Future of moodI jee,s air shakti & its effects on PAF !

[zebra7]

Quite an interesting point, well as far as the comparison of JF-17 and LCA goes, I've seen alot of the Indian members pointing the same thing again and again -- however like most of the other subjects the opinions of us members are tainted by patriotism ...

Some from the Pakistani side believe JF-17 is the "it" plane, that it is the cure for every problem that we face when it comes to IAF -- let's just start by admitting its not -- like every other aircraft it has its set of limitations that it has to face all of which are discussed to the death by critics and supporters alike on this forum ....

However when it comes to this "indigenous" battle, lets just say that a comparison is dishonest to begin with because one is supposedly an "indigenous" fighter project, the other from the outset has been termed a joint venture --

However when it comes to LCA and JFT, say project wise (Project A vs Project B), there is not even a comparison ---

JFT outperformed its expectations, it was supposed to be a low-mid tier economic fighter, yet today --- it just happens to be termed the "destiny of PAF" by none other then the airchief himself ... not simply because its a good platform, but for what it gives to PAF ... it gives a generation advantage over the fighters it replaces today ... It gives PAF the options to engage with other suppliers and integrate weapons of choice with freedom, it gives minimal problems when it comes to having strings attached ... it gives higher availability rates, low turn around times etc. ... and combine that with the fact that PAF is very pleased with the performance and the fact that it still remains true, to the original objectives of cost effectiveness that was laid down when the concept was conceived ...

For a nation like Pakistan, with no prior history of manufacturing jets at all, this is a MAJOR breakthrough and a success even if the indigenous content is 0.0000001% because it overshot the original goals that were laid down for it ..

However, when you look at LCA, you see the original idea revolving around having "indigenous" equipment, and with time lags that the project faced due to being committed to having that "indigenous content" the project fell apart ... to the point where the whole "indigenous content" objective took the back seat to short term fixes like getting inputs from industry giants just to get it work --- which I don't blame you for, because that would be the course of action any sane organization would take, after all there would be no use of "indigenous" equipment if it was a generation old when it was ultimately put in to service ... but ultimately, one of the main objectives of the project took a back seat, lets go further where is it now ... delayed again ... now the news is even more depressing -- The same IAF that was saying that it will take MK-II in numbers is now rumored to be settling for a less capable version in the MK-1 or a slightly upgraded MK-1A because the squadron strength of IAF is declining and you have a huge number of Mig-21's to replace and can't face any more delays ...

Now combine that with the fact that production in numbers is still a good 2 years away AT BEST --- what does it say about the project ?? -- that it's a success ?? now I wont say that it doesn't benefit your industry because that would be ignorant of me, however the fact remains that the LCA project wise is a laughing stock ...

these comparisons of .... "ohh look its more indigenous then your Thunder" are meaningless because by the time the full blown production of the LCA starts, the JFT project would be in the initial phases of up gradation by half a generation over what it currently is ...

Hymn quiet intersteting post. Lets talk Lca first first the idea was to replace mig-21 and to keep up with the technological gap and developed the IPRs and setup the Aero industrial base that existed with the 15 year of obseulant after the Marut Saga. If we consider the LCA project than its not only the plane but the environment which was created with the establishments of various institutions, psu, spread across the country. Being democratic country and with the total life of the govt. of 5 years, with too much ifs and buts and supendofantastic Political parties, funds, land acquisition rules, work culture of 9am-5pm, ADA came up with the plane called LCA Tejas with its unique tailless Delta structure utilizing the expertise of composites, aerodynamic knowledge gained from the Marut's earlier work, and Engine technology which is only meant for couple of OEMs of US, Europe, and Russia , and the develop tech related to FBW, have worked extremely good job and their prescribed 1.2 Billion budget allotted and with the sword over the head for getting the whole project dumped with only one incidence of mishaps. Which country is able to develop such complex project in such Budget period. LCA is the project of not ADA but the group of hundereds of PSUs and more than 1000 suppliers/parties and oem involved. It was the step taken to bring back India into the picture of the country that can try to design/develop a fighter plane of its own.
With the misunderstanding of lot of the pakistani members this project was proposed by HAL to the govt in 80's but the govt decided to create ADA the developing and R&D entity to lead the project. The decision was taken that IAF will put its ASR and ADA will give the fissibility report so that funds could be released for building of prototypes. first IAF released its ASR after 8 years of that and then the fund was released in 1988 for ADA to present the govt with the fisibility report that India have the capability of building such complex project. In 1993 the fund was released for phase 1 to build the 2 prototype so that they could the proof of the project's concept.
Phase 2 started in 2001 to develop more prototype, testing and certification and validation of the avionics and control laws from flight data, and building their SP series aircraft. And in 2005 IAF gives its first order of 20 aircraft.

After the concept was validated and project defination reviewed, several projects were released in parallel like setting CLAW for the control law for FBW, MMR and Engine development etc. So the LCA project helps in the creation of several project which ultimately help India to develop various IPRs.

Now these details all know but if you see Indians choose the difficult/longer, painstaking but safer way and the approach and even there is dire requirement of the blank squadron to be filled but the approach taken in the development and the R&D was consistent and with planned steps, validation, re-validation, recheck, rechecked and reviewed in every steps . It can look long and people might make fun but this is the best approach and really helpful because one accident could take the LCA to the gallow.

If you go with the logic of the replacement of IAF's Mig-21, then in present IAF's LCA mk1 was way long able to do that even without attaining FOC but since ADA is only the desighner, HAL is the prime contractor to manufacture and IAF is the customer who is insisting to induct only after IOC and FOC i.e they want their planes ready to fire wvvram missile and LGP bombs from the very first day of induction. Hope you understand this simple thing. Does PAF had such Criteria befor inducting JF-17.

With the change of situations and conditions IAF presented another ASR with which they express the requirement of Tejas MK2 which could replace not only Mig 21 but also Mig 27, Jaguar and even Mirrage 2000.

Now if talk about JF-17 its the project that pakistan took by funding the Super Sabre project and took advantage by getting the product quickly which was almost developed by the industrial country who didn't needed that anymore and needed the funds to continue. Which obviously they got in the form of JF-17. Now 2 things arises, if Pakistan is the partner in this JV which offcource she joined late during the development and 50% rights of the plane which most of the pakistani members will agree does they have the 50% IPRs right of the aerodynamic flight datas, and the subsystems developed in conjustions of that. Or Pakistan have only 50% rights on the profits they earn with the export to other countries. This question about the IPR's right I am unable to find my friend till now. The one who think its a laughable stock should check the video should watch the video in which During the paris show how the reporters of Taiwan was denied to come close to JF-17 even when they were accompanied by the PAF personal, that shows the real master. Comparing Marut is so funny when all the R&D and development is in the country with the knowledge inherited to the later one.

can it be compared with mig 21 - No mig 21 is manufactured by hal from the raw material including engine.
can it be compared with jaguar - No Hal have all the jigs, dies, to make its airframe with raw material.
can it be compared with MKI - Same with the raw material to final product with indegenious mission computer, RWR, UHF voice, its more indian but never claimed indegenious by any Indians.

Now what was the aim of JF-17 and did she achieve that yes definitely they got the plane and the weapons they were deprived as explained above and does the Lca achieve its target Surely it have because IAF needed Tejas because if they needed MIG 21 bison, or Jaguar Hal have all the jigs and die to get the line rock and roll and if they want Mirrage 2000 there are various countries like UAE who would love to do that. or dassault wouldn't mind to place another line. And the man is the laughing stock who fails to digest the fact that the painful path is only for the first time and next block or the variable role of the product could be achieved more easily because if your BASE IS STRONG, YOU ARE STRONGER THAN THE ONE WHO EVEN DON'T HAVE ANY BASE BUT CHEST THUMB THE ACHIEVEMENT OF OTHERS.

 

[migflug]

Its out in the Market though .. 06th October, 2015
India’s Air Force Will Field 42 Combat Squadrons by 2027 | The Diplomat

Air Chief Marshal Raha, announced that the IAF will procure a larger number of improved Mark-I Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – dubbed Tejas Mark-IA- than the forty it had originally committed to buying. “We are ready to take more — 120 (fighters), six squadrons of Tejas… We are ready to take it as soon as they (HAL) can provide it. That means they have to ramp up the production rate, which is running behind schedule… But we will take all 120,” he said. (The IAF recently abandoned plans to develop an upgraded Mark-II LCA.)



Yes U r Right ... this is sensationalism created by Journos .. I was not saying Tejas is All this .. it was in response to an earlier comment ..

It dosent matter iaf want mk2 or not. Because mk2 is originally being developed for navy. Also there is no official confirmation of mk2 being cancelled.

 

[batmannow]

It dosent matter iaf want mk2 or not. Because mk2 is originally being developed for navy. Also there is no official confirmation of mk2 being cancelled.

Mk 1 or 2 or even zero all of them are just drawings ? Right still none of them part of IAF?or never will be ?lolzz

Hymn quiet intersteting post. Lets talk Lca first first the idea was to replace mig-21 and to keep up with the technological gap and developed the IPRs and setup the Aero industrial base that existed with the 15 year of obseulant after the Marut Saga. If we consider the LCA project than its not only the plane but the environment which was created with the establishments of various institutions, psu, spread across the country. Being democratic country and with the total life of the govt. of 5 years, with too much ifs and buts and supendofantastic Political parties, funds, land acquisition rules, work culture of 9am-5pm, ADA came up with the plane called LCA Tejas with its unique tailless Delta structure utilizing the expertise of composites, aerodynamic knowledge gained from the Marut's earlier work, and Engine technology which is only meant for couple of OEMs of US, Europe, and Russia , and the develop tech related to FBW, have worked extremely good job and their prescribed 1.2 Billion budget allotted and with the sword over the head for getting the whole project dumped with only one incidence of mishaps. Which country is able to develop such complex project in such Budget period. LCA is the project of not ADA but the group of hundereds of PSUs and more than 1000 suppliers/parties and oem involved. It was the step taken to bring back India into the picture of the country that can try to design/develop a fighter plane of its own.
With the misunderstanding of lot of the pakistani members this project was proposed by HAL to the govt in 80's but the govt decided to create ADA the developing and R&D entity to lead the project. The decision was taken that IAF will put its ASR and ADA will give the fissibility report so that funds could be released for building of prototypes. first IAF released its ASR after 8 years of that and then the fund was released in 1988 for ADA to present the govt with the fisibility report that India have the capability of building such complex project. In 1993 the fund was released for phase 1 to build the 2 prototype so that they could the proof of the project's concept.
Phase 2 started in 2001 to develop more prototype, testing and certification and validation of the avionics and control laws from flight data, and building their SP series aircraft. And in 2005 IAF gives its first order of 20 aircraft.

After the concept was validated and project defination reviewed, several projects were released in parallel like setting CLAW for the control law for FBW, MMR and Engine development etc. So the LCA project helps in the creation of several project which ultimately help India to develop various IPRs.

Now these details all know but if you see Indians choose the difficult/longer, painstaking but safer way and the approach and even there is dire requirement of the blank squadron to be filled but the approach taken in the development and the R&D was consistent and with planned steps, validation, re-validation, recheck, rechecked and reviewed in every steps . It can look long and people might make fun but this is the best approach and really helpful because one accident could take the LCA to the gallow.

If you go with the logic of the replacement of IAF's Mig-21, then in present IAF's LCA mk1 was way long able to do that even without attaining FOC but since ADA is only the desighner, HAL is the prime contractor to manufacture and IAF is the customer who is insisting to induct only after IOC and FOC i.e they want their planes ready to fire wvvram missile and LGP bombs from the very first day of induction. Hope you understand this simple thing. Does PAF had such Criteria befor inducting JF-17.

With the change of situations and conditions IAF presented another ASR with which they express the requirement of Tejas MK2 which could replace not only Mig 21 but also Mig 27, Jaguar and even Mirrage 2000.

Now if talk about JF-17 its the project that pakistan took by funding the Super Sabre project and took advantage by getting the product quickly which was almost developed by the industrial country who didn't needed that anymore and needed the funds to continue. Which obviously they got in the form of JF-17. Now 2 things arises, if Pakistan is the partner in this JV which offcource she joined late during the development and 50% rights of the plane which most of the pakistani members will agree does they have the 50% IPRs right of the aerodynamic flight datas, and the subsystems developed in conjustions of that. Or Pakistan have only 50% rights on the profits they earn with the export to other countries. This question about the IPR's right I am unable to find my friend till now. The one who think its a laughable stock should check the video should watch the video in which During the paris show how the reporters of Taiwan was denied to come close to JF-17 even when they were accompanied by the PAF personal, that shows the real master. Comparing Marut is so funny when all the R&D and development is in the country with the knowledge inherited to the later one.

can it be compared with mig 21 - No mig 21 is manufactured by hal from the raw material including engine.
can it be compared with jaguar - No Hal have all the jigs, dies, to make its airframe with raw material.
can it be compared with MKI - Same with the raw material to final product with indegenious mission computer, RWR, UHF voice, its more indian but never claimed indegenious by any Indians.

Now what was the aim of JF-17 and did she achieve that yes definitely they got the plane and the weapons they were deprived as explained above and does the Lca achieve its target Surely it have because IAF needed Tejas because if they needed MIG 21 bison, or Jaguar Hal have all the jigs and die to get the line rock and roll and if they want Mirrage 2000 there are various countries like UAE who would love to do that. or dassault wouldn't mind to place another line. And the man is the laughing stock who fails to digest the fact that the painful path is only for the first time and next block or the variable role of the product could be achieved more easily because if your BASE IS STRONG, YOU ARE STRONGER THAN THE ONE WHO EVEN DON'T HAVE ANY BASE BUT CHEST THUMB THE ACHIEVEMENT OF OTHERS.

How long it will take , India to complete its PAPER DRAWN LCA to be part of IAF ?
cut short of your lengthy & unrelated praghraphs & be specific ?
I guss 50 more years ?right !lolzz

 

[migflug]

Mk 1 or 2 or even zero all of them are just drawings ? Right still none of them part of IAF?or never will be ?lolzz


How long it will take , India to complete its PAPER DRAWN LCA to be part of IAF ?
cut short of your lengthy & unrelated praghraphs & be specific ?
I guss 50 more years ?right !lolzz

Why are u so desperate.so afraid of tejas that will whack your jf17

 

[dray]

Dawn News

• HOME
  Modi pushes 'obsolete' made-in-India plane on reluctant military Dawn PUBLISHED ABOUT 10 HOURS AGO
• • NEW DELHI: India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.
    
    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.
    
    The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.
    
    Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.
    
    The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.
    
    Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy
    
    But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.
    
    "The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.
    
    "The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."
    
    India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.
    
    With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.
    
    Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.
    
    Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.
    
    Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.
    
    "In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.
    
    Safety concerns
    An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.
    
    Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.
    
    "It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."
    
    He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.
    
    "We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.
    
    But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the Indian air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.
    
    "Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.
    
    State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.
    
    "We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."
    
    Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.
    
    A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.
    
    "There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"
    
    with that mind set where indian air force is going from now onwards ?
  • & what will be its implications on PAF ?

There seems to be 300 copies of this same article spread all over the media in different countries. Some people are working hard.

 

[batmannow]

There seems to be 300 copies of this same article spread all over the media in different countries. Some people are working hard.

That's the problem here , even if the whole world says the same thing about a stupid decision by the INDIAN pm , who don't have any idea about air force or any fighter jet , even then our Indian friends will keep priasing him over his crazy decesions for the sake of religious based politics ?
They won't listen , their own professionals in their air force , how it will reduce its capabilities to what level ?

 

[Dukkar]

Mk 1 or 2 or even zero all of them are just drawings ? Right still none of them part of IAF?or never will be ?lolzz


How long it will take , India to complete its PAPER DRAWN LCA to be part of IAF ?
cut short of your lengthy & unrelated praghraphs & be specific ?
I guss 50 more years ?right !lolzz

Well ,you can lolz all you want but fact is IAF with or without LCA can beat PAf hollow with just SU-30's & M IG-29's .

 

[batmannow]

Why are u so desperate.so afraid of tejas that will whack your jf17

Actually we are not ?
But looking at our hardest enemy been destroyed by a crazy tea boy , I mean its too much fun ?lolzz

Well ,you can lolz all you want but fact is IAF with or without LCA can beat PAf hollow with just SU-30's & M IG-29's .

Sure , even ! with out SU-30 & MIG 29 ?
ONLY moodi jee ,s stupid picture would be enough cause ,, our pilots may die laughing at him ?lolzz

 

[xperia]

Well ,you can lolz all you want but fact is IAF with or without LCA can beat PAf hollow with just SU-30's & M IG-29's .

beta jao ja k khailo.

 

[zebra7]

How long it will take , India to complete its PAPER DRAWN LCA to be part of IAF ?
cut short of your lengthy & unrelated praghraphs & be specific ?
I guss 50 more years ?right !lolzz

Improvement is the continous process Mk1 is ready and inducted and going under FOC process.
Mk-1a improvements just like block improvement parallel.
Mk2 in Advance Preminary Design phase expected around 2025 and complete production and deployment in 2030, time when MKI would hand over its superiority genisis to FGFA.
After 50 years only Aura and its sons/cousins will rule the sky JANAB.

Aur Janab apke Humwatan poster ne lamba sa khat likha tha to humne bhi uska Jawab likh diya, easa hi aapne sikhaya tha hame .

 

[Hell hound]

Oh sure that's why never been produced after its single solo launch ? Lol


Keep promoting whatever you want , but in any airwar all of your nice words not going to defend India ?Lil
Face the reality & end the stupid desh bhagti ?lolzz

mate first look at my flags i am not indian
second if we do some thing like building j 17 it is great we are self sufficient it is good for our aeronautics industry but if they do the same thing how come when they become idiots and over patriotic.i am not saying that tejas is extremely potent plane(i cant comment on its potency as plane is still not in the force) but still it is 4 gen plane much better then mig 21 it is replacing even in its current form.and lets suppose its the worst 4 gen plane in the world will it not improve with time as our jf 17 is improving will it not provide india with the experience necessary to build a 4 gen fighter will it not save them billions. will it not defend their airspace better then mig 21.never ever underestimate your enemy.

 

[dray]

That's the problem here , even if the whole world says the same thing about a stupid decision by the INDIAN pm , who don't have any idea about air force or any fighter jet , even then our Indian friends will keep priasing him over his crazy decesions for the sake of religious based politics ?
They won't listen , their own professionals in their air force , how it will reduce its capabilities to what level ?

What is the problem with his decision? Be specific.

 

[zebra7]

What is the problem with his decision? Be specific.

Sir why you ended the discussion on that particular thread of the texbook biased topic, I was keen spectator there.

 

[karakoram]

you are right it WILL have but it does not. it is not even BVR capable. and who knows what happen next. it took bharat 33+ long years to induct a plane that had blessings from all over the world. it is no match for JFT, not today, not tomorrow and not day after. first let it carry critical weapons/ systems to qualify to compete.

Israeli Avionics
American engine
French design
what is Bharti in it

Oyeee shut up how dare you.... it have most advance indian technology like tyres nuts petrol etc

 

[Dukkar]

beti xperia,tum ja ke khelo .