excitement over the new cooperation with China. They point out that for many years slower regional trains and locomotives have been bought from French and Canadian companies, for example. So why not also buy from the Chinese?
However, there is a fundamental difference: while Canada's Bombadier and its competitor French Alstom have reached their zenith, China has turned into a new challenger with a huge home market. Just last year Beijing signed contracts for train projects to the tune of $24.7 billion (22.6 billion euros) outside China. And a few days ago, China Premier Li Keqiang returned from South America with signed contracts amounting to $10 billion to build a train line that will run across South America - from Brazil on the Atlantic, across the Andes, to Peru on the Pacific.

Increasing competition
More than ever Siemens can feel its competitors breathing down its neck, even though it currently also delivers technology to Chinese companies. That China is in the process of restructuring its train industry is even more cause of concern. CSR and CNR will merge to become the world leader in train construction. Deutsche Bahn rightly predicts that the Chinese industry alone could meet half of the global demand.
In concrete terms this will mean that China will no longer confine itself to African, South American or other emerging markets, but will also sell trains or build tracks in the highly industrialized nations of the West. China will deliver high speed trains to England and also build the rail network for them to operate on.
The Chinese hold a great advantage: a nation with a large domestic market can offer especially good prices to the rest of the world. And the government supports the endeavor, seeing it as such contracts also boost international prestige - as long as they are no longer limited to emerging countries.
The German government, however, has different priorities: It wants to limit the German railway’s annual deficit as much as possible, because the situation is becoming more difficult. Last year Deutsche Bahn's profits fell by 30 percent, as more and more customers switched to long-distance busses. Waves of train drivers' strikes also do their bit to scare off even the most loyal train users. In turn, the Deutsche Bahn sinks ever deeper into debt.
No home advantage

Those facts and the high mountain of debt, over 16 billion euros, are forcing state-owned Deutsche Bahn to look for reliable partners and opportunities to cut costs sooner rather than later. It’s a political slap in the face for Siemens. At Siemens one can no longer assume that when in doubt German companies will be favored by Deutsche Bahn. Siemens has only one option: its must offer better quality than the Chinese competitors - but at the same price. And that will be extremely difficult. It is very likely that in 2017, when the new fast ICE generation x trains are delivered, this will be the last time Siemens has the lucrative German market all to itself.

 

[Kyle Sun]

not really.
Be humble before our teacher.
although we hold 100% IP of CRH train,we only have about 15～20% key patents of the train,like tech of track/high and cold , not just tech of the train but also the construction tech.

The other 85% patents are general tech which in common use.