Gen Zia - Man behind Defeat of USSR in Afghanistan

[clmeta]

Absolutely true, the real game ruler was america....thtz no hidden truth they pumped money and weapons to taliban....

Its amazing how America manages to control nations through proxies. And some of those proxies become symbols of patriotism. Zia is one of them. How can traitors like him be praised????

 

[Omar1984]

What an uninformed opinion, Pakistan economy took a nosedive soon after the death of Zia as foreign funding dried up and Pakistan got something called the Poverty Bomb whereby large numbers of our population become poor because of the effects of our economic policy under zia..

There was always poverty in Pakistan since 1947. Under General Zia we saw a GDP Growth rate of 8.71. We never saw anything like that after his death, until Musharraf came to power. You cant blame Zia's economy policy. Blame the corrupt BB and her corrupt husband who stole from Pakistan after they came to power.

Before 1981, Pakistani could proudly claim that no one in Pakistan slept hungry or without a shelter but Zia changed all that..

Are you serious? Even in a developed Superpower like USA there are plenty of people sleeping hungry and without shelter. Pakistan always had poor people since 1947.

Similarly, Zias Islamic laws stayed intact and were made more harsher by Sharif, so of wasn't 'secular' laws but the same laws Zia had which destroyed the economy.

Sharif has his mansions and villas all over the Arab world. He is another thief like BB and her husband. The reason why Pakistan's economy dropped after General Zia's death was because thieves like BB and Sharif became in power. General Zia had all his property in Pakistan. General Zia was not corrupt like Nawaz Shariff, BB and her husband were. Throughout Pakistan's history, Pakistan was most financially stable under military rule and near bankrupt under democracy. Even if its with foreign help, where are all of foreign money going today under Zardari's rule because its not going into Pakistan's economy.

 

[Ignited Mind]

There was always poverty in Pakistan since 1947. Under General Zia we saw a GDP Growth rate of 8.71. We never saw anything like that after his death, until Musharraf came to power. You cant blame Zia's economy policy. Blame the corrupt BB and her corrupt husband who stole from Pakistan after they came to power.

Ever wondered why you see such nice and fancy growth rates only under military dictatorships which are accused to be working for the US?

 

[Omar1984]

Ever wondered why you see such nice and fancy growth rates only under military dictatorships which are accused to be working for the US?

U.S. also claims its giving Pakistan billions of dollars today. Why is Pakistan near bankrupt today under PPP's Zardari's democracy then? Where are all the money going? Back into Zardari's Swiss account I'm sure.

Atleast the Generals who ruled Pakistan in the past, put the money in Pakistan's economy and development.

 

[Ignited Mind]

Atleast the Generals who ruled Pakistan in the past, put the money in Pakistan's economy and development.

Growth on steroids, I'd say.

Taking money and fighting for someone else, you do know what such armies and countries are called in English, don't you?

 

[clmeta]

U.S. also claims its giving Pakistan billions of dollars today. Why is Pakistan near bankrupt today under PPP's Zardari's democracy then? Where are all the money going? Back into Zardari's Swiss account I'm sure.

Atleast the Generals who ruled Pakistan in the past, put the money in Pakistan's economy and development.

You seem to have high regards for dictators and puppets

 

[Omar1984]

You seem to have high regards for dictators and puppets

I have high regards for patriots and those who fight for Pakistan's interests and those who try their best to achieve Pakistan's full potentials.

Of course, you would not like that because you're indian.

 

[clmeta]

I have high regards for patriots and those who fight for Pakistan's interests and those who try their best to achieve Pakistan's full potentials.

Of course, you would not like that because you're indian.

Yes and by God's grace we have seen only 2 years of dictatorship since independence.

 

[T-Faz]

I dont have any good knowledge on the Afghan war. So i would like to ask 2 questions.

1. The Afghan war has brought US into the region and they never left, right or wrong?

The never left, are we speaking after the end of time itself or is this in the present scenario.

Currently they are in Afghanistan but they will not and cannot stay here forever. The end game is near and the USG itself is party to dialog with the Taliban now. Clinton stated this very recently and Turkey is willing to open offices for the Taliban in their own nation for the sake of an end to this war.

The long term plan is to end this war and make a situation whereby Pakistan follows in the footsteps of Turkey releasing itself from the clutches of the Arabs.

2. If USSR wasn't made to retreat , there would have been a communist government in Afghanistan minding their own business and there would nt have been any trouble like the ones Pakistan facing right now, right or wrong?

The communist government was present even before the arrival of the Soviets, it was known as the PDPA which initiated a 10 year modernization plan. They met with stiff resistance from the Islamists and they invited the Soviets into their nation to help them deal with the insurgency.

Even then, the dialog between the regional and global powers was initiated to keep the PDPA intact but the US did not want that and thus the government was still met with resistance. The US and Pakistan continued to support the insurgents long after the departure of the Soviets.

Najibullah, the last head of PDPA was hanged on lamppost in Kabul in 1996 by the Taliban, his balls were stuffed in his mouth and rumor has it that the spectators included foreign agencies.

 

[T-Faz]

Means nothing. There is always a first time. Actually a second time - Chingis Khan had pretty much massacred the whole lot the first time. History can never be selectively read, if you do that, all you see is what you want to see.

There is always a chance of getting things right but it has always been the case that the occupiers got their planning wrong, refer to my reply to Spark to see what I am talking about in relation to the current scenario. Also I have written many empires, not all.

As for the headquarters, we will have to wait & see, will we not?

Too late, the end game is near, if it were to happen, it would have happened some time ago.

 

[T-Faz]

BLA became active in 2000. General Zia died in 1988. I dont know much about killings of Shias and Ahmadis but from what I heard that became common in the 1990's. 1980's during General Zia's rule was a safer era than the 1990's and the past/current decade.

Baloch rebels were very active since Bhutto's time, there was fierce fighting between the army and the Baloch in the 80's but the state controlled media meant that not much was heard of.

A Province with Problems​

Baluchistan has angry nomads who cross a "silent border"

The Pakistani province of Baluchistan, roughly the size of Montana or Finland, has long been considered a target of opportunity for the Soviet Union. Nestled next to Iran and Afghanistan, both of which have large Baluchi populations, the province has a 471-mile-long coast on the Arabian Sea. Gwadar, its principal port, sits at the entrance to the Persian Gulf and the oil lanes to the West. Moscow's intervention in Afghanistan has renewed fears of Soviet subversion in the province, where disaffected separatists have long been agitating for regional autonomy. TIME New Delhi Bureau Chief Marcia Ganger last week visited Baluchistan. Her report:

One sign of spring in Baluchistan's provincial capital of Quetta, as sure as the white blossoms bursting in the groves of almond trees, is the procession of caravans making its way up from the south. Through the 60-mile Bolan Pass in the Brahui mountains they come, nomadic families with their camels, sheep, donkeys, the beasts of burden laden with all their possessions. They march by day and camp at sundown while the animals graze on the stony, barren soil. Many will settle around Quetta for the summer: raising sheep, taking day jobs weeding the cultivated fields in the area.

The nomadic Brahuis are among 60 tribes in Baluchistan. The Baluchi tribes constitute about half of the province's 2.5 million people. Roughly 40% of the rest are Pathans; the remainder are "settlers," as residents from Pakistan's other provinces are called. For more than a century, the policy of ruling governments has been to divide and disperse the tribespeople. In the late 19th century, when London ruled all of the area that is today India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the British pursued what was described as a "forward policy" in order to expand Britain's frontiers and sphere of influence against tsarist Russia's pressure from the north. The British drew the lines that still form the 1,900-mile border of Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

As a result, there are now 1 million Baluchis in Iran and 300,000 in Afghanistan, kin to the 1.25 million Baluchis in Pakistan. They are allowed to move back and forth across the border at will, with no passports, visas, checkpoints or customs to impede them. The Pakistan government has made no attempt to close what has come to be called the "silent border" with Afghanistan and Iran. To do so would invite an insurrection as bloody as the one that engulfed Baluchistan between 1973 and 1977, when the late Prime Minister Zulfikar Ah" Bhutto sought to impose the central government's authority on the province. That conflict cost the lives of 3,300 Pakistani soldiers and at least 5,300 Baluchi guerrillas. When General Mohammed Zia ul-Haq overthrew Bhutto in 1977, he declared an amnesty and released political prisoners.

Those conciliatory gestures have not satisfied the tribal chiefs, who have virtually total control over their people, including their political affiliation. "Just because it is quiet does not mean all is well," says Akbar Khan Bugti, whose imposing tribal title is Nawab of the Bugti. "We have been beaten into being quiet for a time, but wait. There is no love lost between the Baluchis and their masters." The Baluchis feel that they have never had a fair deal and are still not getting one. Punjabis control 90% of Pakistan's bureaucracy and hold all key government posts in the province. The Baluchis also believe that they do not get a fair return for their economic resources. All of the province's natural gas is piped to Pakistan's major cities; Baluchistan nets $25.9 million annually in revenues from the sales, but then it has to repurchase its own gas from Karachi.

The province's problems have been compounded by a flow of refugees from Afghanistan. Some 90,000 are already settled in 30 camps. The leader of one such camp, Nazar Hussain, says that food and shelter are not enough. He insists that the international community "must realize its responsibility" and provide weapons to the rebels. Says Nazar: "If the [nations supporting the rebels] want anything done, they should hurry up. We are ready to sacrifice our lives for liberty." But others fear that the weapons would be sold to young Baluchi tribesmen who openly support the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They could become a kind of fifth column inside Pakistan.

Baluchi elders, strict Muslims who abhor atheistic Marxism, are opposed to American military aid for Pakistan, which they believe could be used by the central government against them. Says the Nawab of Bugti: "For us, Russia and America are equally bad. U.S. aid would go to bolster a very unpopular regime. The Zia government is the most unpopular regime since the beginning of Pakistan." Yahya Bakhtiar is a former Pakistani attorney general who was defense counsel at Bhutto's murder conspiracy trial. Bakhtiar, who is a native of Baluchistan, insists that to many Pakistanis the banishment of Soviet Dissident Andrei Sakharov does not seem as harsh as Zia's treatment of Bhutto's widow and daughter, who have been held in detention off and on for two years without being allowed to see anyone. "People are disappointed with the Western powers for supporting dictators," says Bakhtiar. "I used to be against the Communists, but I have nothing to say to people now. We see no hope."

PAKISTAN: A Province with Problems - TIME

MQM and JI were not affliated with General Zia-ul-Haq. The crisis in Karachi is much more dangerous today than it was in the 80's. I know Karachi always had violence. Even the mother of the nation, Fatima Jinnah, was stabbed in Karachi, but the violence today is so much that it cant be compared to the 1980's.

JI was affiliated with Zia, their then leader, Maulana Mohammed Tufail was Zia's uncle and their ideology permeated the armed forces. Ji was in his government and they were the ones who passed all their laws.

MQM was created by Zia to counter the Islamic parties once they started to protest against Zia later in his Presidency. Karachi was as dangerous back then too, we had a dozen or so criminal syndicates running around. Minorities being slaughtered and the refugees were committing all kinds of crimes with immunity.

Yes the Soviets were the enemy of Pakistan. And thanks to General Zia Ul Haq they dont exist anymore.

No, Pakistan ignored the Soviets when Liaqat Ali Khan went to the USA and did not visit the Soviets. Ayub Khan used to threaten Soviets all the time and we allowed the US to use Pakistan for their spy planes.

Even then the Soviets helped us in developing out industries like the Steel Mills and what not.

During the rule of General Zia-ul-Haq Pakistan was a much safer time and you cant blame a man dead for 20+ years for today's problems. All his friends, all the people who personally met him and talked to him, are all very very old today.

All the problems started from his time, otherwise Pakistan was a safe and peaceful place.

 

[T-Faz]

There was always poverty in Pakistan since 1947. Under General Zia we saw a GDP Growth rate of 8.71. We never saw anything like that after his death, until Musharraf came to power. You cant blame Zia's economy policy. Blame the corrupt BB and her corrupt husband who stole from Pakistan after they came to power.

There was always poverty because Pakistan was a poor country but it was a developing one and one that was always economically growing at an admirable rate. But as soon as Bhutto arrived, he halted the growth somewhat, it resumed with Zia because the economic system was very effective. But Gen Zia altered it so much that the once dynamic system resulted in a poverty bomb going off.

Gen Zia was also lucky to have the foreign aid flowing in which was halted through Pressler Amendments which sanctioned Pakistan for its Nuclear program under Benazir Bhutto. As soon as the foreign assistance was gone, the system collapsed causing great amount of damage to Pakistan.

Are you serious? Even in a developed Superpower like USA there are plenty of people sleeping hungry and without shelter. Pakistan always had poor people since 1947.

Figure of speech, that used to be the general outlook back then. Look at what Mohammed Hanif, a respected journalist wrote:

Pakistanis visiting India till the mid-eighties came back very smug. They told us about India's slums, and that there was nothing to buy except handicrafts and saris. Then Pakistanis could say with justifiable pride that nobody slept hungry in their country. But now, not only do people sleep hungry in both the countries, they also commit suicide because they see nothing but a lifetime of hunger ahead. A debt-ridden farmer contemplating suicide in Maharashtra and a mother who abandons her children in Karachi because she can't feed them: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson.

Ten myths about Pakistan - Page 3 - Times Of India

Sharif has his mansions and villas all over the Arab world. He is another thief like BB and her husband. The reason why Pakistan's economy dropped after General Zia's death was because thieves like BB and Sharif became in power. General Zia had all his property in Pakistan. General Zia was not corrupt like Nawaz Shariff, BB and her husband were. Throughout Pakistan's history, Pakistan was most financially stable under military rule and near bankrupt under democracy. Even if its with foreign help, where are all of foreign money going today under Zardari's rule because its not going into Pakistan's economy.

Nawaz Sharif was the finance minister during Zia's time, he amassed a lot of wealth but nothing compared to Zia and Rahman.

Zia made billions and this can be proven by how his son, once a taxi plyer in Chicago can buy votes in Pakistan to keep a seat in the senate.

Rahman also made billions, you should know how rich his children are and how many business ventures they have in Pakistan.

 

[Rig Vedic]

The Soviets were as interested in Pakistan as they were in Afghanistan. The Soviets wanted their empire to reach to the Arabian Sea that is the reason they invaded Afghanistan in the first place. The only way they could get their empire to reach the Arabian Sea was through Pakistan's Balochistan Province. That is why General Zia Ul Haq said in the video that if they attack Afghanistan then the day is not too far that they will attack Pakistan. And you know that indians would've worked with the Soviets to attack Pakistan. The Soviets would attack Pakistan from the western front, the indians from the eastern front and there goes our Pakistan.

Not true. Soviets had no desire to invade Afghanistan, let alone Pakistan. They would never had entered Afghanistan had it not been for provocations engineered by Brzezinski. Zia's Pakistan was obviously a willing player in this game.

CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

 

[BATMAN]

Its amazing how America manages to control nations through proxies. And some of those proxies become symbols of patriotism. Zia is one of them. How can traitors like him be praised????

I wonder how does traitors like Nehru are praised in india?
Didn't Nehru killed Gandi

 

[BATMAN]

so you want to say that Muslim adopt that technique from Tamil Hindus and take it to new level include Children and Women in this ????????

The one who killed Rajiv Gandi was a Tamil hindu girl child, so stop trolling.