Gallipoli War: Great Victory Of Islam ( ) ÇANAKKALE zaferi

[Cerian]

ww1 was a sad end for the 2nd greatest islamic empire after the rashidun

Late 19th century and early 20th century was disastrous for us. Millions had to be relocated to heartland Anatolia from Balkans, not just because they were Turks, but they were Muslims. Most of them spoke Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Bosnian and didn't know any Turkish when they were forced to move heartland Anatolia. Tragedy of this era made a lasting effect on minds of Turkish people which is in basic form "A Turk doesn't have any friends except itself".

 

[Quasar]

@Zulkarneyn
with in a analytical framework and with coherent arguments every issue can be a subject of critical thinking! however, history is not an easy subject since the current structure of social reality and our present value system/hierarch of values in this system or simply our political or ideological inclinations can cause disturbances to any interpretation! I guess you may agree that history is a continuum! (not a very meaningful one tough) therefore utilizing a concept (and a methodological tool) "transitional phase" can be misleading!

1. mesrutiyet 2. mesrytiyet, tanzimat fermani, meclisi mebusan

and Turkish Republic is the end result of a long process!& an unfinished project!

concerning core beliefs! I afraid this implies a kind of non existing immaculate origine! again I hope you may agree that anything social including beliefs( it immediately becomes an interpretation) are not constant! however, there is a wide spreaded-hegemonic understanding of it which works as a common ground! ( among others)

but I agree that some professionals" (artists, writers, politicans etc) alienated themselves from their own society! but thanks god we have some European values/institutions which appeal to a universal audience like parliamentary democracy, elections and some sort of freedom of thought;so people can replace the politicians ! and I am free to hate some writers or artists like Orhan pamuk or fazil say like the rest of my society!

 

[forummurat]

Thanks Cabatli, i have a Turkish friend whose family and all relatives were kicked out of Bulgaria just for being Muslims and Turks. They weren't allowed to pray in Mosques, couldn't speak Turkish etc. Unfortunately many people forget the big sacrifices Turkish people have made for the cause of Islam. I can relate to him as the maternal side of my family had to escape from a village on the Punjab/Kashmir border that fell on the Indian side in 1947. Anyways let wiki enlighten us a bit:

"Massacres against Turks and Muslims during the Balkan Wars in the hands of Bulgarians, Greeks and Armenians are described in detail in the 1912 Carnegie Endowment report.[34] Hupchick estimates that nearly 1,5 million Muslims died and 400,000 became refugees as a result of the Balkan Wars.[35] The Bulgarian violence during the Balkan War included burning of villages, transforming mosques into churches, rape of women and mutilation of bodies. It is estimated that 220,000 Pomaks were forcefully Christianized and forbidden to bear Islamic religious clothing.[36]

1.5 million Muslims used to live in Bulgaria before Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878). After the Turkish defeat, the Russian army along with irregular troops that included Cossacks entered Bulgaria and carried out massacres and deportations against Muslim people with the aid of the Bulgarians. Half a million Muslims succeeded in going to Ottoman controlled lands and 672.215 Muslim were reported to have remained after the war in Bulgaria. Approximately a quarter of a million Muslims perished from massacres, cold, disease and other harsh conditions.[37] "I can come to no other conclusion but that the Russians are carrying out a fixed policy exterminating the Moslem race"."[38]

Persecution of Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This would have been the fate of the Turks of Anatolia had there been no victory at Gallipoli. Hence it is very clearly a victory of Islam.

BULGARIA IN OTTOMAN TIME (بلغاريا في العهد العثمان&#1610 OSMANLI BULGARİSTANI

MASS ARMENIAN TERROR IN OTTOMAN LANDS (EMENi SOYKIRIM YALANI) (GENOCIDE LIE)

 

[Azatavrear]

Think a perfidious nation who made great advantages of Ottoman times as a first class citizen under the honour medals given by Ottoman officials, was sitting on their chairs/killing civilian Turkish population and supporting the invader countries to seperate the country ( Which They feed their stomaches thanks to the country they stabbed in the back) into many pieces in difficult times of Turks (According to plan, One pieces of those lands will be given as a gift to Armos If they support them) and All plans of those parasites feeding over Turks had been blocked thanks to great intelligence and mastermind of a leader called M. Kemal Ataturk and his fellow fighters. (That's why I admire this man, He is a great leader that Any country couldn't have in past and won't have in future as well. Our great soldiers, ou great commanders under the management of M. Kemal Ataturk are a gift of Allah to Turkish nation in that years which Turkish nation falled ino really difficult conditions )

Now a days, Those perfidious nation established a small country next to Turkey-Azerbaijan but They can not reach the borders promised by imperial powers and so They started composing the songs citing the lands they eyed but can't own and never will be in those years and singing their composed songs in foreign countries as well under the name of so called Genocide, While their mouthes are smelling couse of hunger, While the country they stabed in the back is rising as a star with technology, power, strategies...etc


If You think all those complexity conditions they have falled against Turks and try to get their ill habit of mind, You would reach the respond of the questions of Why Armos are trying to throw mud everything related with Turks, Turkey ? A Turkiye with dogmas (Isolated like Iran, Syria...etc) will be benefical for Turkish nation or todays's enemies ? If not, Why this Armo accuse Ataturk to bring Western standart living quality, Rules, Technology, Working mentality, Wearings and advised future's statesman to manage a Turkey whose mentality,technology to be based completely scientific achievements as a way Turkish nation has to follow instead of dogmas for a clear future ? You know The response is clear. In Additions, Even Today's Turkish governments are applying European constitutional rules, standarts, regulations to Turkey for more freedom, living standarts, economical advancements....etc Then, what's wrong with Ataturk who saw all those truths 90 years ago ?

Hmmmm. Desperation and butthurt !!!

You can deny anything you want but you are wrong about the Armenians citizens of Ottoman empire.

At the start of WWI Russian and Turks came to Armenians and ask them to fight on their side and their lands will be returned to them if they did. Armenians who were well aware of the Hamidian massacres against them decided to join the Russians (who they did not trust either), the lesser of the two evil....these were the Russian Armenians and had nothing to do with the Armenians of Turkey. After the Armenian volunteer units destroyed Pasha's third army at the battle of Karikamish (btw, Pasha went to fight against his own generals advice) and after he himself narrowingly escaped death, he went back to Turkey and out of revenge he implemented the 8 stages of genocide on his Armenian Turkish citizens purging them from their ancestrial lands and finally answering the Armenian question. The Armenian women, children, and elderly of Turkey had no idea what is going on.
Armenian Fedayis delayed the advancement of the Turkish forces towards Baku and effectively denied help from Turkey to its allies which resulted in loss of the war, at least on land. The Armenian General Andranik was ready to take Baku, and he could of but was told by British that he must hold his position and the Armenian lands will be returned to him...again we were betrayed.

Later on after the Bolshevik revolution in Russia Ataturk made a treaty with Bolsheviks and they both attacked Armenia and Turks continuing the extermination policy. You guys pushed us back to the borders of today where at the battle of Sartarabad we stopped you dead cold. and then came Soviet Union. There was never a country named Azerbaijan before 1920s.

 

[Quasar]

WWI 1914-1918


-Ottoman-Russian War of 1828-29 Significant number of Ottoman Armenians sided with the Russian army and fought against the Ottoman Empire.

with 1876 massacres against the Muslims started!
-1890 Erzurum
-1893 Amasya, Merzifon, Ankara, Çorum, Tokat, Yozgat and Diyarbakır
-1894 Sasun
-1895 Divriği, Trabzon, Eğin, Develi, Akhisar, Erzincan, Gümüşhane, Bitlis, Bayburt, Merzifon, Maraş, Muş, Kayseri, Yozgat and Zeytun
-1896 Van
-1904 Sasun
-1909 Adana
- 1915 Van, Çatak, Bitlis


World War I you did the same thing


-four battalions of Armainan volunteers in the russian army,
-Dashnak committees behind the front line, massacred the civilian muslim population,
same with your orthodox brothers Serbians (ethnic cleansing )

around more than 500.000 Turk and muslim

 

[Quasar]

assassination attempted on Sultan Abdul Hamid II or bombings in istanbul, Ottoman bank are irrelavant so no need to mention here?

anyway what happened was big disaster! both societies crossed an ethical border! used or betrayed by russia or others, but still first it was Armanians who desired a land and a future without Turks and they got it, not in a way that they want tough!

 

[cabatli_53]

1.

So you claim that hats, letters, measurement systems , giving or not giving women equal rights are all about Islam.

So for you a Muslim;
- must wear a fez ,
- must be preferably illiterate (Literacy rate was less than %5 before Republic now more than %99 thanks to easy learning latin alphabet ),
- must use ancient measurement systems and always must have difficulties with world trade, preferably don't make world trade instead non-muslim minorities like greeks and armenians do worldwide trade for him,
- must not give women equal rights, lock them in their houses and never use them in industry and business world as manpower and always use %50 capacity of the population,
- must never spread true Islam belief, must always have 1000's of different sects and groups fighting with each other and never live in a peace, (unity is not something for only christian churchs)

Ataturk tried to find solutions for these kind of problems that led Turks get weakend during history,

I don't believe your sincerity for your comments and criticizes about Ataturk and Islam besides I don't think that you are number one Islam and Turk expert as an Armenian guy

2.

Think a perfidious nation who made great advantages of Ottoman times as a first class citizen under the honour medals given by Ottoman officials, was sitting on their chairs/killing civilian Turkish population and supporting the invader countries to seperate the country ( Which They feed their stomaches thanks to the country they stabbed in the back) into many pieces in difficult times of Turks (According to plan, One pieces of those lands will be given as a gift to Armos If they support them) and All plans of those parasites feeding over Turks had been blocked thanks to great intelligence and mastermind of a leader called M. Kemal Ataturk and his fellow fighters. (That's why I admire this man, He is a great leader that Any country couldn't have in past and won't have in future as well. Our great soldiers, ou great commanders under the management of M. Kemal Ataturk are a gift of Allah to Turkish nation in that years which Turkish nation falled ino really difficult conditions )

Now a days, Those perfidious nation established a small country next to Turkey-Azerbaijan but They can not reach the borders promised by imperial powers and so They started composing the songs citing the lands they eyed but can't own and never will be in those years and singing their composed songs in foreign countries as well under the name of so called Genocide, While their mouthes are smelling couse of hunger, While the country they stabed in the back is rising as a star with technology, power, strategies...etc


If You think all those complexity conditions they have falled against Turks and try to get their ill habit of mind, You would reach the respond of the questions of Why Armos are trying to throw mud everything related with Turks, Turkey ? A Turkiye with dogmas (Isolated like Iran, Syria...etc) will be benefical for Turkish nation or todays's enemies ? If not, Why this Armo accuse Ataturk to bring Western standart living quality, Rules, Technology, Working mentality, Wearings and advised future's statesman to manage a Turkey whose mentality,technology to be based completely scientific achievements as a way Turkish nation has to follow instead of dogmas for a clear future ? You know The response is clear. In Additions, Even Today's Turkish governments are applying European constitutional rules, standarts, regulations to Turkey for more freedom, living standarts, economical advancements....etc Then, what's wrong with Ataturk who saw all those truths 90 years ago ?

Hmmmm. Desperation and butthurt !!!

3.

@Zulkarneyn

I do agree that we should be able to discuss our history there is no doubt about it! however Ottoman is not an exception!

we should thank Cirit since he managed to summarize the Turkish revolution through enlisting some substantial facts!

such reformist movements are not unique to us i.e adopting contemporary and more successful systems! even Ottomans merged the Seljuk heritage with Byzantine! Fatih sultan Mehmet is an other good example "the new Rome" or Mahmut the II and Selim the III

lets take Japan or Russia for instance! simply they are the best and the most successful examples of modernization and reforms! as you might agree they were and still they are equally as conservative as our society ( without any negative connotations) with the advantage of in the case of japan a homogeneous society and in the case of Russia a vast amount of natural and human resource! hope you may reconsider some aspects of your understanding in the light of this historical context!

4.

@Zulkarneyn
with in a analytical framework and with coherent arguments every issue can be a subject of critical thinking! however, history is not an easy subject since the current structure of social reality and our present value system/hierarch of values in this system or simply our political or ideological inclinations can cause disturbances to any interpretation! I guess you may agree that history is a continuum! (not a very meaningful though) therefore utilizing a concept (and a methodological tool) "transitional phase" can be misleading!

1. mesrutiyet 2. mesrytiyet, tanzimat fermani, meclisi mebusan

and Turkish Republic is the end result of a long process!& an unfinished project!

concerning core beliefs! I afraid this implies a kind of non existing immaculate origine! again I hope you may agree that anything social including beliefs( it immediately becomes an interpretation) are not constant! however, there is a wide spreaded-hegemonic understanding of it which works as a common ground! ( among others)

but I agree that some professionals" (artists, writers, politicans etc) alienated themselves from their own society! but thanks god we have some European values/institutions which appeal to a universal audience like parliamentary democracy, elections and some sort of freedom of thought;so people can replace the politicians ! and I am free to hate some writers or artists like Orhan pamuk or fazil say like the rest of my society!

Addiditons, The half democratic reforms Ottoman Empire applied but Failed...

1-Senedi İttifak 1808)
2-Tanzimat Fermanı (1839)
3-Islahat Fermanı(1856)
4-1.Meşrutiyet(1876)
5-Kanun-i Esasi ( First constitute to reach European standarts)
6-2.Meşrutiyet (1909)

In those times, Ottoman was equal to current Syria's conditions which was trying to give some equal rights to own citizens While trying to decrease the sovereign of sultans over citizens with above regulations...etc but Failed and The Imperials who wants to put weakness of Ottoman a good use, took action and seperated the Empire into many pieces until M. Kemal Ataturk and his fire friends say Stop there or We will stop you ( Even If Latest Ottomand management called Itanbu government accused Ataturk to act independant from Istanbul government ınder the invasion of Britain). The latest and most successfull revolutions were the ones Ataturk applied to reach the Western standarts/countries After He established Turkish Republic... That;'s why We call him revolutionist...



5.

WWI 1914-1918


-Ottoman-Russian War of 1828-29 Significant number of Ottoman Armenians sided with the Russian army and fought against the Ottoman Empire.

with 1876 massacres against the Muslims started!
-1890 Erzurum
-1893 Amasya, Merzifon, Ankara, Çorum, Tokat, Yozgat and Diyarbakır
-1894 Sasun
-1895 Divriği, Trabzon, Eğin, Develi, Akhisar, Erzincan, Gümüşhane, Bitlis, Bayburt, Merzifon, Maraş, Muş, Kayseri, Yozgat and Zeytun
-1896 Van
-1904 Sasun
-1909 Adana
- 1915 Van, Çatak, Bitlis


World War I you did the same thing


-four battalions of Armainan volunteers in the russian army,
-Dashnak committees behind the front line, massacred the civilian muslim population,
same with your orthodox brothers Serbians (ethnic cleansing )

around more than 500.000 Turk and muslim

I think This thread has so special and real historical informations correcting some intentional misinformations of members about Turkish history that Every students from schools have to be taught over those point of views...


but I have to add one more facts Quasar told about Armenians latest pefridicious against Turks in his latest post. It is Armenian teror organisation Asala (Turkish secret agencies kicked their b@tts in foreign countries, especially in French) representing their nature and habits to destroy Turkish citizens/diplomats with using terror tactics as They applied same tactics over Anatolian Turks under the collaboration with Russia in past...

 

[Azatavrear]

Well to be perfectly honest i do agree with some of your points. Ataturk was indeed a good commander in war, but his ideas about making Turkey a copycat of Germany/France is against my beliefs. In my eyes Turkey/Ottoman is and was always greater both socially and humanely than Europe. After the introduction of nationalism, we have come much closer to Europe, which is really sad. Remember it was the Young Turks, inspired by France/Germany (most of them were Jewish), who persecuted Kurds and Armenians (they were brought to justice/court for their cruel actions later). I know many fellow Turkish members will feel angered by this post. But if we are to speak our mind, without any disturbances, we can lead to concensus. But if we attack each other with insults etc. i wont discuss any further. I am open to criticism but not insults.

Mustafa Kemal was a strong warrior.....His attack on Armenians I consider war casulties.

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.
Ataturk

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Before we discuss any further we have to agree on some basic elements. Firstly, Azatavrear you have to accept the fact that Armenians in the East slaughtered whole villages because the whole empire's army was on front, which they saw as a chance to strike back. Secondly, i do accept that some of the Ottoman policies which resulted in the death of many Armenians were indeed sad and wrong, but as Quasar explained, we can't judge yesterdays actions with today's glasses. And those respnsible for the death of Armenians were brought to justice, BUT the number which Armenians claim are completely out of proportion, 1 million comon!

Quasar and Cabatli
It is true that Ataturk were a great influence for the countries unification after all the damages we received. It is also true that he revolutionized the whole country. But, the policies which he and his comrades fought against in the war of independence were almost the same that he implemented after their victory against the foreign invaders. That is what i do simply reject to respect. In my honest opinion Ataturk should not ban all the norms and traditions that we inherited from our ancestors. He and his comrades were especially very harsh on religious authorities. How can you explain banning the headscarf of a 99% muslim population? Do you not find it illogical and irrational to disrespect the core beliefs that we as a population always had? Just because the last centuries of the Ottoman was a failure (which is open to discussion) does not equal that Islam as a state religion is the core problem of advancement. If you have such ideas, then how can you even defend the rights of muslims?

Look, we have to draw a line between what is right (islamically) and what is not. When you pass the line of righteousness, how you will you ever return again?

 

[tony singh]

My Turkish Hairdresser was telling me about this and how in UK they never teach this because the English got their ***** kicked

 

[Cirit]

1) In my honest opinion Ataturk should not ban all the norms and traditions that we inherited from our ancestors.

2) He and his comrades were especially very harsh on religious authorities.

3) How can you explain banning the headscarf of a 99% muslim population?

4) Do you not find it illogical and irrational to disrespect the core beliefs that we as a population always had?

5) Just because the last centuries of the Ottoman was a failure (which is open to discussion) does not equal that Islam as a state religion is the core problem of advancement.

6) If you have such ideas, then how can you even defend the rights of muslims?

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. "
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” Joseph Goebbels

Let me ask,

1) When you say all norms and traditions what do you mean, as far as I know Republic Law Codes always respected the common values of Turkish people and humanity and , besides even Islam itself does not accept many traditions, if not Muslims would still have killed their daughters.
If a tradition is wrong (it can be) and poisining the society you have to quit it.
"Berdel", which is swifting daughters of two families without asking girls, just to make them brides for sons is a "tradition", do you think we should keep it?

2) Which authorities? Can you tell me which authorities do we have in Islam belief?
3) Big lie, whose grandmothers were not able to cover their hairs, untill "Turban" (Turban style is invented in late 70s,) is started to be used as a political symbol of " Political Islam" (MSP, Refah,Saadet, AKP etc.) in mid 80s.
4) What disrespects?
5) Please give us a modern wealty and powerfull state, that is administered with religious beliefs only?
6)Defending millions of Muslim Turks and helping them not to get disappear does not count?

 

[Zulkarneyn]

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. "
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” Joseph Goebbels

Let me ask,

1) When you say all norms and traditions what do you mean, as far as I know Republic Law Codes always respected the common values of Turkish people and humanity and , besides even Islam itself does not accept many traditions, if not Muslims would still have killed their daughters.
If a tradition is wrong (it can be) and poisining the society you have to quit it.
"Berdel", which is swifting daughters of two families without asking girls, just to make them brides for sons is a "tradition", do you think we should keep it?

2) Which authorities? Can you tell me which authorities do we have in Islam belief?
3) Big lie, whose grandmothers were not able to cover their hairs, untill "Turban" (Turban style is invented in late 70s,) is started to be used as a political symbol of " Political Islam" (MSP, Refah,Saadet, AKP etc.) in mid 80s.
4) What disrespects?
5) Please give us a modern wealty and powerfull state, that is administered with religious beliefs only?
6)Defending millions of Muslim Turks and helping them not to get disappear does not count?

Firstly, you do not discuss in a very friendly manner, i would kindly suggest you to change your attitude. Stop accusations...

About your points.

1: When i say norms and traditions, i firstly talk about Islamic belief system and behavior. That should not surprise anyone. Our core beliefs derives from our religion. Because Islam is not only a religion, it is the very fabric of reality. If you say you are Muslim, you must agree that life is part of Allah's creation. And that we must follow on the path Allah has commanded in his holy scripts via his messengers (Muhammad PBUH, Jesus etc.). All those nonsense traditions you mention above is absolutely garbage, they have no place in Islam.
2: Islamic authorities, such as respected Imams. Imams which have the authority to give fatwas etc. Ataturk was very clear in his speeches that Islamic authorities had to play no significant role in the nation.
3: Ataturk encouraged the Turks to wear modern European attire. He abolished the caliphate in 1924. In 1926 the penal code was passed which was modelled after the Italian Penal Code. In 1926, all Islamic courts were closed. All of this could have been done to save Turkey and modernize it. Yet, why so furious against Islamic principles? In Quran it is very clearly stated that when people are judged they should be judged according to Islamic belief system. If one does not accept the rules stated in the Quran than one should doubt his belief. Ataturk tried to change the clothing of the Republic for it to become even more "modern". He also had plans to abolish women's veils.

About the "turban" issue. The only reason this was brought up was to delegitimize the veil/headscarf, and by introducing this concept of "symbolic" headscarf some politicians succeeded in banning wearing any type of veil in certain areas.
4: When i talk about disrespect i talk about trying to westernize our country and abolish the fez, veil, azan in arabic, reading quran in groups. If you have the slightest clue about the Turkish history then you know that all the mentioned above has happened, and some of them are still happening.
5) Every European countries except France have official state religions. In almost every European countries you automatically pay money to the church. These countries allow people to wear religious clothing, and they respect them, unlike Turkey the last couple of decades. Malaysia is almost administered with Islamic sharia, and they have a very high HDI.
Even if there are few countries who can't live up to western standards it doesn't equal they fail? Thank god we are not as materialistic and destroy the valuable material resources as much as the West. And thank god that we didn't have the same colonial past as Europe. If you think our model should be Europe and their materialistic world view than there is absolutely nothing to discuss.

6: I think it is not very clever of anyone to say that Ataturk alone defended the whole country. By doing that you underestimate the Turkish people who fought and died for the country during WW1 and the War of independence.

 

[cabatli_53]

Quasar and Cabatli
It is true that Ataturk were a great influence for the countries unification after all the damages we received. It is also true that he revolutionized the whole country. But, the policies which he and his comrades fought against in the war of independence were almost the same that he implemented after their victory against the foreign invaders. That is what i do simply reject to respect. In my honest opinion (1) Ataturk should not ban all the norms and traditions that we inherited from our ancestors. He and his comrades were especially very harsh on religious authorities. (2) How can you explain banning the headscarf of a 99% muslim population? (3) Do you not find it illogical and irrational to disrespect the core beliefs that we as a population always had? Just because the last centuries of the Ottoman was a failure (which is open to discussion) does not equal that Islam as a state religion is the core problem of advancement. If you have such ideas, then how can you even defend the rights of muslims?

Look, we have to draw a line between what is right (islamically) and what is not. When you pass the line of righteousness, how you will you ever return again?

(1) Islam has nothing to do with different geoghraphies' traditions, wearings, hats, shocks, muctaches, beards...etc That's why some Rules are flexible to apply different geoghraphies and different cultures. It is just the some people who needs to be educated, trivializing Islam with mixing even underpath wearing styles, their steps in accordance with right legs...etc of people as an Islamic rules to create a sacrificial lamb in accordince with their politic approaches...


Islam is a perfect rules systems organizing human-human relations with some basic building stones such as "Peace, Tolerance, Good Faith, Understanding...etc" and advices the people How they have to act in order to reach those honourable virtues. The people can only be ranked as a muslim in accordance with those virtues they have in their lifestyle. It is not important Wheather It is the word of "Muslim" typed in his indentity card, or How many times Women weared 21. century modern clothes instead of şalvar, fes or How long Men grow their beards, How many times you read Arabic words...etc


Unfortunately, Ottoman made such a mistake and Instead of applying the building stones of Islam, Transfered/Has to transfer Arabizm as Islam from wearing to politic angels (While sex, theft, ambition and fratricides are rising with a high speed in palaces) and so Some of current generations who has been taught by some special known communities, are mixing Islamic rules with Arabizm and the people touching the Arabic rules in Turkey seen like infidel in their eyes. Such people can even accuse their own history cause of changing the Arabic alphabets. All those can not be the domestic culture Our ancestors legated to us.



(2) There isn't such a thing like banning headscarf in Ataturk times. Ataturk's mother was also wearing headscarf. This is the fabrication of some communities for politic purposes.


(3) Noone disrespect the beliefs of people and Everybody is free to believe everything and pray However they want but If you take the Arabic culture, alphabets, şalvar...etc as Islam (Even If All those have been changed in accordance with the modern World's neccesities, In your individual life, You can live However you want but can not adopt those as official Turkish state's lifestyle) and accuse the people acting disrespect to Islam cause of criticize/change all those backward mentality of people, I can just advice you that, Stop there and think twice about your islamic comprehension...

6: I think it is not very clever of anyone to say that Ataturk alone defended the whole country. By doing that you underestimate the Turkish people who fought and died for the country during WW1 and the War of independence.

Why did you need to type such sentences ? Is there anybody who claimed that Ataturk was sole person who fought to establish Turkish republic ? I think Noone but Anybody can't deny that He is the sole master-mind brain of independace war in even most difficult times of wars...

 

[skymn494]

best regards for missing ones.we still miss them.thanks to the 'gazi pasha' who strived enormously to make this victory happened.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

(1) Islam has nothing to do with different geoghraphies' traditions, wearings, hats, shocks, muctaches, beards...etc That's why some Rules are flexible to apply different geoghraphies and different cultures. It is just the some people who needs to be educated, trivializing Islam with mixing even underpath wearing styles, their steps in accordance with right legs...etc of people as an Islamic rules to create a sacrificial lamb in accordince with their politic approaches...


Islam is a perfect rules systems organizing human-human relations with some basic building stones such as "Peace, Tolerance, Good Faith, Understanding...etc" and advices the people How they have to act in order to reach those honourable virtues. The people can only be ranked as a muslim in accordance with those virtues they have in their lifestyle. It is not important Wheather It is the word of "Muslim" typed in his indentity card, or How many times Women weared 21. century modern clothes instead of şalvar, fes or How long Men grow their beards, How many times you read Arabic words...etc


Unfortunately, Ottoman made such a mistake and Instead of applying the building stones of Islam, Transfered/Has to transfer Arabizm as Islam from wearing to politic angels (While sex, theft, ambition and fratricides are rising with a high speed in palaces) and so Some of current generations who has been taught by some special known communities, are mixing Islamic rules with Arabizm and the people touching the Arabic rules in Turkey seen like infidel in their eyes. Such people can even accuse their own history cause of changing the Arabic alphabets. All those can not be the domestic culture Our ancestors legated to us.



(2) There isn't such a thing like banning headscarf in Ataturk times. Ataturk's mother was also wearing headscarf. This is the fabrication of some communities for politic purposes.


(3) Noone disrespect the beliefs of people and Everybody is free to believe everything and pray However they want but If you take the Arabic culture, alphabets, şalvar...etc as Islam (Even If All those have been changed in accordance with the modern World's neccesities, In your individual life, You can live However you want but can not adopt those as official Turkish state's lifestyle) and accuse the people acting disrespect to Islam cause of criticize/change all those backward mentality of people, I can just advice you that, Stop there and think twice about your islamic comprehension...



Why did you need to type such sentences ? Is there anybody who claimed that Ataturk was sole person who fought to establish Turkish republic ? I think Noone but Anybody can't deny that He is the sole master-mind brain of independace war in even most difficult times of wars...

Ataturk was a great strategist,no doubt about that. He also understood how a society could survive in an increasing competitive world. But by striving after modernisation, his policies underestimated certain islamic values. Like i said before, i don't give a dime about the Arabic wearing or anything mentioned above. What i find important is the very way of life Islam teaches us. To read while being aware of the creators creations. That science goes hand in hand with religion, some of the greatest scientific discoveries appeared in Islamic societies no one can deny that, Andulus and Ottoman are perfect examples of that. But as you have summed up Cabatli, the last centuries of Ottoman was indeed a failure.

Ataturk saw religion as an obstacle for scientific and socio-economic development, there is absolutely no doubt about that. Ataturk in his several speeches states that real awakening can only be established with Western lifestyle. All the fez and wearing rulings are examples of that. I can come with evidence if you wish so, but i don't even need that because it is an accepted fact. Secularism, according to secularists are the only way. But once you forbid women to dress as they wish, and once you forbid them attending universities and insult them, there is something very wrong about this country.
How can you live peacefully with millions of women whose rights are taken away from them just because they follow the rulings of Islam? It is not "arabic" wear but Quran clearly states that women must cover their hair. If you can't accept the freedom to chose religion in an overwhelmingly muslim country and ban headscarf then you can't even take religion into private affairs because the state does not allow you to practice your beliefs. Banning the reading of Quran in groups because you suspect them of forming religios "sects", how ridiculous is that? We don't have to restrict criticizing Ataturks implementations. In the end he is only a man, not a prophet or anything. Take the good things he brought to this country and develop the things you disagree with him. Almost a century passed, and we still hesitate to critizise our historical leaders. If we can't learn from our past mistakes, we will never be able to develop a free and fair society.