flamer84
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So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.I know, but price increase and failure to achieve objectives is once again ruined by lack of commitment from European partners who always,always ! cut down on orders in mid program thus hammering available funds.After that,objectives in the program just get delayed and fall like dominos.What should have been a superb machine once again turns into a fiasco,just like the Tiger,just like the NH90,just like the Horizone destroyers ,just like the Euro common UAV programs,just like the Eurofighter.Most of the programs i've listed will achieve their goals but with delays and huge increase in costs,some won't even reach full capability (see the Horizone who should have had 64VLS not 48).It's a f'ucking disgrace !
The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.Can someone elucidate why the A400 program is a failure?
I get that its delayed and overbudget...but that is the case with almost all big ticket military developments even in the US.
So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.
The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.
@SvenSvensonov @Nihonjin1051 @Peter C @Georgeclark @AMDR @C130
Since the fiasco of the A400M and that capacity of refuelling of the aircraft has been abandonned,France will order a dozen of C130Js Super Hercule.
A team of the DGA (it is the French Government Defense procurement agency responsible for the program management, development and purchase of weapon systems for the French military) is currently in the US to negociate a deal....
Since the need of the French army is urgent,we will take the aircrafts from the production line which was supposed to serve the US ARMY.
The deal could be finalized very soon
La France va acquérir une dizaine de C-130 - Air et Cosmos
These aircrafts would probably serve the special forces..
The A400M program is sadly a big fiasco... the price is increasing,i won't talk about the delays.....
And when there are no other European/French alternatives,you have to look somewhere else..
So much bragging of your European power. China will fill that void. We don't have greedy defense contractor.
The price is too high for further development. Typical western defense contractor ways of doing things.
As if western , Russian and American will give you full TOT? Nobody will provide that extend of tech transfer. Our AESA radar offer to turkey is the best out of all contender and we are the only bidder not chicken out like S-300, patriot and aster who refuse to test their missile according to turkish require scenario. We are confident of our product and only our missile hit all intended targets.No, you just have defense contractors that don't live up to the contracts they signed. Ask the Turks about their T-Loramids tender and how the Chinese contractor is failing to live up to its tech transfer obligations.
Turkey's T-Loramids technology transfer troubles - IHS Jane's 360
Your contractors are just as poor as the Western ones you're demonizing
Superb is useless if it has an exorbitant price tag. No one can afford it . Chinese can also produce very good quality product but the price will not be general for clients.It's not about the contractor,it's the client.What China has and i'll give you that ,is a centralised leadership wich has the will to do what it needs to be done.European products are superb,yes superb is the word but they are undermined by the political class.I mean,in Germany for example,they are delaying PUMA IFV induction because it wasn't certified to carry pregnant women-stupid delays-increase in cost.For all the democracy fan that i am,i'm starting to think that whole Europe needs a dictator,like in Roman times,with absolute power granted by a Senate for 10-12 years time ,just to put things into shape and do what needs to be done .
As if western , Russian and American will give you full TOT?
You are very wrong. Their terms of TOT is not unrestricted transfer of all technology.Wrong again buddy!
DOD prioritizes tech transfer to trusted Asian allies -- FCW
USAMRMC Medical Technology Transfer: Home
The US military offers full-tech transfer on a number of projects, Turkey is a trusted US ally, so is France, both would be given exceptions to US tech transfer restrictions.
In the T-Loramids program, it wasn't tech transfer, but cost that was the undoing of the US and European entry.
But all of this is off topic and let's not continue this discussion here.
Superb is useless if it has an exorbitant price tag. No one can afford it . Chinese can also produce very good quality product but the price will not be general for clients.
As for domestic product, central government ensure contractor control the development cost strictly. Everything centralize so that price will not rise uneccesssry.
That does not change the fact, it kill the tech. Isn't this A400M a good case study of my analogy? Partner cuts becos delay and delay and top of that price rise to a horrible level. You cannot blame partner if they decide to cut order, right?Because you start the program with a goal in mind and with firm orders from the state.When you start the program in Europe with 200 units firm order (just an example) only to cut that order to 120 mid program,or even to 80 at the end of the program,costs will rise.Add to that the fact that some partners suddenly start ask for changes to what was a certain requirement,also in mid program,and you'll have further escalation of costs.
That does not change the fact, it kill the tech. Isn't this A400M a good case study of my analogy? Partner cuts becos delay and delay and top of that price rise to a horrible level. You cannot blame partner if they decide to cut order, right?
We have the money and we have a centralise government to ensure country objective first and not greedy contractor pocket first.Most of the time partners operate cuts just because they slash funds out of thin air.They done it with the Horizone,Tiger,NH90,A400.That in turn causes delays and increase of costs.
Now,you can't really say that delays don't ever happen in China to because information is simply not that transparent.
Nothing will last forever, if you think just becos they earn that title in the past means future will too without working out a workable plan or being hardworking then be prepare to be overtake by others.There is also a big difference between.
Exploring and inventing new phenomenon
Compared to
Learning what exist and copying it.
---------///-/-
There can not be comparison between pioneers and followers. Europe is mother of invention from wheel to god partical.
That is why you see more and more project of Chinese military. Isn't J-20 a classic example. Due to the exorbitant price for Europe to develop a 5th gen fighter, they totally abandon it.
Our J-20 is going to enter service soon and I have yet to even see a model of a so called European 5th gen fighter project intend to go ahead.Never followed vone in the first place so there was nothing to be abandoned.I explained to you allready why,no need to repeat myself.