French mistral for Indian Navy.....

[sancho]

LPD's are cheap and can be built in india with ease.

As I said, even Australia builds them now under licence and if we can build aircraft carries and like you say LPDs, where is the problem of builing an LHD which is a mix of both? Vehicle/cargo storage of the LPD, aircraft hangar and deck of a carrier.

LHD's are massive and in all practicality, they cannot be used for ASW ops as they are slow ships with minimal defences. ASW helicopters on their own cannot act as a full-proof submarine deterrent force. They require the backing of surface assets having TAS/ HMS/ Heavy torpedos etc!

That's not correct, even our frigats and ASW corvetts uses mainly ASW helicopters to detect and attack subs with sonar and torpedos, because they have a way higher range and are faster than the vessels, the capabilities of the vessels are only an addition. Aircraft carriers are doing the same, they send out their helicopters first and then their supporting frigats, or subs.
As I told you before, Japan uses the Hyuga class helicopter carrier in the ASW role! It lacks the well deck of an LPD/LHD, but is in the same size.

I has a displacement of 18000t and is over 30 knots fast, our INS Jalashwa is has a displacement of nearly 17000t and is 20 knots fast.

As I said above, in nowadays you mainly use the higher range and speed of ASW helicopters instead of fielding numbers of vessels that dropping waterbombs, so if you have a helicopter carrier/LHD that can carry numbers of these helicopters, you can cover a way larger area to search and destroy subs and imo that's should be the major goal of IN for the future.

LHD's are more potent platforms when compared to LPD's. I have never said otherwise. I have tried to question the efficacy of these in IN!

IN main interest should be defending the costal area around our mainland and our interests in the Indian Ocean and I don't see how LPDs that are tied up at our docks could be more efficient for this, than helicopter carriers/LHDs.

 

[DMLA]

That's not correct, even our frigats and ASW corvetts uses mainly ASW helicopters to detect and attack subs with sonar and torpedos, because they have a way higher range and are faster than the vessels, the capabilities of the vessels are only an addition. Aircraft carriers are doing the same, they send out their helicopters first and then their supporting frigats, or subs.
As I told you before, Japan uses the Hyuga class helicopter carrier in the ASW role! It lacks the well deck of an LPD/LHD, but is in the same size.

I has a displacement of 18000t and is over 30 knots fast, our INS Jalashwa is has a displacement of nearly 17000t and is 20 knots fast.

As I said above, in nowadays you mainly use the higher range and speed of ASW helicopters instead of fielding numbers of vessels that dropping waterbombs, so if you have a helicopter carrier/LHD that can carry numbers of these helicopters, you can cover a way larger area to search and destroy subs and imo that's should be the major goal of IN for the future.

I am sorry but i disagree. Surface vessels still form the most important element in ASW warfare. Submarine is a stealth platform using its strength to the fullest. It is almost impossible for a helicopter to find a submarine on its own (it will be like finding a needle in a haystack). ASW ship will use its TAS to search for submarines in passive mode by using tactical maneuvers. Sometimes subs (friendly) with ASW ships and helis are used together to "box in" subs and take them out. With modern subs going as fast as 20 knots, it is necessary to have high speed ASW ships for such ops. (mind you it still remains needle-haystack situation! albeit better) "Sensors" are the key not "waterbombs". ASW vessel sensors are much more comprehensive and better than smaller sensors (look at the size of a dipping sonar) on choppers! A huge LHD is nothing more than a lumbering target for the enemy!

Construction of such huge ships (as I have stated already) are impossible for indians to handle. Asking others (like australia) to manufacture them will be very costly. Look at how long it takes for MDL to make a 4500 ton frigate!!!

I must add at this stage that this whole discussion is moot. Be it LHD or LPD or carriers, they should (and in all likelihood will be) escorted by ASW ships.

Since this discussion is getting dragged on (and it is obvious that we hold differing views), I propose we end the discussion now and wait for more information from the navy.

 

[sancho]

It is almost impossible for a helicopter to find a submarine on its own (it will be like finding a needle in a haystack). ASW ship will use its TAS to search for submarines in passive mode by using tactical maneuvers. Sometimes subs (friendly) with ASW ships and helis are used together to "box in" subs and take them out. With modern subs going as fast as 20 knots, it is necessary to have high speed ASW ships for such ops. (mind you it still remains needle-haystack situation! albeit better) "Sensors" are the key not "waterbombs". ASW vessel sensors are much more comprehensive and better than smaller sensors (look at the size of a dipping sonar) on choppers! A huge LHD is nothing more than a lumbering target for the enemy!

Mate, what will be more effective to find your needle? A single vessel with towed sonar, or several aircrafts that can cover a wider area, useing sonobuoys, diping sonar and not to forget their base vessels?
Also if it's impossible for ASW aircrafts to find subs, where is the use of P8I MPAs?
I don't deny that the systems they carry are less capable as the sonars at ships, but even with inferior systems they can make use of their speed and range advantage to cover a wider area much fast. So to search and destroy a single sub, these aircrafts are send out first with the vessels following. That's why such carrier groupes, be it AC, or LHDs will be more effective in the ASW role, then just sending out frigats.

Construction of such huge ships (as I have stated already) are impossible for indians to handle.

You claim that they are huge, but I think I showed you clear enough that they are in the same size like LPDs, which is logical of course, because both are ment to carry the same cargo, vehicles and troops internal. So there is defnitely no problem for Indian docks to build them too.

Be it LHD or LPD or carriers, they should (and in all likelihood will be) escorted by ASW ships.

No doubt about that, I am talking only about the clear increase of capabilities with an LHD, compared to LPDs.

As I said, keep your opinion if you want, but the advantages of LHDs over LPDs can't be denied!

 

[DMLA]

Mate, what will be more effective to find your needle? A single vessel with towed sonar, or several aircrafts that can cover a wider area, useing sonobuoys, diping sonar and not to forget their base vessels?
Also if it's impossible for ASW aircrafts to find subs, where is the use of P8I MPAs?I don't deny that the systems they carry are less capable as the sonars at ships, but even with inferior systems they can make use of their speed and range advantage to cover a wider area much fast. So to search and destroy a single sub, these aircrafts are send out first with the vessels following. That's why such carrier groupes, be it AC, or LHDs will be more effective in the ASW role, then just sending out frigats.



You claim that they are huge, but I think I showed you clear enough that they are in the same size like LPDs, which is logical of course, because both are ment to carry the same cargo, vehicles and troops internal. So there is defnitely no problem for Indian docks to build them too.


No doubt about that, I am talking only about the clear increase of capabilities with an LHD, compared to LPDs.

As I said, keep your opinion if you want, but the advantages of LHDs over LPDs can't be denied!

Where have I said that aircrafts are useless? I am saying all are important with the ship being the most important element.
Please don't misinterpret what I am saying!

LHD's are bigger (atleast most of the designs out there & 30-40 m is a huge difference) and afaik, IN is thinking of 170m long LPD's! LHD's are more complex and require a lot more resources/ money to operationalize.

LHD's are slower (and thus are not suited for ASW) while AC's are faster. AC's can be used as an element in ASW (though not advisable)! IMO cheaper LPD's with more dedicated AC's is the way to go. I have NEVER denied any said advantage of LHD's over LPD's!!! I have infact said otherwise. I have only questioned their need in IN? I see LPD's to be adequate!

I think we have had enough discussion on this issue! Let us wait till we see what IN decides! Then we can continue!

 

[sancho]

Where have I said that aircrafts are useless? I am saying all are important with the ship being the most important element.
Please don't misinterpret what I am saying!

You said:

It is almost impossible for a helicopter to find a submarine on its own

and these use the same sonobuoys like MPAs, but also dipping sonar.
Sorry if I misinterpreted it, but almost impossible means useless right?

LHD's are bigger (atleast most of the designs out there & 30-40 m is a huge difference) and afaik, IN is thinking of 170m long LPD's! LHD's are more complex and require a lot more resources/ money to operationalize.

As I told you before, they are not! Similar displacement and beam and the length of a ship is of course variable. They are also not more complex, because the only difference is the deck layout, but internal design is similar as you can see on the following graphics:

Mistral class LHD:

San Antonio class LPD:

Both are meant to carry troops, their vehilces and cargo, also the landing crafts to deploy these. That's why the interior must be similar, with the only difference that the LHD integrates also the design of an aircraft carrier with a bigger hangar and a flight deck above it. That exaclty is the advantage of an LHD, that it is a mix both and that's what makes it multi role capable and more useful too!

I think we have had enough discussion on this issue! Let us wait till we see what IN decides! Then we can continue!

No problem, I just pointed out that an LHD is clearly more capable and efficient than an LPD!

 

[angeldemon_007]

@ sancho
Nice pics of Mistral and San Antonio class LPD.
I think India has a huge maritime border (Sea on 3 sides which happened to be very busy trade route and some of them very volatile eg: Arabian sea because of pirates) and many unguarded islands which we have to admit that, they might be the next target of terrorists or pirates or countries like Pakistan and especially China which has a base so close to Andaman & Nicobar, Amphibious Warships like INS Jalaswa will be important. We definitely need to mobalise troops and MBTs and i dont think AC will help at that time. Many of these warships are as big as our indigenous AC and less cheaper with a capability of carrying armed forces and helping in disaster like Tsunami which cannot be overlooked. We can look for :

Mistral class (France):
420-600 million$ ) x 4 = 1.68-2.4 billion $
16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
four landing barges
70 vehicles including 13 Leclerc tanks/40-strong Leclerc tanks[5] 450 soldiers.
Juan Carlos (Spain):
481.752 million $ x 4 = 1.927 billion $
902 soldiers
46 Leopard 2 tanks
30 aircraft
four points for heavy helicopters of the CH-47 Chinook type
Dokdo class (South Korea):
293.2 million $ x 4 = 1.173 billion $
720 marines
10 tanks
10 trucks
7 amphibious assault vehicles
10 helicopters
two LCAC hovercraft

Now is the time for India to upgrade some of its shipyard for this capability. India should take 2 from the vendor and 2 it should make in its own shipyard. By the time vendor is busy in making the 2 warships we should develop the infrastructure because Cochin yard is busy till 2017(i believe 2020-22) so we should not depend on them.
I think 4 billion $ is too much money, we should select cheaper warship like korean warship or even spanish one is better.