Dude i have kept lot of calm in replying to you...but you are getting into personal attacks mode...Chill...we are discussing...i am not running away from anything and neither smoking anything....b/w as said last time quote me and then reply...this makes it easy to counter argue...
Please prove and provide links that Indian leadership were not happy with the creation of Pakistan we may be sad.... we were not threat to them at all...
Man...for haven sake think from a Pakistani perspective...Have chinese leaders made a provocative speech that they will attack India??? Do you have fears that China might attack one day...is the fear/concern legitimate???
and their legitimate fears got vanished in 1965...they had till 1958.....what a holy crap !! did we indulged with Pakistan on a full scale war during 1948 ?
Calm down...As said earlier they did not attacked India in 48...Now why we did not attack them because we were in no position to...Had we been we would not have allowed partition in the first place...However this status quo was not going to remain permanent and this is the legitimate fear i am talking about...
NO...first coup in Pakistan because of India …
what are you smoking dude !!
Now you are getting a little annoying...You are putting words in my mouth...When did i say coup happened because of India??? All i am saying is they had legitimate fears abd bcoz of political vacuum Army gained strength...Rest is history...
And you perfectly dodged the argument that there was political vacuum in Pakistan when Pakistan was doing better than India. so there was no political vacuum in Pakistan. How do you make out of it. I think Pakistani members can answer to better about their leaders. Infact Pakistani general didn't have this fcuking business to interfere in political matters.
Dodged the argument??? I asked you even specific question - give me an influnetial leader b/w 48-57 after Zinnah died....Political vacuum doesn't mean there was no government, no structure to grow etc etc...Political vacuum means that there was no influential leader who could have stopped the Army from gaining power/controlling the foreign policy etc....Can't you see that Pakistani people supported coup by Army(58 by ayub)...Were all of them greedy and power hungry??? Where was the alternative???
and coming to your question which was answered perfectly before also
...
No you have not...This is the question...
Tell me one thing...Before Partition our Army was one unit...Their training/culture etc all were same...Now how come suddenly people with same ranks behaved so differently??? Is it something to do with genese/race/religion???? Of-course not...then what the heck went wrong???
let me reply it again
the ambitions and intentions of PA and IA were different. which has lot to do with the leadership in IA and PA. They were power hungry and forced by greed. please read the history of Pakistan regarding coups. We had a secular structure in our ranks people from all background were in our army from north to south. We followed the principle of non alignment they chose to become subservient to US. if we have the same culture or background it won't make our judgment same. this is ridiculous theory.
My god...
Power hungry and forced by greed....I think we are talking about different time frames...I am talking about what made PA more powerful and you are talking about post effects...Once i have powers i will not like to let them go...So you are right there...However i am not challenging that portion at all...What i am saying is they were not power hungry by birth(after partition)...There were circumstances which resulted in them getting more powers then their counterparts and rest is history...Jinnah death did play a crucial role and so does this legitimate fears of theirs that India will attack....
I'm consistent with the time fame we are talking ...what you think for how long after independence they had the existential threat from india ?
This is subjective and cannot be answered like that...Let me ask you a question in return...How long do you think we should have a legitimate concern that China will attack one day??? Listen their fear was legitimate but they dragged it too long and it brought lot of bad to their country...However specifically saying that their fear was legitimate from this year to that year is not possible...One thing i can tell you for sure is that this fear should have decreased over the years but due to vested interests was never let go...
Again all i am trying to justify is that why PA got more powers then IA in the initial run...In similar circumstances IA
might have behaved the same way....I am not at all challenging/defending Coups/Unprefessional/Vested interests/Greed/power hungry syndrome...
China are building infra at our border they are providing weapons to Pakistan, they had blocked indian resolution against LeT and Hafeez saeed in UN ? they are getting assertive day by day. This is what I called legitimate threat. when india did the same against Pakistan in given time frame ? when our leaders openly called Jihad against Pakistan ? please provide the links to justify the legitimacy of threats that you are talking about. I know you won't as you don't have any.
Now you are loosing sanity...Kindly not...Here are my counter points
- We divided their country into two..
- Even now majority of our forces are stationed in the western sector
- Majority of our high profile assets are against pakistan
- Majority of our missiles are Pakistan specific
- Even our BMD in its current context is Pakistan specific
Now do you really need me to provide links for this...Please understand i am not saying we were a threat to them...What i am saying is that
their fear even though was unwarranted yet was legitimate...How do they know that we will not attack them...As far as China is concerned then is this not a fact that our borders are very peaceful...is it not a fact that we have trade worth billions..Is it not a fact that there are many international issues where we back each other...Then why are we fearing them? Is it just because they are helping Pakistan(which is their all weather friend)..or blocking sanctions on militants?? It is hard for us to understand that they are doing this to keep us pinned..but does that mean they will attack???? The reason is simple -
In military terms one must prepare for the worst...This is the legitmacy of all the things we are doing in our eastern sector...Not sure why you don't want to give the same legitimacy to our conterparts...
Dude ...what is your subjective opinion on the coup..please reply I don't want a yes no asnwer.
How many times do i have to clarify on this???...I have said in plain english that i do not support coup...How many times do i need to say that whole purpose of my freaking discussion is to highlight the reasons PA power increased which
LEADS to all this that you are highlighting...
RAW is notorious
are you serious. ok ...let suppose they are notorious...
they are not??? And then you charge me by saying i don't have much knowledge...My dear friend LTTE was our creation...It was because of Moraji Desai that RAW did not reached where ideally it should have but that doens't mean RAW is not notorious...In fact i will be very disapponited if there is an iota of truth in what you are saying...Intelligence agencies are supposed to be notorious...
but are they rogue ? any of this agency are rogue ?Are they work outside the mandate provided by the Government ? Do you know ISI has a political wing to look after their politicians...but as per constitution thy are under PM. Please do some study about mehrangate case. I good video I had posted ...do watch.
I challenge you to show me any part of my post which makes you believe i am rejecting any of this??? Once again we are talking different timelines...Are you saying ISI was rogue since its inception??? Am i denying that ISI was later on used by PA for notorious activities??? Once again what is wrong with you..Do you even understand what am i discussing???
^^^ provide the link of this rubbish...infact we never intended to do that . aaahh ..I'm waiting you to post the
link which says that IA wanted to completely destroy west Pakistan. Please do so.
I tell you how niazi cam into discussion...as u said that IA wanted to completely destroyed Pakistan...but IA only wanted their Surrender..that is why they kept on writing to NIAZI.
when I asked for links to support your preposterous arguments you run away
You certainly have lost it....I said "
HAD IA ENJOYED SAME POWERS AS PA THEY WOULD HAVE GONE AHEAD WITH DISTRUCTION OF PA"....IA strictly followed the mandate given to them..kudos to them and i am proud of this fact...However had they been as poweful as PA then why would they have followed IG in letter and spirit???
You are not a kid that you don't know that there cannot be official confirmation of such ideas...All this information is gathered by reading war diaries/articles of x-combatants...I am in no mood to search those documentaries for you and then share it with you...It is upto you to accept/reject it...However if you just use a little logic it is not surprising for IA to push for complete distruction of PA...After all PA was weakest at that moment and was our Arch rival, no??? They did not got a go and that plan was dropped..simple....Similarly during Kargil was crossing LOC was an easy option...IA wanted to use it but did not got a go...so once again they fought with in the mandate given...What is so surprising in both the incidents that it is very hard for you to believe???
My whole point is when an Army sticks its head in diplomacy it is bound to be doomed...This is what happened with PA...We are lucky it did not happened with IA...once a precedent is set it is bound to be followed because no one likes to loose his/her powers......Fortunately for us precedent was set to remain subservient to political class and unfortunately for Pak it went the other way. Now no matter what, atleast Pakistan foreign policy will remain in Army hands for a considerable time....Once with passage of time where political class will gain strength they will start chipping off those powers....
